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Messages - EdSolo

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46
Watto's Junk Yard / Re: Star Trek
« on: May 29, 2013, 01:24 PM »
Chalk it up to a difference of opinions then.  I think the final duel is completely within reason given multiple factors.  If you want to call out gaps in realism or probability, I'd bring up things like the crack stormtroopers' inability to hit anyone or the likelihood that the alliance gives Luke a ship to fly against the Death Star after just meeting him.  There are lots of convenient plot points in scifi that are just necessary to tell a good story.

That is my point in all of this.  People seem to be nitpicking the death out of the transporter thing and thus saying Star Trek is a poor movie when it is a similar plot device that is used in numerous movies.  I think people are being overly harsh on Star Trek just because they want to hate it.

47
Watto's Junk Yard / Re: Star Trek
« on: May 29, 2013, 07:27 AM »
I am amazed that the "How did Luke beat Vader?  argument is still going on.  I swear I talked about this 10 years ago on this site.  Luke beat Vader for a few reasons...

1.  He had to, and he believed in himself.  Ok.  This is cheesy, but has an underdog team ever beat a undefeated team?  Yes.  Things happen in real life that are unexplainable.

2.  It's a movie, not a video game or RPG.  Meaning, yes, Vader is technically more powerful, but Luke won.  (See reason #1)

3.  Luke was fighting for his life.  People can do amazing things under stress.  Again, look at real life, not games.

Ugh...I could go on and on...

It really isn't a debate of "how did he do it" more so a debate of "is it logical it happened".  It is more of "if this were real" type of scenario.  Since there was an endgame in ROTJ, yes Luke had to win or it would have been a real depressing story and not a proper end to a trilogy of movies.  Of course their are underdogs that win in real life, but the odds are against it.  I put this on the level of 14, 15 or 16 seed winning the NCAA tournament more than the NY Giants beating the undefeated Patriots in the Superbowl.

Vader was fighting for his life as well.  I would think he was pretty aware the Palpatine wanted Luke for an apprentice.

48
Watto's Junk Yard / Re: Star Trek
« on: May 29, 2013, 07:22 AM »
Even with Vader being damaged or being less than he once was, he was still facing someone completely untrained in lightsaber fighting and got his butt kicked.  More to the point, what additional lightsaber training did Luke receive between ESB and ROTJ.  Vader handled him easily in ESB....to the point he was essentially toying with Luke most of the fight.  Isn't it only a year between ESB and ROTJ?  You can't really bring up the Padme angle since she didn't exist at the time Lucas made ROTJ.  Heck, she should have survived ROTS according to Leia's remembrance of her.  Unless of course we are to believe she somehow recalls that she was pretty and sad for the all of three seconds that she saw her.

Totally disagree. 

Luke didn't have training partners obviously, but he could have been training with remotes as we saw in ANH.  I seriously doubt Vader was doing the same or getting any more training from the Emperor.  Luke should be getting better, Vader should be getting worse.

Luke is entering his prime from an age and development standpoint.  Vader is getting old and hindered by his armor.  When you can't feel your own legs and arms and have had the same prosthetics for 20 years, I have to think your ability to sword fight is greatly reduced.  Yes, a limited time since Bespin, but health rarely follows a static decline.  Luke's got motivation on his side as well - what did Vader really care about by ROTJ?

The Padme angle is totally valid, or more directly the family angle.  Luke doesn't install good in Vader, he helps bring the good back to the surface.  And since we know there was still good in him, it's natural to assume that even a fairly bad person would still have reservations about killing his own son - practically the only family he has left.  Pretty hard to channel your best when faced with the prospect of killing your boy.  Anyone with a son should see that pretty clearly.

As for Leia remembering her mom, there's a ton of logical explanations there too.  She's tuned into the force, so maybe she picked up her mom's sadness at birth and carried that forward.  Did she see visions of her mom's life, similar to what Anakin saw of his mom?  Seems pretty likely that Anakin's daughter could channel similar abilities, even if only for a few years.  Do we even know that she's talking about her real mom?  Heck, maybe she's even referring to Breha Organa, her adoptive mother. 

It's all subject to your own interpretation I guess, but I don't find any faults with how either of these issues were addressed in the movie.

