Author Topic: The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking  (Read 1118 times)

Offline Jesse James

  • Staff Member
  • Grand Master
  • *
  • Posts: 31252
  • Slippery When Poopy
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender.com
The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking
« on: January 6, 2007, 05:32 AM »
This is a thing that always...  bugs me.

The context of Star Wars always has put the Alliance as being a "ragtag" group...  Patchwork of multiple fighting forces, no real cohesion really, guerilla warfare only, running and hiding from the Empire all the time because they're just so big you can't compete with them...  Now, that said, at the same time the EU gives a duel impression of the Alliance where in one vein you see them as ragtag with confiscated weapons, ****** vehicles gear, and no real  structured military look to them, yet other EU gives the opposite impression completely...

Now, personally I view the Alliance in a way where they are only small and ragtag by comparison...  By the only comparison one has to make, and that is against the Empire itself.  Of course they're "small" and they're "ragtag".  Plus, ragtag can mean a lot of things...  The continental army was part of the U.S. forces and a key for keeping the fight goign against the British in the American Revolution, yet the Continental Army was the "core" while around it were militia units from all colonies and various communities, independant groups like the Green Mountain Boys, Guerilla Militia groups such as down South in the Carolinas, etc., etc...  One army, many looks to it, one core look to identify it though, and that gave it a structured, uniformed, legitimate military...

For me, that's more the way the Alliance looks though.  They've got militia units involved, perhaps unwilling to throw themselves 100% into the cause (and under the umbrella of leadership) the Alliance "core" represents.  The Dresellian's perhaps represent a good example of this, or the Tibrian Militia, or even Wookiee resistance on Kashyyyk where the planet's under martial law by the Empire, etc...  All parts of the Alliance, all maybe have members of their species as enlisted beings in the CORE of the Alliance (wearing the uniform of the core, which to me is the Fleet Trooper gear).  But the Alliance still has these militias and support maybe from groups on planets they don't have open warfare with the Empire... 

Another earthy analogy would be what the VC were to the NVA in Vietnam.

What I guess I'm getting at is I'm the kind of guy that looks at Yavin IV and the battle of Yavin as not a blip on the radar, a definite big battle, but one where the base isn't THE only Rebel Base...  It's maybe the forward most rebel base.  It's maybe a rebel base the Alliance set up that does substantial damage to the Empire and all, but it's not "The Rebel Base" but instead one of many...  one the Empire's interested in destroying asap.  Perhaps Yavin IV was the first base that was that far "inside" the Empire that was doing outward strikes against the Empire?

The Alliance at the same time is operating large fleets...  Small compared to the Empire, but fleets with sizeable numbers of personnel and armament...  Multiple of these fleets as well.  And these fleets can, but try to not, engage the Empire...  They only do so when they are sure of victory and not being tracked afterwards.

To take it further though, I envision the Alliance as EU implies that they have entire planets, some within the known galaxy, some outside it, to supplement the Alliance efforts...  Producing food, armor, weapons/munitions, clothes, POW colonies, etc., etc., etc...  Some of these are well outside the known galaxy perhaps, maybe taking advantage of the lack of expansion even...  For instance in E1 Tatooine is NOT a Republic system but is under Hut control...  By the time of ANH Tatooine is getting enveloped, but that shows a lack of galactic exploration and expansion that maybe the Alliance was able to jump on and set up a "front line" that they were safe from the Empire with these "safe worlds".

At the same time the Alliance may have bases on many imperial held worlds as well, or explored worlds may be fortified against even the grand Empire...  I've always pondered how Mon Calamari "held up" for instance, as it's a known planet/system that supposedly supplies lots of people and ships, and has ship yards building more...  The idea of sieges coming up in Clone Wars makes me think the Empire can't just waltz in and squash ANY world they want.  EU really helps flesh that notion out too a bit.

