Author Topic: Clone Commanders  (Read 2456 times)

Offline Carjup Bejewel

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Clone Commanders
« on: December 12, 2005, 09:21 PM »
Is this all of the Clone Commanders?

-Commander Bacara (Snow trooper with Ki-Adi-Mundi)
-Clone Commander Cody (Urban trooper with Obi-Wan)
-Commander Bly (Fungi trooper :P with Aayla Secera)
-Commander Gree (Scout troopers with Yoda)
-Commander Thire (red-emblazoned shock trooper with Emporer Palpatine)
-Commander Neyo (Speeder bike trooper with Stass Allie)
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 09:38 PM by Carjup Bejewel »

Offline Gatillo

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2005, 10:58 PM »
Do you not mean "Are these all the clone commanders?"

You are never alone when there's a clone.

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Offline Clone Commander

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2005, 12:29 AM »
Commander Appo with Anakin Skywalker(501st)
-also Sergeant fox was second in command.

Commander Faie...(unknown)

Commander Oddball(Anakin and Obi-wan -battle of coruscant)

Commander Deviss, (Adi Gallia in Dark Illusions photo novel-GREAT READ!- ;D)
Clone Commander Appo.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2005, 01:23 AM »
Well, if the question is whether that's all the Commanders in the film or not, that remains to be seen.  I don't think Thire stood out from any of the others, did he?  But anyway, if the question is whether or not there are more Commanders in the Republic military I think it's pretty well inevitable there would be.

Every group of Clones is going to have a field Commander I'm guessing...  That's also my only logical conclusion on what the actual title "Commander" means.  It's a rank unique to Star Wars as Commanders aren't usually marching in with the men in Earth combat terms, not like Cody did anyway, so I've been grappling with the title "Commander" being used in the Clone military for a long time now (Since AOTC). 

But underneath every Commander I figure there has to be Captain's, Lieutenant's, and then the groupings of Non-Coms and Troopers.  I figure there's not much structure for troopers other than they have a Sergeant of perhaps varying degrees, but the build up to the rank of Sergeant (IMO) is non-existant and till you gain that higher level below officers you are just a "Trooper".  It simplifies things at least.

Beyond that you have sergeants...  Do they look different?  Perhaps in some units, but not in others.  With the color coding done away with between the early war and the late war, I figure some means of identification of rank was conceived otherwise.  So Sergeants of all levels (I figure the "dots" on the chest of the early War Clones represented varying levels of rank for that rank level.  It's the only thing I can think of anyway) would, in my mind, look like other Clone Troopers...  Maybe they are the troop designated to carry the support weapon (Blaster Carbine) or whatnot?

From there the Clones have Lieutenants of varying degrees, Captains...  Then that odd rank of "Commander".  Somehow above a Captain, though the actual rank of "Commander" in Naval terms is underneath a Captain so that's confusing, and I don't believe there is a rank of Commander within the Army or Marines...  Only Navy, however there is no Sergeant within the Navy if I'm thinking right (actually a whole other ranking structure really) so again there's a confusing notion.

The rank of Colonel and the rank of Major appear to be completely glossed over in at least the Clone military structure.

Like Sergeants though I figure the dots of the early war Clones represented various levels of rank within the Lieutenants, then the Captains (which in military terms is goofy because there is only one rank of Captain for the Army, Navy, etc., but whatever), etc.

Commander then still remains an enigma.  It's below the rank of Captain within the Navy but in the Clone world a "Commander" outranks a Captain.  This again leads me to believe the full title is "Field Commander", and this ranking trooper on the field is a liason between the Jedi General (or potential sentient officers commanding a battle situation?  I do believe that the Republic HAD a standing military and Officers who would comprise a military body outside the Clones.  In the CW cartoon we see a ground crewman for instance around the Clone fighters, and also I've read that people like Jan Dodonna were up and coming officers in the war...  Also cut lines from ANH had Red Leader saying he fought with Luke's father, etc., so I'm sure there were more than Clones running the show and don't believe them to be the guys running Destroyers and things).  The Field Commander or "Commander" is the most adept, respected, and dangerous soldier on the field short of possibly special ops troopers such as Commandoes and ARCs, and he's there for leadership and coordination where the Jedi cannot always be there to be the leaders on the field.

Some lower ranks within a Clone Legion (I'm guessing Legions are the largest single military grouping in the Star Wars Galaxy) maybe are allowed to adjust their armor by the whims of their COmmander or Jedi General?  Perhaps all Clones are allowed to modify their gear even, further setting them apart from others?  Lots of room for debate and thought there.