You are looking at this with a lot of revisionist history.  You have to look at this as ROTJ in 1983 as a stand alone movie and what is shown on screen in order to make the comparison with Star Trek in terms of being illogical.  The gripes that I have seen about Into Darkness mostly don't deal with previous Trek.  As for Luke, sure Luke may have been training with remote, but he also may have been running so many missions for the Rebellion that he didn't have time to train.  The only lightsaber training that is the top level of cannon is his initial training with a remote in ANH.  Additionally, training with a remote isn't for dueling, it is for blaster deflection.  He had one previous one on one duel and he lost badly.

As for Vader's health, in the OT there isn't any evidence that his health is in a rapid decline.  A lot of the poor health of Vader stuff is from the EU.  Until Luke beats him down, Vader appears to be fine.

True that Luke has more motivation, but it wasn't like Vader was on the defensive until he brought up Leia, which sent Luke into a rage.  Luke's victory serves the purpose of the story, not the purposes of logic.  It is hard to believe that Luke's first brush with the darkside would increase his focus since he has been trained to use the Force when he is calm and at peace.  It would give him the extra power, but probably not the focus to wield it properly.  Vader really only makes the decision to save Luke when the Emperor is frying Luke with lightning and Luke is begging for Vader's help.  Who really knows what would happen if Vader turned Luke's anger against him and ended up disarming Luke.  Maybe he kills him on Palpatine's command and secretly decides to turn Leia instead.

The reason I said Padme was invalid is because when ROTJ was made, Padme didn't exist.  There wasn't a story written for her yet.  As for Leia's memory, it is of Padme or the idea that would be Padme in the future.  Luke specifically says "do you remember your mother, your real mother?".  It is easy to speculate about the Force and use that is a possible way to have these memories, but it is a real stretch with what is shown on screen.

49
Watto's Junk Yard / Re: Star Trek
« on: May 28, 2013, 03:20 PM »
I had a totally different take on that fight than most people I guess.  I didn't see it as Luke being that much better, but as Vader/Anakin being that much worse, which is a totally different thing.  Sure, Luke had some skills and was more aggressive than usual given the situation.  On the flip side, Vader's literally not the man he used to be.  He's much older, has been living in the same crap armor for two decades, he likely hasn't had much for sparring partners for several years, AND he's facing off against his own son - the only link he has back to Padme (along with Leia I Guess).  Maybe he's just not trying all that hard given the circumstances.  Do people really need more excuses why he wouldn't be as good as he was pre-armor?  I don't think he was getting stronger under Palpy - he was getting weaker, which is why Palps wanted a fresh Luke to replace him.

I don't really see how this relates to Star Trek plot holes anyway.  The transporter only works part of the time?  Seems plausable to me.  No one else has trouble with their cable screwing up or DVR not recording correctly?  Do you never have issues with connecting to a new wireless signal?  Your lawnmower or snowblower always starts up just fine with no issues?  Hell, I can't get the vending machine in the office to work half the time.  It's much more realistic to have some of the tech fail now and then in these movies (in addition to make a more dramatic story).  I always thought that was a great move by Lucas with the Falcon...its a totally tricked out space muscle car and sometimes pulls off amazing tricks that other ships couldn't match.  But it just as often fails when they need it most because that's just what happens with tech/mechanics in real life.

My point was that Trek seems to be getting nitpicked to death with the "this plot is not logical" argument so I drew a comparison with Star Wars since this is a Star Wars sight.  Even with Vader being damaged or being less than he once was, he was still facing someone completely untrained in lightsaber fighting and got his butt kicked.  More to the point, what additional lightsaber training did Luke receive between ESB and ROTJ.  Vader handled him easily in ESB....to the point he was essentially toying with Luke most of the fight.  Isn't it only a year between ESB and ROTJ?  You can't really bring up the Padme angle since she didn't exist at the time Lucas made ROTJ.  Heck, she should have survived ROTS according to Leia's remembrance of her.  Unless of course we are to believe she somehow recalls that she was pretty and sad for the all of three seconds that she saw her.

50
Watto's Junk Yard / Re: Star Trek
« on: May 28, 2013, 07:21 AM »
Even gimped, a Sith Lord with full Jedi training and 20+ years under Palpatine can't match a kid with maybe a month's worth of training, with almost zero lightsaber training? 