Anyway, the concept of the Alliance is one that intrigues me...  I know movie purists view it as a very small group, a fly on a horse's back, while EU gives a different look to it completely...  I guess I lean more towards the EU views, with my own ideas/theories mixed in there of course.
2011 Rebel Fleet Trooper Gets My Seal Of Approval!  But Where's The Friggin' Holster On Him!?
Jedi Defender.com Contributing Editor, Twitter @JediDefender & @Jesse_James77

Offline Greg

  • Jedi Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 1850
    • View Profile
Re: The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking
« Reply #1 on: January 7, 2007, 02:48 PM »
The idea of sieges coming up in Clone Wars makes me think the Empire can't just waltz in and squash ANY world they want.  EU really helps flesh that notion out too a bit.

   Well, in the Clone Wars you had two armies that were around the same size, strength, and technology level facing off against each other.(I think that it's due to Sidious wanting to keep the war going and the factions strength close to equal) The Separatists, especially during the Outer Rim Sieges, were digging in and fortifying their planets with the intent of withstanding Republic attacks. Therefore, Republic strikes turned into sieges spanning several months, like the battle of Saleucami.

   When the Empire was in control and fighting the Rebels, they had superior technology and armed forces. To capture most planets, all they really needed to do was march a few AT-ATs in to destroy ground defenses, and send in Storm Troopers and other units to capture the major cities/towns. Even though the Empire may have had a hard time taking Kashyyk and Mon Calamari, they decimated Rebel bases on Yavin 4 (after the Death Star blew up) and Hoth (Okay, so the Rebels weren't really ready for that one.) If the Empire tried, I believe that they could take over any planet they wanted, either with fear, superior numbers, firepower, and/or technology on their side. Holding a planet, like Kashyyk, is a different story.     

Offline Angry Ewok

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Master
  • *
  • Posts: 5506
  • The Ewok Village Idiot
    • View Profile
    • www.TowheeStudio.com
Re: The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking
« Reply #2 on: January 7, 2007, 07:15 PM »
When the Empire was in control and fighting the Rebels, they had superior technology and armed forces.

No way. How was the Empire's technology superior to the Alliance's? The Alliance had standard issue weaponry, splicers with equipment just as good as the Empire, Alliance pilots had fighters with shields and ejection seats long before the Empire's fleets, the Mon Cal ships were beautiful and totally outclassed Star Destroyers, blockade runners efficient enough to enable a rebellion that is uniformally clothed and equipped with standard issue, and the Alliance homebases apparently had good enough detection devices to spot probes upon their impact, etc.

The Empire's armed forces weren't superior to the Alliance, either. That was pretty much Jesse's entire point in making this thread, I thought. The Alliance couldn't match the Empire in terms of volume, but volume isn't the same as superiority. Stormtroopers may go through training camps and the like, and have a nice assortment of accessories, but history often shows the outnumbered soldier is typically the superior (Continental Militia, Confederate Calvarymen, dare I say French Foreign Legion (?), the Fallshirmjagers and US Airborne of WW2, etc)...

Comparing the Rebel Alliance to the Continental Army is one of the better comparisons.


...they decimated Rebel bases on Yavin 4 (after the Death Star blew up)...

The Rebels evacuated Yavin before the Empire regrouped... there was nothing there to decimate. Yavin was just another Dantooine.

« Last Edit: January 7, 2007, 07:17 PM by Angry Ewok »

Offline Jesse James

  • Staff Member
  • Grand Master
  • *
  • Posts: 31252
  • Slippery When Poopy
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender.com
Re: The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking
« Reply #3 on: January 8, 2007, 12:21 AM »
I'll give a more in-depth reply in a bit but on the Yavin IV thing, I thought the only EU that really fleshed that out was the Rogue Squad games and Force Commander PC RTS game.  FC shows the only defense the planet put up physically on the ground while the RS game hashed out how the planet's last ships were evacuated in space...  I THINK X-Wing might've covered some of the evacuation too, I can't recall though and it's been ages since I played but I'll check out the guide to see what it says...

Anyway, that said, the Alliance left a base pretty entrenched that takes quite a few IMperials with it to destroy it in Force Commander...  It utilized terrain perfectly as I recall...  till the Empire can get air units into play (in the game that is). 

Games have certain leeway of course in terms of story, but EU is EU and the Alliance are hardly toothless at Yavin even after they evacuated...  They left a holding force to fight back and it does a decent job.

