Author Topic: 2004/2005 NHL Offseason  (Read 22984 times)

Offline Mikey D

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2004, 09:37 AM »
Although I agree that the hit didn't look as bad as made out to be, it was still a cheap shot.  The worst part was probably having all the players piling up on him.  I have no problem with fighting, actually enjoy it in fact, but if you want to do it, be a man about and don't sucker punch someone.

I saw the "apology" this morning before I left for work.  The wiping of the tear seemed kind of fake to me.  Pretty hefty fine, but deserved.
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Offline DSJ™

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2004, 09:52 AM »
Pretty hefty fine indeed!  ;D  Now its up to the Vancouver police who are investigating!

Offline Paul

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2004, 10:41 AM »
I think it is also a bit telling that the league is now also fining the Team.

What irritates me about this most is that all the Non-Hockey Fans, or people who don't know any better, in the media are going crazy about how this kind of stuff happens in EVERY game and that is why Hockey is the #4 sport here in the US, blah blah blah.

I'm like most of you and believe the fighting is part of the game and a good part at that.  But it has to be done FACE TO FACE.  Not by hitting somebody in the back, hitting them with a stick or ramming their Knee into the wall (the Brian Marchment way).

I also think that having the Police get involved is also a very bad idea.  The league has rules and standards and this is something that for all intents and purposes is "part of the game".  Bertuzzi did not pull out a gun or break his stick over his knee and stab the guy (which would be considered, NOT part of the game).  Whats next, a visiting team "Enforcer" (or GOON as I've heard it called by the hockey-haters) is arrested after a game because he gets a game misconduct for instigating and fighting?  All things that would get you arrested in a bar, but are already contemplated in the rules of the game?

I was at a minor league game where the visiting captain came out of the box over the glass to get at the fans that were throwing beer and stuff at him.  NOT part of the game, both parties went to jail that night and rightfully so.

I think the other thing that gets lost in this is that Moore was a Checker/Grinder too.  I wonder what the suspension would have been if he had run Sackic or Forsberg or one of the other poster boys and ended their season/career.

Offline jokabofe

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #63 on: March 11, 2004, 11:06 AM »
I think the other thing that gets lost in this is that Moore was a Checker/Grinder too.  I wonder what the suspension would have been if he had run Sackic or Forsberg or one of the other poster boys and ended their season/career.

that was one of my biggest questions about the incident. not what bertuzzi's fine/penalty would have been, but why go after moore - a nobody on the ranks of the avs - instead of going after someone more important to the team? sakic, forsberg, kariya, selanne, hejduk, blake, foote - the avs have quite a few guys that they would miss a lot more than moore.

and i'm not quite sure i would call them "poster boys" when they can put up numbers like they do  ;D

and i just read this on one of the news sites (yahoo, i think):

Quote
It is possible other suspensions could be handed down today. Vancouver's Brad May, whose comment that Moore would face a bounty hunt by the Canucks for his original hit on Markus Naslund in a game Feb. 16, also may be suspended.

thoughts?
« Last Edit: March 11, 2004, 11:11 AM by jokabofe »

Offline Thomas Grey

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Bertuzzi
« Reply #64 on: March 11, 2004, 12:09 PM »
I live in Colorado. It's been Moore/Bertuzzi radio 24-hours-a-day since the incident. I do find it compelling, but I assume it is not as big an issue outside of Vancouver maybe.

My take:
Bartuzzi intentionally mugged Moore seeking retribution for an earlier incident. Moore had already survived a fight and the score being 8 - 2 when this all happened - damn! It was like watching a shark patrol before it goes in. Bertuzzi had ill intentions, but I do not think he meant to have it be that brutal and that damaging. The evidence that it was intentional is all over the place.

Bartuzzi is more concerned for his career and ego than Moore. Moore is doing better from what I've heard despite 2 fractured vertabrae. The fine and suspension are questionable. Hockey is violent, but there also exists a code of respect. You look a guy in the eye before you clock him... Bartuzzi broke the code and committed assault in my opinion. It's too bad the NHL can't sack up and deal with this appropriately. I think because of the looming strike, they fear a dramatic change will complicate matters more.

Ultimately, I think a lot is being made of this and the NHL is not listening. I think fighting has a place. But I think this exceeds the code and players cannot police themselves when these matters arise. If they did, Bartuzzi would never play again for fear he would be on everyone's hit list.

Another serious event and the NHL turns the other cheek. Such a great sport with such poor leadership. Some major front office shake up needs to be done. The NHL needs better pub. and the violence needs to be looked at.
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Offline Scott

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #65 on: March 11, 2004, 12:19 PM »
Good take Tom, and I'll merge this with the NHL thread where we're already talking about it

Offline Darth Paul

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2004, 12:30 PM »
I thought Todd's apology at the press conference yesterday seemed very genuine.  He looked like hell, and he spoke from the heart not from notes prepared by the team's P.R. department.
That said, I think his punishment is fair and richly deserved.  The NHL showed balls by suspending him for the playoffs, which is a much more serious consequence than regular season games.  Vancouver's Cup hopes this year are gone.
On that note, all I can say is:

GO LEAFS GO

Offline DSJ™

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #67 on: March 11, 2004, 01:11 PM »
Whats a LEAF?   :P

Offline Thomas Grey

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #68 on: March 11, 2004, 01:34 PM »
First - thanks Scott. My bad...