Luke gave into his hatred in ROTJ, and that made him stronger...until he came to his senses.  The force was always strong within in him, anyway.

Still pretty weak, since both Palpatine and Vader were trying to get him to do that anyway.  Luke didn't seem to have any loss of focus during his first brush with the dark side.  I would think Vader would be prepared for this outcome since both he and Palpatine have been trying to turn Luke.

It seems easy to give the lack of logic in this scenario, which is needed for story purposed, a pass while Star Trek is being lambasted for being illogical.

51
Watto's Junk Yard / Re: Star Trek
« on: May 23, 2013, 10:32 AM »
I think the hardest thing was (and is) disconnecting my ideas of what certain characters are or look like and not try to compare them to those in TOS.

The way I handle that is to remind myself that Nero's actions changed everything so that they aren't the same person we saw in TOS.   Spock is a prime example.  Quento's Spock in the 2009 movie seemed much more accepting of his human half.  TOS Spock would never have had a relationship with a human.  Nimoy's Spock only really accepted his human half around Star Trek 4.

Look at Carol Marcus, she was in the biological sciences in the original universe (don't think there is any info on her original universe father) and is now a military scientists specializing in weapons systems.

Chapel is still a nurse, but Kirk banged her so she wants to be far away from him and will probably never serve as McCoy's nurse.

52
Watto's Junk Yard / Re: Star Trek
« on: May 23, 2013, 10:27 AM »
Again, there's maybe 2 good Trek films. 

.  Look at Vader vs. Luke in ROTJ.  As far as we were shown, when Luke fights Vader on the Death Star II, this is only the second time he has ever dueled another person.  Yet, he kicks the crap out of one of the best lightsaber fighters of all time.  Not too logical or realistic especially considering his very limited Jedi training.  The only lightsaber training we see is with the remote in ANH.

Anakin was  great lightsaber fighter....maybe (his only victory was against Dooku)...Vader is quadruple amputee that can barely breathe with life support armor. We only see Vader see battle a martyr-happy old Obi-Wan and an barely trained Luke. NONE OF THE EU MATTERS....it's what we saw on screen.  It's not a strecth to say that Yoda or Kenobi, even 20 years after ROTS, could've chopped Vader's cyborg ass into bits and pieces....but Anakin's part of the prophecy had to be fufilled.

Even gimped, a Sith Lord with full Jedi training and 20+ years under Palpatine can't match a kid with maybe a month's worth of training, with almost zero lightsaber training?  All we see is Luke wield a lightsaber against a remote, a Wampa, Vader in ESB, Jabba's guards (one of which manages to shoot him in the hand), Boba Fett's lasso, and a speeder bike.  While we don't see Anakin's training on screen, he becomes a Padawan and trains with Kenobi in the ten year gap between TPM and AOTC.  Heck Anakin gets about as much training from Qui-Gonn in TPM as Luke does from Kenobi in ANH.  To have Luke beat down Vader would be like taking a group of NFL probowlers (heck, I'll even go with any players in their mid 30's) and getting a group of high schoolers together who have never played football, let them practice for four weeks with the NFL coach of their choice and then have them play said probowlers, but without the coach (since Obi-wan and Yoda are dead and can't interfere) and expect them to win.

53
Watto's Junk Yard / Re: Star Trek
« on: May 22, 2013, 10:05 PM »
I think everyone is expecting way too much from this movie.  I finally saw it tonight and thought it was great.  This is coming from a Trekkie who watched TOS in syndication when I was three or four.  To compare the new actors to the old isn't really a fair comparison.  When Nero came through the blackhole, the universe changed.  Chris Pine's Kirk is no longer Shatner's Kirk.  Uhura, Chekov and Sulu were all brought a lot closer to Kirk's age.  In TOS, they would have never been a Starfleet Academy at the same time as Kirk, even if he went a bit later than he originally would have.  Spock has also been shown to have grown up a bit differently with embracing his human half a lot earlier than original Spock.