In Rogue Squad the Massassi Temple raid is shown rather nicely...  Not much to it other than the last of the last getting out of Dodge while the Empire takes control of the Temples and that location of the planet.
2011 Rebel Fleet Trooper Gets My Seal Of Approval!  But Where's The Friggin' Holster On Him!?
Jedi Defender.com Contributing Editor, Twitter @JediDefender & @Jesse_James77

Offline Greg

  • Jedi Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 1850
    • View Profile
Re: The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking
« Reply #4 on: January 8, 2007, 08:19 PM »
Angry Ewok- Regarding the technology issue, if the Empire's technology wasn't superior, would they be building things like Super Star Destroyers, gigantic, Super Lasers capable of destroying large starships and even planets , and Interdictor Cruisers equipped with gravity well generators?
   I could say that Mon Calamari Starships were not ideas of Rebel Scientists (as they were built by the Mon Cal, even some Mon Cal ships were being used in the Clone Wars), but not all Imperial ideas were those of the Empire. (Some scientists were forced against their will to design and build things for the Empire)
   Now, on the topic of shields and hyperdrives in ships, the Empire used them in some small ships, but like you said, not in fighters. The Empire deployed their TIEs in swarms to overwhelm enemies and use speed and pilot training to defeat enemies. Since no shields were on Imperial fighters, this was most likely due to the cost of added shield generators versus the cost of new pilots and fighters. The shields were probably more expensive. Different strategy and budget issues on the Empire's part, most likely.
   Now, if you are referring to just the movies in your argument, then you win hands down. EU opens up a whole new ball game, especially if you incorporate video games.

Jesse James- Yavin is used in Battle Front 1 and 2 in the form of stopping escaping Rebel ships and an infantry attack on the ground. It also appears in Galactic Battlegrounds, where you must fight your way to General Jan Dodonna on the ground after the destruction of the Death Star. 

Offline Jesse James

  • Staff Member
  • Grand Master
  • *
  • Posts: 31252
  • Slippery When Poopy
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender.com
Re: The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking
« Reply #5 on: January 8, 2007, 09:59 PM »
OK, I said I'd get back to this and I promise I'm trying, haha...  I'm just dead tired lately.  It was probably a bad idea to even bring up conversations I knew I'd have a hard time participating in like this.  I'm trying though...

Quote
Well, in the Clone Wars you had two armies that were around the same size, strength, and technology level facing off against each other.

Everything I've read on the Clone Wars indicated to me the Republic's outmanned and outgunned in most cases, but the Clones are developed to be equalizers.  For instance, and this is just off the top of my head because i read it just over the weekend when I picked this up, the back of the Clone Commandoes 7-pack from Hasbro indicates that Clones are expected to be the equal of 10 of their enemy...  The Republic is also listed at the start of E3 as losing the war somehow too...  Not a good sign, but they seem to me to be the true underdog. 

I agree though that their gear is comparable...  Star Wars sort of establishes a static universe in terms of technology...  IE: there are attempts at advancement, but advancement is slow.  This isn't like World War 2 for instance where a technology race was on by both sides, and huge advancements are made from war's start to war's end...

Quote
The Separatists, especially during the Outer Rim Sieges, were digging in and fortifying their planets with the intent of withstanding Republic attacks. Therefore, Republic strikes turned into sieges spanning several months, like the battle of Saleucami.

The concept of sieges is intriguing...  But siege is a tactictal decision, not one of necessity generally.  I think for every planet the CIS was dug into, there were perhaps planets the Republic was holding in a similar fashion.  It just seems to me that the "front line" was fairly defined as the Outer Rim, sot he struggles were in worlds out there...  The CIS changes its tactics much like in WW1 to punch into areas they feel are left vulnerable then, to put pressure on the Republic to pull from front A and move to front B...  Siege though wouldn't necessarilly be a limited means of tactical advantage for any group...  Thus I feel the Alliance could, and would use siege where necessary.  Their issue would be facing overwhelming force, especially the further they push their base(s) into Imperial space.  The closer the EMpire would have to support their siege(s)...  The further out, the better off the Alliance would be, stretching IMperial supply lines...  This would also work to the Alliance's efforts to attack Imperial supply fleets, the further stretched the Navy is.