Second - Are you serious Darth Paul?
Yeah, it was genuine, but what is he upset for, hurting Moore severely or the consequences marring his reputation and career. The thing that really burns me is that he had the nerve to say the hit wasn't intentional. Maybe the consequence wasn't intentional, but if that's inadvertant, I'd hate to see a hit with intent. He meant to hit Moore and he meant to hurt Moore. Not as badly as he did, but he had intent. The freaking Canuck players put a bounty on his head in the press. I believe the guy Moore hit, May, said Moore would be out for a while when they did it. Moore hit him hard and he was out for 3 games. The league reviewed the hit and found that it was within the realm of a clean hit.

Bartuzzi is 250+ and hit him super hard and helped propel him, face first into the ice. If an Avalanche player hadn't gotten involved, Bartuzzi was attempting to start laying into Moore even further. So, cry for him because he screwed up his career and rep, but not because he didn't mean to do what he did and he's sorry. The dude cold cocked Moore! And hard!

Bartuzzi was nails last season. He inks a new and lucrative contract and he relaxes and hasn't put forth a very impressive effort this year. He's a thug and I don't feel for him at all. There's no sportsmanship, respect or unwritten code in what he did. It's criminal if you ask me. He may regret it, but he did it like he was out for blood. I'm getting repetitive. I just think he crossed the line and it's too bad the NHL can't define that line better. That's not hockey.

A fine on the Canucks of $250,000 may be a statement, but why not fine Bartuzzi also. I know his suspension involves not being paid, but he was the perp. I also think that it has a really big impact on the Canucks as a franchise. On Crawford, on the team... That must really burn up the Vancouver faithful. I know it's not a reflection of the team, but there are some questions now about who is promoting the character that Vancouver intends. A young, tough, scrappy team that comes out to play hard every night.

When a statement is made to the press about revenge or a bounty, the league/referees need to step in and take action. It has always been unspoken, they made it public. The league could have stepped in and told the Canucks that the consequences would be stiff if the threat is carried through. The game was 8 - 2! The refs missed their opportunity to start cracking down and let a couple majors go. Teams read this and what else does Vancouver have to do when it is hopeless. They will make the Avs pay and build some intimidation factor for the next meeting. How hard is that to see? It can be prevented, but the refs blew it.



« Last Edit: March 11, 2004, 01:50 PM by Thomas Grey »
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Offline Morgbug

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Re: Bertuzzi
« Reply #69 on: March 11, 2004, 02:26 PM »
I live in Colorado. It's been Moore/Bertuzzi radio 24-hours-a-day since the incident. I do find it compelling, but I assume it is not as big an issue outside of Vancouver maybe.


No offense, but this is pretty good evidence of the lack of understanding on the part of Americans of how big hockey is in Canada.  Not picking on you specifically Thomas, but your quote helps to illustrate a pint.  

This is a huge issue in Canada.  All of it.  I live in Winnipeg, former home of the Jets, now Coyotes (ptui).  Our AHL team is the farm team for the Canucks, but for most of us there is no love for Vancouver as we played in the same division as them.  Nonetheless, this has been a lead story on the news each day since it happened.  On TSN and Sportsnet or whatever our other channel is called, this has circumvented 80% of their other program.  Hockey is our game and this dominates coffee talk across the country.  

I suspect, and this may be my own arrogance, that most places in the US have barely batted an eye at the event, other than to write it off as typical hockey barbarism.  

That said, I completely agree with you.  Bertuzzi is a thug and the intent was clear.  The critical point that no one mentions is that when Naslund was interviewed the day after being hit by Moore, the event that precipitated this, he stated that it was a clean hit and he shouldn't have had his head down.  The first victim said that.  Sure, the Canucks may not have believed him, but the league made their ruling.  May fought Cooke earlier in the game.  Yes, a lame fight, but he stood up to it.  The mentality I cannot comprehend is that Moore was supposed to keep fighting until he was hurt?  Who the hell thinks like that?  

I have no doubt Bertuzzi did not mean to crack vertebrae and probably didn't mean to knock him out, though I doubt had a single punch merely knocked him out cold that Bertuzzi would have been anything other than gloating.  

A long time ago a Jet named Jimmy Mann hit someone like that.  He was regarded as a coward and a cheapshot artist.  Why the difference?  Not one of the games stars.  

The league is seriously messed up right now.  Bettman needs to realize that his vision may not be the ideal for the game.  The league also needs to realize that modifications are necessary.  Right now they cannot do that as the players do not share that vision.  I do believe fighting should be allowed.  But fighting involves both guys facing each other, both guys dropping their gloves, both guys or neither wearing visors.  Size matters not.  There is no honor, no courage in coldcocking a guy from behind/beside.  Had Bertuzzi not hit him, Moore would have been regarded as a chicken/turtle or otherwise.  