Also, a point of note about Appo (always wanna call him Alpo) and Fox...  Fox cannot possibly be second in command in my mind.  Sergeants don't run the show unless everyone's dead, so if Appo is a legion Commander ("Field Commander", whatever), I believe Fox must be at the least a Captain (by the generally accepted EU guide to Clone ranks).  Sergeants just don't lead large groups like that unless they work their way to a higher rank due to casualties within the ranks, field promotion for exemplary work, etc... 

I could see Fox as an aide, or liason that Appo uses to communicate with his various other lower ranking officers.  It's likely any Commander in the field would have men of some substance grouped around him to send personal messages, to defend him if need be, etc...

These are just some thoughts on Clones and "Commanders"/Officers throughout the Prequals.  They really did a piss poor job in covering this stuff in EU materials and the films.  The films never really get into the lower ranks though so all these names/ranks are basically EU aside from Cody who Kenobi talks to directly by his name and using the "Commander" term with him.  Again one could argue though that "Commander" is a generic title for any ranking Officer and that it's not a literal term.

The term "Commander" is used liberally throughout the classic trilogy like that.  Jerjerrod is listed as Moff Jerjerrod in the credits I believe but called Commander by Palpatine because he's the Death Star's ranking officer.  I personally view his title of Moff as his rank though as EU says, but he's still a "Commander" of men.  That's all just food for thought.

A lot to be said about Clone ranks.  I've never much liked its layout in EU though.  The people who created the ranking structure never accounted for the dot patterns on the left chest and stuff, they just slapped "Sergeant = Green, Lieutenant = Blue, Captain = Red, and Commander = Yellow" to them, which is just lazy on someone's part. :)

Same happened with the Pauldrons for the (I believe to be mythical) "Sand"Trooper.  For my money, the pauldrons and modular packs are standard gear for Imperial Stormtroopers in ANY field condition aside from extreme cold/'mountainous.  To me the cold/mountain gear is the "Snow"Trooper gear and I don't buy there actually being "Snow"Troopers that are ready at a moment's notice to drop onto icy planets...  just in case. :)  It's easier in my mind to assume that Stormtroopers have clothes for cold weather assaults, and that the Standard Trooper armor is used for other climates and the pack is modular to be adapted with the appropriate gear for the appropriate world.  THe Pauldron then is a FAST means of identifying ranking individuals on the field.  The Orange Pauldron isn't indicative of any specific rank, and could indicate anything from a Lieutenant up to a General in armor even.  The other colors are a little more believable though for what they were listed, and there's lotsa EU designs I dig too.

Anyway this is rambling a bit about how ****** military organization has gotten since the classic trilogy was made.  EU has taken some great steps to coordinate it, but with the prequals they've made a ****** effort at best.  It doesn't help when Lucas makes umpteen unique Clone designs for his final prequal film as a marketing technique...  As cool as they are and all. ;)

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Offline Angry Ewok

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2005, 03:20 PM »
I can't tell what Carjup is asking, but then again, I never can. What a waste.

I'm thinking he's asking if those are all of the Commanders in the film...

As CCG pointed out, Commander Appo and Commander Oddball are both in the film. Chances are, too, there are even more Commanders in the film. I've yet to see any name attached to the pilot who shot down Plo Koon, for example.

Now as to what exactly a Commander is, in terms of rank...

Quote
Every group of Clones is going to have a field Commander I'm guessing...  That's also my only logical conclusion on what the actual title "Commander" means.  It's a rank unique to Star Wars as Commanders aren't usually marching in with the men in Earth combat terms, not like Cody did anyway, so I've been grappling with the title "Commander" being used in the Clone military for a long time now (Since AOTC).


You're right, in Earth terms, usually Field Commanders and Generals don't get caught marching alongside grunts in the thick of battle - but, at least what we can see in Revenge of the Sith, neither do many of the confirmed Clone Commanders.

Follow me :

We can't really tell when Commander Cody landed at Utapah, if his Gunship landed with the first wave, or a second or third - but during the length of the battle, we see him in what appears to be a secured Landing Zone. Since he never moves from this location, I think it's safe to assume this is his base of operations. Despite being under fire, it's definately not the Front.

During the entire Battle of Kashyyyk, Jedi General Yoda, Wookiee General Tarful, and Commander Gree and his staff are located on an observation deck. The deck becomes quite close to the front, as the beachfront appears to have been pushed back, but none of the Commanders seem concerned for their safety - they stay put...