What I think is happening is that the Alliance is setting up much like the CIS did, along the outer rim, trying to hold that as a "front"...  At the same time, they're trying to make incursions toward the core, as deep as they can while maintaining "secrecy", thus bases like Yavin and Hoth come up that serve a purpose for attack more than defense possibly...

Quote
When the Empire was in control and fighting the Rebels, they had superior technology and armed forces. To capture most planets, all they really needed to do was march a few AT-ATs in to destroy ground defenses, and send in Storm Troopers and other units to capture the major cities/towns.

My problem with this is that there's nothing that establishes the rebels as having inferior technology or armed forces...  Just less of them.  Less means the tactics change but victory is acheivable.  That's where my idea for the conversation here started really...  "Are they 'ragtag' or are they only 'ragtag' by comparison to the Empire?"

So I see it very differently...  The Empire only had to march a few AT-AT's into a planet that was lightly held...  They'd still take heavy losses if the planet had the right defenses, and if they tried taking a fully fortified system the Empire would have to go to a siege format...  If the Empire's forced to siege a planet like MOn Calamari, which let's say for argument is a large, and heavily fortified planet with limited access, the Alliance would be able to hold out...  But like I said they're not facing the Empire on terms where they have rocks compared tot he Empire having machine guns...  The Empire is facing a formidable, structured, and large army.  They just outnumber them tremendously, but they've also got an Empire to maintain so they can't just abandon everywhere to fight anywhere.

Thus weapons like the Death Star are made...  Why siege a planet you can simply destroy, or threaten even, to break the siege?  If anything, the concept of the Alliance I'm going for/explaining reinforces WHY the Death Star was made.  It's the weapon you supposedly can't fight regardless of tactics.

Siege works tot he advantage of the numerically weak...  The Death Star would negate that advantage.  That doesn't mean the Alliance have ****** weapons to work with, or that they couldn't have held out in a siege otherwise due to a weak military in general.  Their strength is a reason to want/have a Death Star really.

Quote
Even though the Empire may have had a hard time taking Kashyyk and Mon Calamari, they decimated Rebel bases on Yavin 4 (after the Death Star blew up) and Hoth (Okay, so the Rebels weren't really ready for that one.) If the Empire tried, I believe that they could take over any planet they wanted, either with fear, superior numbers, firepower, and/or technology on their side. Holding a planet, like Kashyyk, is a different story.

Kashyyyk was maybe under martial law since E3's events...  They had the invasion set, so perhaps the Wookiee home world was fighting a guerilla war from day 1 really, especially if they fought back after the Clones turned.  It's possible, and negates them as an example really...  Mon Calamari though really is a different egg.  Assuming they didn't have an occupation force of course, they are an ideal example of maybe a MAJOR siege of the Civil War where the EMpire couldn't just waltz in and take over...  But as noted, if the Alliance isn't inferior ina nything but numbers, they could've held out on Mon Calamari for an extended time...  Especially if Mon Calamari is tactically difficult to get to, distant from the core, etc. 

As noted though...  technology is stagnant, or so Star Wars seems to be...  Numbers are unequal but numbers become less of an issue depending on variables.  Firepower seems impossible to determine since it was apparant from the films that the Empire couldn't just walk in an pummel you into submission, so there must be defenses to protect against planetary bombardment on some (maybe not all) planets.  The Death Star became much more a necessity it seems to me, than anything. 

Quote
Regarding the technology issue, if the Empire's technology wasn't superior, would they be building things like Super Star Destroyers, gigantic, Super Lasers capable of destroying large starships and even planets , and Interdictor Cruisers equipped with gravity well generators?

The Death Star is the only "technology" I'll give you on this argument...  Otherwise, who is to say a Super Star Destroyer is any more intimidating than a regular one?  It, as a ship, is just a larger version of an Imperator...  Again this goes to the concept of a stagnant technology advancement concept...  A SSD is bigger, has more weaponry, etc., but at the end of the day it's JUST bigger...  It's no more capable of destroying a well defended planet than a starfighter would be really.  It's impresisve, it adds something to a fleet perhaps, but it's not a real technological "edge" at all.  Perhaps SSD's were even developed to free up other ships, make smaller fleets, and aid in needed supplies leaving the core for the outer worlds wehre the fighting goes on...  Again supporting the idea the Empire's getting stretched thin.

