Author Topic: Regime Change...  (Read 1064 times)

Offline Jesse James

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Regime Change...
« on: June 8, 2003, 04:37 AM »
I was thinking about this tonight because it's 4 a.m., I can't sleep, and I think I have a chemical imbalance.

Anyway, So we see the political climate in Episode One right?  It's a half-@$$ed democracy of sorts, where not only do individual planets have representation but also financial institutions, and Business organizations...  It's also likely that trade guilds and labor organizations have some say in the galactic political process as well.

At the same time, it's this obviously corrupt and very slow process that leads to a civil war.

The "Separatists", or Confederacy join together to form an independant government aside from the Republic.  The Republic doesn't want this...  The most "recent" event we can liken this to on Earth (That the majority of us reading/contributing to this topic can relate to anyway) is the U.S. Civil War...  The Confederate States of America seceeded from the United States of America over individual rights.

It's similar in a way...  

Now, we're led to believe the leaders of the Separatists are inheritly evil by Episode Two.  I don't necessarily BELIEVE they're all bad (Though I think it's established the Neimodians are).  EU has established several planets joining the secession as well who are leaving because they're genuinely fed up with the crap government handed them by the Republic.

OK, so by this we see that regime change was needed, right?  I mean, WE know the Republic was crap...  

Problems could abound in the Republic's world that we have no clue of...  We know the Naboo conflict was one issue, and thinking of it in Earth terms it's as if the whole of our world's population were overthrown by an invading force, with millions of casualties...  That's a mass issue.  That's the equivalent of World War 2 happening within a month or so, for an example.

That's ONE conflict out of who knows how many other civil wars, conflicts and other issues that can be directly blamed upon the Republic's very poor structure.

OK, so the "dark times" come...  The Clone Wars end, and the Empire takes over...  The Empire gives some "System's rights" up until the events of A New Hope we know, because it's not until the Death Star's completion that the Emperor dissolves the Senate.  

The Empire brings with it a change of rules I guess...  In some EU writing, the Empire's got some "fine points" set out that you cannot possibly get from movies that show it as 100% evil.  For instance the Empire sets up control on trade so that groups like the Trade Fed. cannot pull their blockade BS.  The Empire restricts arms trading, and expands space exploration/colonization.  The Empire takes a personal interest in every colonized world, either through small patrols or full garrisons.  The Empire attempts to curtail the "Scum" of the galaxy like Han Solo.  The Empire establishes training and schools.  In the game TIE Fighter, the Sepan Civil War (A system of human inhabited planets) is ceased by Imperial Intervention that's fair and just for both sides.  

Anyway, we all know the "bad" stuff that comes with Imperial control as well...  The slavery, Alien prejudice & human priority, martial control of the galaxy, mass propoganda, control of personal freedoms, etc...

Now, during the Empire's time, the another civil war breaks out...  Several planets ally with each other, much like the separatists did prior to the Clone Wars onset.  They title themselves "The Alliance to Restore the Republic".  Sounds better I guess.  The Alliance seems hunky dorry by the film's view, but what are they asking for?

Well if they're truly wishing to restore the Republic, are they wishing to restore it to how it was?  It was pretty darn crappy by my estimation...  So why would you WANT to restore it?  Would crime run rampant again?  Would political backstabbing the wheeling/deeling of politicians not take over once more?

What's so great about the Alliance other than they say the Emperor's a bad guy, and point out where he is bad?  

OK, so here's my question...  Which government do you want?  I'm going to request that you THINK of this as a human...  IE: Don't think "Well man I like wookies, and so I'd hate to be one in the Empire's reign"...  Just think of it like you're a human, though  having some sympathy is fine if that's what makes you choose the choice you do.

Alright, this is a goofy topic, I'm sorry...  Maybe it's just me, and stuff like this keeps my interest.   ;D  Feel free to ignore the topic all together if you find this 100% boring.

I'm thinking that I'm actually leaning towards the Empire...  I'm disheartened with the Republic after seeing the prequals.  The Empire sort of brings a "hope" the Republic didn't.  The only thing is, the Alliance is thinking idealisticly, and maybe they'd planned government changes to curtail political wrong-doings that ran rampant in the Old Republic.  I dunno...  

I'm a bit on the fence on the issue I guess.  If you've played TIE Fighter, you'd be on the fence too.  It's quite an interesting story, and after playing it (And reading some of the "Empire's Side" in various forms) you'd question this too I believe.
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obi_robz

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Re: Regime Change...
« Reply #1 on: June 8, 2003, 06:25 AM »
I really only have the films to go on. I’ve read the 5 Zahn novels and a few of the NJO books where we hear about the Imperial Remnant (who have a fairly high opinion of their “noble” past), but none of these EU sources change my feelings that dictatorships of any kind are a VERY bad idea, regardless of whether they get the trains to run on time. Anyways, here’s the sort of thing I’d be thinking:

As a private individual, a businessman, I hate how the Empire hits me with some of those pretty heavy taxes, I mean well beyond the call of funding social services. They have their nose in all my operations, which would be “good” if I were a corrupt person, but I can tell you that I’m not. They unfairly skim the profits off the top of my barely viable company, putting the livelihood of my family and my employees at risk.

Now, I’m also the sort of person with an eye to the wider picture, and now that picture is becoming even clearer – these guys destroy planets for God's sake! The Empire has to use fear to control whole populations through the use of super-weapons. I have to wonder if my government is so great if they can’t win the hearts and minds of my fellow galactic citizens through more conventional means.