Comander Bly and his staff join Jedi General Aayla at the head of an advance...

Commander Bacara follow behind Jedi General Ki Adi in the thick of it...

Do you see what I'm going at, here?

In the case of the Battle of Utapah, where the Jedi General is an acting Commando at-large (having landed before the invasion), the attacking force's Clone Commander stays at his base of operations and operates accordingly on his own. In the case of the Battle of Kashyyyk, where the commanding Jedi General stays at the base of operations, so too does the Clone Commander. In the cases of the battles of Felucia and Mygeeto, where the commanding Jedi Generals are at the front lines, so too are the Clone Commanders...

I know its a long way just to make a little point, but it seems to me that when the Clone Commanders are accompanied by Jedi Generals - they act as the Commander of the Jedi General's Operations Staff. Wherever the Jedi General goes, the Clone Commander goes... even if that means they fight on the front lines.

And with the Clone's mentality, is that really any surprise?


Here's how I see the Military structure of the Republic:

The Jedi Council answers to the Senate. The Jedi, as an organization, were chosen by the Senate to lead the Republic, but the Council selects the Jedi Generals on their own. Naturally, the Jedi Generals answer to the Jedi Council (which consists of Jedi Masters, and in Anakin's case, a Jedi Knight), while all rank of Jedi in the military, from Apprentices to Knights, answer to their Jedi Generals...

The Clones are loyal to the Chancellor, who is (supposed to be) under the order of the Senate, too. Thus, the Clones, under the Senate's orders, answer to the Jedi... even the Apprentices class. The fact that a Jedi Apprentice can take charge of a Clone Commander's force really bothers me, but obviously the Senate had blind faith in the Superhuman Jedi to be natural military leaders.

Quote
Fox cannot possibly be second in command in my mind.  Sergeants don't run the show unless everyone's dead, so if Appo is a legion Commander ("Field Commander", whatever), I believe Fox must be at the least a Captain (by the generally accepted EU guide to Clone ranks).  Sergeants just don't lead large groups like that unless they work their way to a higher rank due to casualties within the ranks, field promotion for exemplary work, etc... 

I think Clone Commanders are the equivalent of our world's 3 and 4 star Generals, meaning they have a staff of aides consisting of higher and lower placed officers at their side, which could explain why Commander Appo may have a Lieutenant give one of his (Division) Generals an order.

I think the Generals, too, have a staff - and the same all the way down to probably Battalion strength, with Majors and their staff (Quartermasters, Platoon Sergeants).

Ever since hearing Luke Skywalker reffered to as a Commander during Empire Strikes Back, I've thought of the rank of Commander as an often honorary title attached to an existing rank - but I don't think this is the case with the Clone Army.

Quote
I figure there's not much structure for troopers other than they have a Sergeant of perhaps varying degrees, but the build up to the rank of Sergeant (IMO) is non-existant and till you gain that higher level below officers you are just a "Trooper".  It simplifies things at least.

I disagree, I think the structure is intact from Private to General - and - I think the term "Trooper" is just a both formal, respectful, and brotherly term, used like "Comrade"...

Quote
With the color coding done away with between the early war and the late war, I figure some means of identification of rank was conceived otherwise.

It's likely that the color coding was done away with because it was so easy to identify rank - during the early stages of the war, officer casulties were probably twice that of the later stages of the war, once officers became harder to distinguish from their troops.

With the advancement in the Clone helmet's HUD (Heads-Up Display), from the added night-vision to private com-link, it's highly probable that rank recognition was implemented, as well. I look at it much like the player recognition in most online games - your allies have ID markers.


Quote
Some lower ranks within a Clone Legion (I'm guessing Legions are the largest single military grouping in the Star Wars Galaxy) maybe are allowed to adjust their armor by the whims of their CO or Jedi General?  Perhaps all Clones are allowed to modify their gear even, further setting them apart from others?  Lots of room for debate and thought there.

I believe one source said that the Jedi encouraged Clones to individualize themselves by taking names... I think the Jedi influence during the war, what with the close relationships between Jedi General and Clone Commander, lead to alot of trickle-down effect through the ranks... Perhaps when Cody, for example, was encouraged by the Jedi to take his name, his staff did the same, and on down...

I think Clone Commander's also allowed their Division Generals to personalize their units' armor, first for the sake of camoflauge, then eventually for the sake of pride... I'm sure the paint schemes depended on the individual Commander, which is why you see some units within a Legion wearing the completely different color schemes, and another Legion where all units are the painted the same.