Interdictor Cruisers aren't an advantage that the Alliance necessarilly does without either...  The Interdictor is a form of weaponry, but the Alliance could just as easily make craft or weapons to pull a fleet out of Hyperspace as well.  Perhaps they use the same technology to trap Imperial fleets for hit & run missions?  Or perhaps they just ignore the idea of Int.Cruisers because it doesn't yield enough benefit even?  The Interdictor is in a lot of EU material but is never really looked upon as an advantage to the Empire that keeps the Alliance under their thumb...  It's just a known weapon the Alliance has to face and deal with.  I'd go so far as to say that it's likely Pirates and unsavory elements such as that, use this technology routinely even.

Quote
Now, on the topic of shields and hyperdrives in ships, the Empire used them in some small ships, but like you said, not in fighters. The Empire deployed their TIEs in swarms to overwhelm enemies and use speed and pilot training to defeat enemies. Since no shields were on Imperial fighters, this was most likely due to the cost of added shield generators versus the cost of new pilots and fighters. The shields were probably more expensive. Different strategy and budget issues on the Empire's part, most likely.

I'd actually go against both of you here, haha...

The Empire used the Cygnus "Star Wing" assault Gunboat as well as the SKipray Blastboat long before the battle of Yavin, and both ships featured shields and Hyperdrive...  Film proof of longer range fighter types is that the TIE that fires ont he Falcon as it is entering the Alderaan remnants is cited as a "Short Range Fighter" specifically...  So the Empire is in use of hyper capable craft before Yavin in their fighter arsenal...  They just choose to not use it on all fighter types obviously.  Evne the ALliance uses the Z-95 Headhunter though, and it has a hyperdriveless variant for boosts to other systems that would make ideal defensive fighters for a station or starship... 

I also have always had some issue with the concept that the Empire's "saving money" by making more, cheaper ships.  Superior numbers seem like a tactic in space combat that is applicable, but I think the TIE Fighter, Interceptor, Bomber, and other shieldless fighters in the Empire's aresenal are really just due to the idea of the tactic rather than cost.  Ejection seats are a canon aspect of TIE model craft actually, as a pilot is seen ejecting on film, so the desire to save lives is there...  I think the lack of shields and life support on TIE craft was less an idea of cost savings and more an idea of advancement speed, fire rate, or perhaps maneuverability.  Concepts applied that could save the pilot's life.  For instance it's clear that Alliance fighters have a slower rate of fire in the films while TIE's can fire linked at a higher rate, and that may be directly because of the lacking shield system in the ship...  It could be something else entirely though, it's just an idea or possible reason.

Anyway though...

Like I said, I believe the ALliance is a much more formidable military...  I think what we see of them is the sort of "push" they're making to have a much more effective strike base.  A forward base that can afford the ALliance deep incursions into Imperial spacelanes of travel, perhaps hitting them where they'd not been hit before...  I think that what we saw on Yavin IV and then subsequently on Hoth are these "Large, yet smaller, Alliance assault bases".  The Yavin IV base is big, features a large number of personnel and equipment, but it's also easily torn down incase of detection...  Hoth was the same concept on a new planet with less defensible ground to work with as well (big open fields?  Man that sucks).

I'd forgotten about those other EU sources for Yavin IV, Greg, but they all play out pretty much the same...  Personally I'd disevow Battlefront in general because the game is really focused 99% on gameplay and 1% on any cohesive story.  The lack of story is what kills most of BF for me, but that's neither here nor there...  It still sort of fits with some of the storylines that are established actually, haha.