As for the plot being illogical, has anyone seen any of the other Star Trek movies or even the series?  There have been a lot of illogical moments.  Saying the transporters only work when they need to is a typical type of plot device used in countless movies and TV shows.  Heck, our own beloved Star Wars has a lot of illogical moments.  Look at Vader vs. Luke in ROTJ.  As far as we were shown, when Luke fights Vader on the Death Star II, this is only the second time he has ever dueled another person.  Yet, he kicks the crap out of one of the best lightsaber fighters of all time.  Not too logical or realistic especially considering his very limited Jedi training.  The only lightsaber training we see is with the remote in ANH.  In case people forgot, here are the basic plots of all the Star Trek movies:

Star Trek The Motion Picture - old NASA probe is made sentient by some alien race (retconed in several sources as possible the Borg), travels back to Earth obliterating everything in its path to try to find its maker.  Spock can sense it all the way from Vulcan and gives up his Kolhinar training so he can mind meld with it.  Probe essentially assimilates bald chick (never before seen alien species) to speak for it.  Once they figure out it is the Voyager probe and have to send deactivation codes, Voyager blows up its receiver so "the creator" has to enter codes manually and become assimilated.  Voyager then "ascends" to a higher being.

Star Trek 2 - Starfleet completely forgets they have marooned a genetically enhanced despot on a planet and sends a ship to scope out a neighboring planet.  When said ship enters the system, somehow they can't tell that a planet is missing since the planet they want to check out has exploded and ruining the planet that said despot was marooned on.  In typical TOS fashion, both Captain and First Officer beam down to the planet, are captured and then controlled be ear wigs.  Khan takes over their ship, goes on a revenge manhunt for Kirk, and steals Genesis, a magic missile that can create life from lifelessness.  After a final battle, Spock sacrifices himself to save the Enterprise, while Khan blows up and the explosion of the Genesis device creates an entire planet out of a nebula.

Star Trek 3 - Starfleet has sent a ship to investigate the Genesis planet.  Turns out Spock's mind is in McCoy's head, and his "dead" body that was shot in torpedo to the Genesis planet is actually alive...and a young boy...who is rapidly aging, just like the planet.  Turns out Kirk's son cheated and used some illegal tech to make the Genesis device.  Klingons catch wind of all this and want the Genesis device as a weapon.  Kirk and crew break the law and steal the Enterprise to help Spock.  Fortunately, Scotty was working on the one ship that could have pursued them and sabotaged it.  Enterprise gets taken out by the Klingons, but Kirk tricks them and kills almost all of them by blowing up the Enterprise.  Ultimately Kirk beats the Klingon captain, saves Spock and takes him to Vulcan where his "soul" is taken out of McCoy and put back in his own body.

Star Trek 4 - Another alien probe has come to Earth and is devastating the planet.  Kirk and crew a returning to Earth to face the music for crimes from ST3 when they receive Earth's distress call.  Spock figures out the probes communication is whale song.  The only way to save the planet is to slingshot around the sun and go back in time to the 1980's.  Hilarity ensues as the crew attempt to capture a pair of whales.  Eventually they succeed and return to the present and save the planet.  All charges are dropped against the Enterprise crew, except for Kirk's insubordination.  He is demoted from Admiral to Captain, given command of the new Enterprise A, and is sent on another five year mission with the entire TOS crew...all of which are at the rank of Captain or full Commander while back in the TV series, the second highest ranking officer was Spock who was only a Lt. Commander.

Star Trek 5 - Spock's half-brother, the happy go lucky full Vulcan Sybok, has an empathic ability to feel others pain and release them of it.  He and his band of merry men go to a planet where the Federation, Klingon and Romulan ambassadors are having negotiations.  His ploy is to hold them hostage so that Starfleet sends a vessel so he can take control of it.  The Enterprise is sent and Sybok ends up in control of it, eventually converting several crew members.  He wants to go to the center of the galaxy to find a mythical planet, that happens to contain God.  Kirk mets God and is unimpressed.  God needs the Enterprise to leave the planet.  Kirk asks God what he needs with a starship.  A battle ensues and God is defeated.

Star Trek 6 - A Klingon moon that provides much of their power explodes in an industrial accident.  The collapse of the Klingon Empire is eminent.  Kirk and crew (minus Sulu who has been promoted to Captain and given his own ship) are sent as a peace delegation to meet with the Klingons.  After a lovely dinner, the Klingon ship is fired upon (later revealed to be shot from a cloaked Klingon ship that can actually fire while cloaked) and Kirk surrenders when the Klingons threaten retaliation.  Kirk and McCoy beam over to the Klingon vessel and find the Chancellor dying.  McCoy can't save him and after a sham trial Kirk and McCoy are sent to a prison planet.  They are eventually rescued and begin to unravel the plot.  Turns out it was a conspiracy between the Chancellors War chief and a Starfleet Admiral with the help of a Vulcan crew member of the Enterprise.