It's all thanks to the Jedi, I think. This is why, I believe, Stormtroopers in the OT have reverted back to the plain white - after destroying the Jedi's presence, Palpatine also wanted to erase, as much as possible, anything the Jedi were responsible for doing.

Why didn't the Biker Scouts on Endor camoflauge their armor? They weren't allowed to.

In terms of the Clone troops customizing their gear - that's an entirely different beast altogether. Playing ROTS in slow-mo, you see dozens of troopers carrying different combinations of rifles, helmets, antenna, pauldrons, and straps and packs. It's insane.

Quote
To me the cold/mountain gear is the "Snow"Trooper gear and I don't buy there actually being "Snow"Troopers that are ready at a moment's notice to drop onto icy planets...  just in case.   It's easier in my mind to assume that Stormtroopers have clothes for cold weather assaults, and that the Standard Trooper armor is used for other climates and the pack is modular to be adapted with the appropriate gear for the appropriate world. 

I agree completely. I, too, find it a bit silly to think the Empire would afford to keep a 'Cold Weather Garrison' and 'Sandy-terrain Garrison' on board capitol ships - along with their regular troopers - just in case they happen to need them. It just isn't effecient.

I think the same can be said for the Republic's Galactic Marines.

Quote
The Pauldron then is a FAST means of identifying ranking individuals on the field.  The Orange Pauldron isn't indicative of any specific rank, and could indicate anything from a Lieutenant up to a General in armor even.  The other colors are a little more believable though for what they were listed, and there's lotsa EU designs I dig too.

I'm not sure what to think about the Pauldrons... while they could indicate rank, I think it's much more likely that they serve a more civilian-oriented purpose. Perhaps the orange pauldron indicates 'the guy in charge', while the gray pauldron indicates this trooper is a translator, and white as a medic, or something of that effect. I'm stuck on the idea that by the Mid-year of the Clone Wars, troopers had a sophisticated HUD.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2005, 03:28 PM by Angry Ewok »

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2005, 11:05 PM »
A couple points I don't know I agree with...

-Trooper Designation...  I see your point Brad, but while I think it's applicable and "generic", I still think that a Clone Army would have a substantially less diverse ranking for "troopers".  I think Sergeant is a leaping point for rising through the ranks, but that anything below Sergeant is "Trooper".  I could see at the same time "Trooper 1st Class" or some such, but I think Corporals and Privates are non-existant ranks within the Clone military...  To me, the Clones come out as skilled soldiers.  More skilled perhaps than even recruits would come out of training as, and thus they're treated differently...  How that plays out with the Imperial military (which I view as recruits), I don't know.  I could see Corporals and Privates and PFC's and such.  I don't know.  Just how I view it though.  I see a simplification as being something the Clone military would have adopted at least.

-On the Pauldron Issue...  To me, the pauldron works a dual role.  First it serves as a means for civilian interaction on some level...  Who they can talk to, who they can't talk to, etc...  I think that makes some sense if Stormies are doing a policing role at all.  But also I think that a HUD system is something prone to failure, or something that isn't reliable in combat situations.  The Pauldrons don't indicate specific ranks but rather a generalization...  Orange being the "highest" color indicating an officer on the field but it could be anything from a lowly Lieutenant to whatever the highest rank is that dons the armor (not sure on Generals from my own POV but I could see Captains at least being the highest ranking Stormtrooper Officers).  The colors make the fog of war clear up a little bit, and you can see where your sergeant is, or your specialists...  The Pauldrons aren't always used, and often it's more the environment that dictates their use rather than anything.  Tatooine's sandstorms and such give good reason to use them there, and a planet prone to fog for instance, or rain/snow (though not a frigid world like Hoth, just a battlezone seeing snow flurries or whatnot) would make sense to have the easily identifiable Pauldron.  I figure Corpsmen, if they exist, use them too...  I have this concept of them having their own pauldron with a striped design.  I even actually thought of doing a custom Stormie Corpsman with a red/white stripped AT-TE Gunner's Pauldron.  Just a weird idea I had that I thought would look cool (I figured you'd appreciate that Brad). :)

-The Issue of "Field Commanders"...  I don't look at them as being as high ranking as a general in Earth Military terms...  To me, I'd liken them more to an "active" Colonel perhaps.  I view the Jedi as clearly above the Clone in rank, and as the true General on the field...  The strategist.  It's the Clone's responsibility to coordinate that strategy on the field then, so I view them as a bit lower rank than General but not terribly lower.