I think Bertuzzi is genuinely remorseful.  For what, I remain unconvinced.
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Offline Thomas Grey

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #70 on: March 11, 2004, 02:40 PM »
No offense taken. I admit that 'ockey in America is not as widely publicized, scrutinized or well-covered. Excuse my ignorance with May fighting Moore earlier in the game (and Moore holding his own) and Naslund being the guy that Moore hit to start all this. I definitely need some help and Canadian perspective with hockey. I follow it pretty well, but I am not fanatical about it or any sport right now for that matter (due to the individual being more important than the team - exceptions can be made; Marlins, Patriots and the Wild).

This has definitely put a damper on hockey. I'm more tentative to watch it and feel almost squeamish - anticipating more extemities or feeling that the skating might slow a step for cautionary reasons. It just feels wierd. Listening to the game last night, even our announcer, Mike Haynes was a little reserved. Just strange how it can envelope everyone even though it's caused by an individual...
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Offline Morgbug

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #71 on: March 11, 2004, 02:51 PM »
Well, the routine complaint in Canada is that this type of hockey and clutch-and-grab type of hockey employed by the Ducks, Wild and Devils are highly detrimental to the league.  The other complaint, though not common up here is fighting.

Fighting doesn't need to go, but goon-ism does.  The offender is irrelevant.  Whether it is a previously high-scoring player a-la-Bertuzzi or a career goon like Domi, this type of retalitory action without participation on the other players part must be ended.  Fighting with both participants agreeing can stay.  And I really don't see it as a fine line at all. It's pretty clear when both players are willing.  

The clutch and grab stuff is addressed every year by the league.  Scoring is down, hockey is boring, blah, blah, blah.  But until they address the play in the neutral zone where interference with players is currently allowed, it will stay that way.  It's a bloody efficient way to play hockey and extremely intelligent for defense.  But it's also bloody boring for fans to watch, notably in the playoffs where the game is supposed to be showcased.  The Gretzky era spawned numerous players in the 200+ point range and multitudes in the 100+ range.  Selanne scored 76 goals in his rookie season, a good proportion on break out passes from a defenseman from his own end.  He was not allowed to be interfered with in the area between both blue lines and the net result is that goal total.  Let them skate, simple as that.  If the defenseman can't keep up, too bad.  

Still, this kind of stuff hurts the league, noticeably in the US.  I just take it as a good sign that Winnipeg will get a franchise again. :P  After a new collective bargaining agreement with salary caps, profit sharing, etc. ::)  yeah, right.
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Offline Darth Paul

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #72 on: March 12, 2004, 12:42 PM »
I stand by my statement that Bertuzzi seemed genuinely remorseful.
It's certainly up for debate WHAT he was more remorseful for, Moore or himself.
Bertuzzi may be a hothead with thuggish tendencies.  He is now paying the price for his actions.
But there's no way he meant to break Moore's neck or put him in the hospital.  I'm sure he feels terrible about it, and about letting his team, fans, and league down.

On another note, if you want to understand hockey up here in Canada:  it's like Americans' fanaticism about the NFL multiplied by 10  8)

Offline Jesse James

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #73 on: March 12, 2004, 01:55 PM »
No shot to the Hockey fans in Canada, but in 13 years playing and watching the game for even longer (And in canada quite a few times), I can honestly say I've NEVER seen anything that rivals the tenacity of Football fanatics.

Football fans even love their teams when they lose.  Hockey, sadly, doesn't have that kind of support South OR North of the border.  The fact it's an expensive sport just to watch probably doesn't help either, but that's beside the point.

I'd liken hockey more to the US's national passtime of baseball...  The country loves it overall, but a lot don't avidly support it.

You really don't see that problem with the  NFL ever.  

Even when the Browns were leaving Cleveland, I remember seeing their stadiums at least near capacity, if not sold out.  Why they left, I do not know.  And the new Browns pack in the seats again.

The Steelers, even though we had a dismal year, sold out every game I am pretty sure.  

Getting tickets here is like pulling teeth unless you get season tickets.  

Crappy Hockey teams in Canada often go about as well as Crappy teams in the U.S.  They don't sell out the arenas like they need to, to compete with the rest of the league.  Baseball is the same way here.

Pirates have a brand new and GORGEOUS stadium.  I mean, it's amazing if you see it.  And it rarely gets over half full I think.  Pirates suck...  And it shows with empty seats.

NFL though, that is more cmparable with the world's love of soccer...  The way European stadiums are crammed with people.  THat is what I'd cmpare US Football to instead.  It's mind boggling.

I almost expect them to change the US pass-time at some point to football.  It'd make sense, as Baseball slowly fades away.
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Offline Mikey D

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Re: NHL '03-'04
« Reply #74 on: March 12, 2004, 02:06 PM »
Agreed Jesse.  I like hockey, but football fandom is where its at.  Even with pathetic teams like the Raiders and Rams, the place is packed.  I haven't seen any other sport where fans show up in minus degree weather with a 30 mph wind or two feet of snow (excluding that one outdoor hockey game).  Christ, baseball teams barely play in a drizzle.

I like baseball too, but football is the American past time to me.
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