So sure, past experience has shown the Republic up to be a pretty poor show, but lets hope the Alliance wants to restore something a bit older, from a time when the Republic was in a “purer” form - something like that Old Ben is always going on about.

The bottom line is that if this “Rebel Alliance” turns out to be another Republic like last time, we’ll simply have another rebellion. Dictatorship to corrupt democracy and back again, it just seems to be the way of the world.

But that doesn’t take away from the ideal: I want a democratic system, along with all the associated personal freedoms. If you don’t have freedom, then things like open trade routes, crime control, and a 1st class education system (i.e. The Department for the Development of the Next Generation of Imperial Officers) start to lose their meaning.

To be honest, I'm surprised my local Governor is letting me type this stuff at all :(
« Last Edit: June 8, 2003, 06:38 AM by obi_robz »

Offline Darth Kenobi

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Re: Regime Change...
« Reply #2 on: June 8, 2003, 02:53 PM »

The Empire brings with it a change of rules I guess...  In some EU writing, the Empire's got some "fine points" set out that you cannot possibly get from movies that show it as 100% evil.  For instance the Empire sets up control on trade so that groups like the Trade Fed. cannot pull their blockade BS.  The Empire restricts arms trading, and expands space exploration/colonization.  The Empire takes a personal interest in every colonized world, either through small patrols or full garrisons.  The Empire attempts to curtail the "Scum" of the galaxy like Han Solo.  The Empire establishes training and schools.  In the game TIE Fighter, the Sepan Civil War (A system of human inhabited planets) is ceased by Imperial Intervention that's fair and just for both sides.  

Anyway, we all know the "bad" stuff that comes with Imperial control as well...  The slavery, Alien prejudice & human priority, martial control of the galaxy, mass propoganda, control of personal freedoms, etc...


One reason why the Empire does these is to win over the majority of the popluation.  I say this because this is what happened during the rise of Nazism and Hitler.  He started to say how he would restore the glory of Germany and ended up causing alot of its people to lose they lives.  The only reason the Emperor does any good is so that no one else overthrows him (didn't work) ;)  and the majority of people would support him and treat any rebels as criminals.  Once he started to end those "freedoms" (the Senate and using the DS) the people started to realise what was going on and that no one could be save living like that.  
So I would weather be ruled by the RA then the Empire.  Just my 2 cents. :)

Offline Vator

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Re: Regime Change...
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2003, 07:42 PM »
I would pick the RA because I belive that freedom is good.About restoring the Republic,I think they meant the glory days of the old republic,not the dying prequel republic.
- June 22, 2004 12:13 AM -

Offline Angry Ewok

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Re: Regime Change...
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2003, 02:14 AM »
I just wanna say this thread rules, really, awesome discussion.

Quote
Which government do you want?

You know... I can't really decide how I feel about the grand-scheme of things as far as the Old Republic VS the Empire.
The Old Republic obviously plays favorites, and I can't help but think of things from a Naboo citizen's point of view - at least the Empire somewhat protects its people (unless you've got a crappy Moff).

I guess I'd probably end up fighting off and on for the Alliance, but after the Alliance was to win, I'd probably just fade away and do my own thing.

I tried to answer,  :-\.

Offline Vator

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Re: Regime Change...
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2003, 04:58 AM »
During the old Republic it was touch and go,and it was the same with the Empire.Even now in the NJO the goverments have problems.
- June 22, 2004 12:13 AM -

Offline LandotheScoundrel

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Re: Regime Change...
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2003, 02:37 PM »
I think this topic really asks the question, "Is there such a thing as a perfect government?"

Lets consider the apparent Pros of the Galactic Empire...

*Order
*Military Might to defend itself and its people
*Space Exploration/Colonization (Imperialism, a Con in disguise?)
*Academy
*Better security/policing
*streamlined gov't.

These all seem like they'd be great in theory. But all it takes is corruption for these pros to become cons. The people of the Galactic Empire basically became slaves to it. Military Might was not used to defend its people, it was used to police its people. Personal liberties were tentative. As long as you didn't draw attention to yourself, you were fine. And I'm sure there are many cultures on Earth that weren't such big fans on the United States or Great Britain and their "colonization" programs.

And what if you have a legal issue? Unlawful search? Who would you go to? I doubt you'll hear Miranda rights from a stormtrooper, though you'd probably hear half a dozen blaster shots tearing your family to pieces. I bet that's what Uncle Owen heard before they tossed a thermal detonator at him.

The thing with the Galactic Empire is that there's no system of checks and balances in place. The Emperor has complete control. He can have a planet destoying weapon built if he wants, and also have it used. Would you really want the Darth Lord of the Sith in charge of your gov't? And you think Dubya is bad...

I think if we can watch these movies and practice suspension of disbelief, we need to imagine that the Alliance will form a more perfect union, with liberty and justice for all. Okay that was cheezy. But in reality, the Old Republic fell because of its corruption, and at the heart of the cancer of the Old Republic was Darth Sidious.

Great topic, by the way!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2003, 02:39 PM by LandotheScoundrel »
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Offline Vator

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Re: Regime Change...
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2003, 11:48 PM »
The Imperial Remanent isn't so bad!Ok,maybe thats a little to EU for some...
- June 22, 2004 12:13 AM -

Offline Paul

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Re: Regime Change...
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2003, 09:35 PM »
I'd say I'd be all for the Empire if I were to living in the Star Wars Universe.  I like Order, I like a Strong "State" (assuming MY particular interests are served by That State) and I like centralized Government.  I figure as an everyday citizen, I don't know the Emperor is a Sith Lord and the whole Empire is therefore Evil...