Generations - Whoopie Goldberg used to live in a magical place called the Nexus which is a ribbon floating through space.  It is a destructive force that can tear up star ships which happens to the Enterprise B on their shakedown cruise.  Captain Kirk is presumed to be killed on this cruise, but is actually sucked into the Nexus while Whoopie and our villain are pulled out.  In typical fashion, the main Enterprise crew is get rank heavy as Worf is promoted to Commander and goes through a holodeck ritual.  Picard finds out his brother and his brother's family have been killed and becomes quite weepy for most of the movie.  Meanwhile, our villain has decided the best way back into the Nexus is not by flying a ship into, but by blowing up stars to change the gravity in star systems so he can direct the Nexus to another planet.  Picard goes to stop him, but is too late and is sucked into the Nexus.  He finds Kirk and an "echo" of Whoopie says he can leave at any time and go anywhere.  He and Kirk go back and defeat our villain but Kirk is killed in the process.  Oh, and Data installed an emotion chip.

First Contact - A single Borg cube is back and ready to kick the crap out of Earth.  The Enterprise is sent to the neutral zone to monitor Romulan activity.  Picard says screw it and saves the day since all the other ships can do crap.  The cube is destroyed, but they manage to launch a sphere that goes back in time.  Picard follows and blow up the sphere that was firing on the site of Cochranes first warp ship.  Fortunately the Enterprise's shields were down so the Borg could beam aboard and take over the ship.  Half the crew beam down to the planet to help make sure Cochrane completes his first warp flight so First Contact happens.  The other half stay on board to fight the Borg, who have a never seen before Queen.  The Queen tempts Data with humanity, but eventually the crew prevail, maintain history and can conveniently replicate the Borg time travel to return to the present.

Insurrection -  Data goes haywire on a magic planet where everyone stays young and can even deage or regrow eyes.  Previous inhabitants of the planet have come back to steal all the magic deaging powder in space around the planet.  Turns out Starfleet is in on it, and has created a holodeck ship that they hid in a lake and were going to relocate all the inhabitants to another planet.  Eventually Picard and crew figure it out and save the day.

Nemesis - The Romulans clone Picard in hopes to infiltrate Starfleet.  They abandon the plan the leave the clone to rot on the mining planet Remus.  The clone and the Remans get revenge and vaporize the entire Romulan Senate.  The clone becomes Praetor and lures in Picard and crew for "peace" negotiations.  His true goal is to destroy Picard and the Federation with his giant ship that can spew lethal radiation.  Eventually the Enterprise wins, but only with the noble sacrifice of Commander Data.  Worf becomes first officer and Riker finally gets his promotion to Captain and his own ship.

Star Trek Reboot - Romulus and Remus are destroyed by a super, super, super nova.  Nimoy Spock manages to stop the nova with red matter that can collapse stars into black holes.  Spock and Nero are sucked into the black hole and sent to the past.  Nero causes trouble, eventually killing Kirk's father, who was a major influence in Kirk's life.  Baby Kirk escapes and the entire Star Trek universe as we knew it is changed.  Nero destroys Vulcan and is eventually stopped by Kirk.  Captain Pike is promoted to Admiral and Kirk is given the rank of Captain straight out of Starfleet Academy and command of the Enterprise.

How many of those plots sound logical? 

I do think I could hear Shatner screaming when Nimoy came on the screen.  Nimoy's appearance makes him the actor with the most Trek film appearances.

54
JD Sports Forum! / Re: NHL 2013
« on: May 15, 2013, 02:17 PM »
Monday was like the Pittsburgh series all over again.  The refs may have been a bit biased, but you still have to score.

Really?  I thought the refs let them play.  I believe there was what 3 or 4 penalties called and there should have been tons more.  There was a missed elbow call, a few hookings, slashing, roughings, etc.  I just think the refs didn't want to influence the outcome of the game.