Anyway though yeah, I think we see on Yavin IV a unique TYPE of base...  If we were comparing Mon Calamari and Yavin IV, we'd be comparing apples and oranges really.  One set to defend 100%, and build Mon Calamari war vessels day and night...  Under constant assault, it's maybe in such a location that access to it is limited for the EMpire (at least currently), and the planet's defenses may require a massive fleet to overcome them.  The Empire isn't pushing for that because maybe they're even unaware of how much the planet produces for the Alliance even.

And other similar planets exist...  Maybe others in unexplored space are mining, farming, supplying, and giving the Alliance what they need...  With the lack of expansion that seems quite plausible really since the Empire's only now looking to control Tatooine and some frontier worlds like that. 

It's an interesting concept...  A lot of it depends how you simply view the Rebellion though.  If you look at it from the EU perspective the Alliance is really massive and only "small" by comparison.  They have organized military, multiple large fleets, space stations, safe worlds, etc...  They've also got cells of militia or guerillas on various planets.  They've got planets that refuse to be subjucated by the Empire all together and result in on-going fronts probably as far in as the core worlds in some cases (though increasingly less "rebellious" worlds the further in you go I'm sure).

If you look at things from the films only though, the Alliance is really what you see...  One fleet, one base...  not much more than that.  Kind of pathetic in size overall.  I'd never dug that as a kid, and as I get older I dig it even less, haha.
2011 Rebel Fleet Trooper Gets My Seal Of Approval!  But Where's The Friggin' Holster On Him!?
Jedi Defender.com Contributing Editor, Twitter @JediDefender & @Jesse_James77

Offline Angry Ewok

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Master
  • *
  • Posts: 5506
  • The Ewok Village Idiot
    • View Profile
    • www.TowheeStudio.com
Re: The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking
« Reply #6 on: January 9, 2007, 12:03 AM »
Yavin is used in Battle Front 1 and 2 in the form of stopping escaping Rebel ships and an infantry attack on the ground. It also appears in Galactic Battlegrounds, where you must fight your way to General Jan Dodonna on the ground after the destruction of the Death Star.

Yeah, in Battlefront 2, and the CIS face the Clone Army in Jabba's palace - but that doesn't mean anything.  ;)


The difference between Mon Cal and Yavin are huge. Mon Cal was a formidable shipyard from the days of the Clone Wars, and into the Civil War, while Yavin was a secret base. What I'd like to see is some EU elaboration on why the Empire wasn't striking the shipyard of the Mon Cal as a priority. Were they tied down politically with the civil war between the Calamari and the Squidheads? I'd also like to see a definitive answer on what happened with Yavin directly after the Death Star was destroyed and the Rebels held their ceremony in the temple...

Great discussion, by the way.



Offline Jesse James

  • Staff Member
  • Grand Master
  • *
  • Posts: 31252
  • Slippery When Poopy
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender.com
Re: The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking
« Reply #7 on: January 9, 2007, 01:04 AM »
I think the reason Mon Cal and other areas weren't being assaulted leans more on being spread too thin...  The Empire has control, but as General Tagge points out "how will the Emperor maintain control without the beaucracy?".  I think the Empire's "control" of the galaxy isn't as "complete" as people think...  I think some worlds, many really, accept Imperial control happily because it brings about a better quality of life or a stricter order and justice to the galaxy...  Remember, Palpatine emphasizes that to Vader, Vader believes in it...  Control and order.  The Sith aren't necessarilly JUST about power, and perhaps they want to have an actual improved quality of life and all that.

So I think we see many worlds happy to have the Empire involved in their lives...  They made life better post Clone Wars.  Hell imagine if you were on Tatooine, a slave maybe, or just a guy witnessing slavery, and the Empire came in and eradicated that and took control of the planet and the Huts lost control.  That's an interesting thought I think.

So anyway then you have many planets who feel they'd rather fight than give up their independance from the galactic government...  Mon Calamari is perhaps a great example...  Kashyyyk...  There may be vocal opponents to the Empire as well but they don't outwardly express it other than in the legitimate political arena (Imperial Senate), ala Alderaan.