I do see them as being active soldiers on the field too, more than others, but even the Jedi are generally active in battle...  Which is odd and unique to Star Wars but it's how I just view Cody and others.  Bacara was at the front, Cody was at a place where blasts were zinging past so I viewed his position as more of a frontline Commander because of that...  Gree I could see being similar but standing with Yoda because maybe that's what Yoda wanted him to do?  Otherwise though, my view of CLone Commanders is that they're active fighters too...  Probably better protected and surrounded by "better" soldiers than just "Troopers" (Lieutenants, Captains, Sergeants, etc.), and not AS active in the fighting as any random grunt, but I view them as definitely active fighters...

I then view military structure of the Republic as having a SUBSTANTIAL Sentient grouping.  Strategists like a young Jan Dodonna for instance, a young Wilhuff Tarkin, etc., etc...  And sentient soldiers.  Maybe doing mop-up work, acting as support and such for fighter crews, crewman for destroyers and such...  I think the republic military was "small" (for a galactic military anyway) prior to AOTC, but it would swell during the Clone Wars and while Clones would make up the main fighting bodies that there would be substantial sentient support military personnel and some fighting bodies too. 

Just some more random thoughts...  Fun turning a rather pointless topic into something tollerable.
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Offline Clone Commander

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2005, 06:02 PM »
obviously the Senate had blind faith in the Superhuman Jedi to be natural military leaders.

I agree.
I dont think that the senate got the idea that they are still living sentient beings that have a life that can expire.
I mean come on, they die too!  :D
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Offline Carjup Bejewel

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2005, 09:06 PM »
Commander Appo with Anakin Skywalker(501st)
-also Sergeant fox was second in command.

Commander Faie...(unknown)

Commander Oddball(Anakin and Obi-wan -battle of coruscant)

Commander Deviss, (Adi Gallia in Dark Illusions photo novel-GREAT READ!- ;D)
I knew that there had to be more Clone Commanders.
Do you not mean "Are these all the clone commanders?"

I don't care :P 8)

Offline Clone Commander

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2006, 06:56 PM »
Quote
I've yet to see any name attached to the pilot who shot down Plo Koon, for example.

That guy was captain Jag.
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Offline Artoo

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2006, 05:57 PM »
Commander Appo with Anakin Skywalker(501st)
-also Sergeant fox was second in command.

Commander Faie...(unknown)

Commander Oddball(Anakin and Obi-wan -battle of coruscant)

Commander Deviss, (Adi Gallia in Dark Illusions photo novel-GREAT READ!- ;D)
I knew that there had to be more Clone Commanders.
Do you not mean "Are these all the clone commanders?"

I don't care :P 8)
That's funny becuase Deviss is in your icon. :P
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Offline Reid

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2006, 07:10 PM »
(or potential sentient officers commanding a battle situation?  I do believe that the Republic HAD a standing military and Officers who would comprise a military body outside the Clones.  In the CW cartoon we see a ground crewman for instance around the Clone fighters, and also I've read that people like Jan Dodonna were up and coming officers in the war...  Also cut lines from ANH had Red Leader saying he fought with Luke's father, etc., so I'm sure there were more than Clones running the show and don't believe them to be the guys running Destroyers and things.

Don't forget the Firespeeder Pilots servicing Jedi Interceptors in the Star Destroyer Hangar Bay.




 :P
« Last Edit: March 18, 2006, 07:49 PM by HunterofThePegs »

Offline Clone Commander

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2006, 01:40 AM »
Yup, they were always on board as engineers and rescue personel incase anything were to happen like a space slug were to take a bite out of the venator!  :P
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Offline 212th Battalion

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #12 on: July 3, 2006, 12:44 AM »
yeah lol
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Offline Clones

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #13 on: November 4, 2006, 07:24 PM »
As far as non-clone troops, does anyone remember the cameo appearence of Lorth Needa (Captain Needa in ESB) in the ROTS adult novel?

I'm guessing that Republic Navy must have been made  up of non-clones and the senior generation of Imperial Officers (Ozzel, Piett, Veers...).

That would have made a great scene in ROTS, OT officers in their 30s and 20s on the bridge of a Venator.

And there is one more Commander. Jag. He was the pilot who shot Plo Koon out of the sky.
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Offline commander apoc

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Re: Clone Commanders
« Reply #14 on: November 5, 2006, 05:10 PM »
wasn't Jag a Captain....?

Just like Captain Fordo, taskforce leader for the hunt for Grievous at the planet Hypori, but not a commander
There can never be enough clones.....