But you're right.  Teams have to score.  When both teams have some of their top scorers not making goals, it takes a lot for the others to step up.  There were some great (hell, awesome) scoring chances on both sides that Lundqvist and Holtby stopped.  Those two really made the series (even if Holtby let 5 by in game 7).

I'm comparing the penalties in game 6 versus 7.  There seemed to be a higher than average rate of calls against the Caps in game 6 that the refs let go in game 7.  There didn't seem to be any balance.

55
The Sequel Trilogy / Re: Star Wars Sequel Trilogy Speculation
« on: May 15, 2013, 02:13 PM »
I would call a movie based on political disputes over a trade route a poor story.

Seconded, what an abysmal mess that was.

Yet we all loved it and bought every toy related to it.

It wouldn't say everyone loved it.  I would attribute a large portion of its success on the fact that it was the first Star Wars movie made in 16 years at the time it was released.

Then where was that criticism at the time?  For some time, the only thing SW community was outwardly critical of in The Phantom Menace was Jar Jar Binks.  And then when Episode II finally came out, THEN the floodgates opened and people were hating on TPM more outwardly. 

Personally, I've found the delayed criticism of the prequels to be more objectionable than the movies themselves.  And I've always looked at that criticism through the filter of an audience that saw the OT as kids, and they wanted to relive that level of excitement as 20/30/40 somethings.  That was never going to happen, and no filmmaker could live up to expectations that high.

Where were you at the time?  Movie critics weren't too hot on TPM as I recall.  On-line communities were also a lot bigger by AOTC as compared to when TPM came out in 1999 so the hating was as in your face as it was by 2002.  Many Star Wars fans weren't pleased with TPM and it just wasn't Jar Jar.  One big gripe was that Obi-Wan was Qui-Gon's apprentice and not Yoda's apprentice.  Young Ani was pretty universally bashed as well.  I was certainly disappointed that the story was poor.  I remember sitting in the theater thinking that I hoped the movie got better.  It was just an age thing either.  Lucas made a poor story.  He was much more interested in special effects and digital filming than actually telling a good story.  If he had given up some control as he did with ESB and ROTJ, the PT trilogy could have probably been a lot better.

56
JD Sports Forum! / Re: NHL 2013
« on: May 15, 2013, 10:10 AM »
Possibly, but the Caps had more penalties on average called against them as compared to any team in the playoffs.  To me, game 6 looked liked the refs were trying to push the series to 7 games.  Still, it is all on the Caps that they are abysmal in game 7's, especially on home ice.

57
The Sequel Trilogy / Re: Star Wars Sequel Trilogy Speculation
« on: May 15, 2013, 10:07 AM »
I would call a movie based on political disputes over a trade route a poor story.

Seconded, what an abysmal mess that was.

Yet we all loved it and bought every toy related to it.

It wouldn't say everyone loved it.  I would attribute a large portion of its success on the fact that it was the first Star Wars movie made in 16 years at the time it was released.

58
JD Sports Forum! / Re: NHL 2013
« on: May 15, 2013, 06:57 AM »
The Caps have a major problem with series play.  If the playoffs were a series of games against different teams, they could do well (ie. a different opponent every night).  They pulled off numerous winning streaks during the season.  Once they have to play the same team for seven games, they fall apart, especially in game 7's.  Monday was like the Pittsburgh series all over again.  The refs may have been a bit biased, but you still have to score.

59
The Sequel Trilogy / Re: Star Wars Sequel Trilogy Speculation
« on: May 15, 2013, 06:52 AM »
I would call a movie based on political disputes over a trade route a poor story.

60
The Sequel Trilogy / Re: Star Wars Sequel Trilogy Speculation
« on: May 14, 2013, 07:14 AM »
Saying that Lucas "finished the story" isn't entirely true.  No matter how many times he has denied it, Lucas stated in the past that he had planned twelve or nine movies in the saga, depending on when he did some interviews.  It is pretty well documented that he has stated both before his statements that he only ever planned six movies.  Lucas was involved in the Clone Wars cartoon as well.  Heck, the articles on the Disney sale said he had story treatments for the sequel trilogy and that he would be a consultant.  Honestly, I think that the PT shows that Lucas lost his touch.  They were poor stories with poor dialogue for the most part.   I don't see how these movies will be any worse than TPM or AOTC.

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