So anyway, I think we see the Empire spread throughout these many MANY worlds that ARE a problem...  Kashyyyk needs a military force to the point the Empire authorizes the use of Wookiees for slave labor due to their resistance to the Empire...  Mon Calamari, a fortified planet, supports the Alliance militarily all the while 100's (1000's?  10,000's?  Who knows.) of planets are causing their own trouble...  Then you have internal issues you have to resolve that don't pertain to the civil war like the Sepan Civil War (from TIE Fighter) where 2 planets in a system are warring and need mediation by the Empire (and subsequent wooing into the Empire's folds).

I think the Empire can put a force onto a planet, almost any planet, but at the same time I think they are limited in how much they can devote to ANY problem on ANY planet...  Sure Tatooine may have a small garrison on it, maybe a Destroyer patrolling...  But do they have law and order?  Do they have complete control?  Does the Empire deal with Kashyyyk ruthlessly by just simply squishing all live on the planet or do they struggle to maintain control? 

I think that leaves a number of possibilities for "fronts" on the Galactic Civil War...  Mon Cal maybe being one of them, maybe many others as well.  Some small, some large...  Some under siege, some left alone due to their strategic placement...  The Yavin IV base I really view as a base that was (as you noted Brad) secret for a reason...  It's a key forward instillation to strike the Empire and take the fight to their doorstep...  A spacelane right out of the core gets hit routinely by Y-Wings and X-Wings popping out of hyperspace, and you start to A) lose the support of the public fearing for their safety, and B) you start to have a major problem closer to home you must deal with.

Add to that, the Death Star...  The Empire's developed as a means of total control.  It's technically (no pun) not a technology advancement as much as it's just the same technology on steroids.  A ship capable of decimating any defense on any planet...  Unstoppable.  It's the stick dad had, and all he had to do was get it out to shut you up and make you get to bed.  Know what I mean?

The thing of the Death Star then is that after its destruction, that's a PR nightmare for the Empire...  Suddenly A) you've disbanded the senate in arrogant defiance and B) you've now lost the thing you disbanded the senate over...  You've lost a LOT more systems, ones you maybe had on the fence are now abandoning your ideals, and the ones you never had are ramping up THEIR political agendas against you...  It's kind of like the Tet Offensive in that it was a military loss for the North Vietnamese government but it struck a major political blow to the U.S. efforts and ultimately killed Johnson's chances of re-election and dramatically increased anti-war sentiments in the U.S.

The Death Star was the ultimate cause of the Alliance to go into hiding, they lost Yavin and ultimately one could argue they lost the true battle of Yavin, but they also were accepting of those losses and the political gains they made.  It's quite probable that the rebellion surged in support after Yavin in core worlds it didn't have supporting it before.
2011 Rebel Fleet Trooper Gets My Seal Of Approval!  But Where's The Friggin' Holster On Him!?
Jedi Defender.com Contributing Editor, Twitter @JediDefender & @Jesse_James77

Offline Angry Ewok

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Master
  • *
  • Posts: 5506
  • The Ewok Village Idiot
    • View Profile
    • www.TowheeStudio.com
Re: The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking
« Reply #8 on: January 9, 2007, 02:51 AM »
...the Death Star...  The Empire's developed as a means of total control.  It's technically (no pun) not a technology advancement as much as it's just the same technology on steroids.  A ship capable of decimating any defense on any planet...  Unstoppable.  It's the stick dad had, and all he had to do was get it out to shut you up and make you get to bed.  Know what I mean?

And besides... the Death Star plans were designed by the Separatists X years before the Empire was founded.


I agree with you that if the Empire had it in it's heart to fully mobilize its forces and overtake a powerhouse like the Mon Cal or Kashyyk, it's totally possible... even if the casualties would make the victory totally irrelevant... but after A New Hope, how many powerhouses were there? Somewhere I thought I had read that the Empire funded a civil war on Mon Cal to disrupt it's ability to supply the Rebellion... 

The Death Star was the ultimate cause of the Alliance to go into hiding, they lost Yavin and ultimately one could argue they lost the true battle of Yavin, but they also were accepting of those losses and the political gains they made.  It's quite probable that the rebellion surged in support after Yavin in core worlds it didn't have supporting it before.

It wasn't Yavin's loss that forced the Rebellion to change it's ways, and possibly earn it's "rag tag" description - it was the destruction of Alderran.

After the Death Star blew up Alderran, a planet that had been outspoken against the Empire but otherwise non-aggressive, alot of systems had to have realized that it could no longer afford to be caught with ties to the Rebellion... If you sympathize with the Rebels, you and your family could be wiped out. How did this newfound aggression affect the Rebels? I'd like to know what happened with those damned shipyards! At some point, before Empire Strikes Back, the Empire took a major offensive against the Rebellion... you get the idea in ESB that the Rebels are reeling back. In the scrolling titles, it says that millions of worlds have felt the oppressive hand of the Emperor as he attempts to crush the growing Rebellion.

Still, though, they didn't seem very "rag tag" to me. There's no doubt that they saw a pretty decent boom in recruits - many of those were Imperial defectors that would eventually become top brass, too (Tycho? Madine? Trying to think of others)... Beaten up and in bad shape? Maybe... but still uniformed, still taking the trenches.

« Last Edit: January 9, 2007, 02:56 AM by Angry Ewok »

Offline Greg

  • Jedi Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 1850
    • View Profile
Re: The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking
« Reply #9 on: January 9, 2007, 05:56 AM »
Yavin is used in Battle Front 1 and 2 in the form of stopping escaping Rebel ships and an infantry attack on the ground. It also appears in Galactic Battlegrounds, where you must fight your way to General Jan Dodonna on the ground after the destruction of the Death Star.

Yeah, in Battlefront 2, and the CIS face the Clone Army in Jabba's palace - but that doesn't mean anything.  ;)


The difference between Mon Cal and Yavin are huge. Mon Cal was a formidable shipyard from the days of the Clone Wars, and into the Civil War, while Yavin was a secret base. What I'd like to see is some EU elaboration on why the Empire wasn't striking the shipyard of the Mon Cal as a priority. Were they tied down politically with the civil war between the Calamari and the Squidheads? I'd also like to see a definitive answer on what happened with Yavin directly after the Death Star was destroyed and the Rebels held their ceremony in the temple...

Great discussion, by the way.


Hey, Yavin Four was in story mode... story mode!!! :-[

   Anyway, regarding Mon Calamari, perhaps they had underwater weapons that the Empire wasn't capable of defeating? The Republic stormed an underwater city very quickly in the Clone Wars cartoons, but maybe the Mon Calamari or Quarren built bigger and better defenses underwater that would've left the Empire helpless had they chose to invade.

Offline Angry Ewok

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Master
  • *
  • Posts: 5506
  • The Ewok Village Idiot
    • View Profile
    • www.TowheeStudio.com
Re: The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking
« Reply #10 on: January 9, 2007, 01:27 PM »
Quote
Anyway, regarding Mon Calamari, perhaps they had underwater weapons that the Empire wasn't capable of defeating? The Republic stormed an underwater city very quickly in the Clone Wars cartoons, but maybe the Mon Calamari or Quarren built bigger and better defenses underwater that would've left the Empire helpless had they chose to invade.

Oh, I'm sure the Mon Cal had pretty strong defenses... they may even have been the folks who donated Hoth that fine ion gun. There's a huge difference between the Republic beating the Quarren Seperatists and the Empire facing off against the Mon Cal.


Offline Jesse James

  • Staff Member
  • Grand Master
  • *
  • Posts: 31252
  • Slippery When Poopy
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender.com
Re: The Alliance... Ragtag or Ragtag Relatively Speaking
« Reply #11 on: January 9, 2007, 08:12 PM »
Who is to say that what Hoth has isn't just a simple escape plan though?  What I mean by that is, they have a simple shield system, an Ion cannon...  Things to help them escape.  If the tactic for that base is simply to flee upon detection (they certainly didn't seem upset by being spotted by the Empire afterall) maybe that's just the tactics involved that necessitate the weapons they have...

What I'm getting at is that the things used to defend the Rebel bases in the movies are maybe just "simple" things to give them time to escape while true fortified bases on "safe world" planets are much more elaborate...  Perhaps the shields of Mon Calamari are larger, more complex...  Perhaps the orbit around the planet is laced with mines, stations, and other defenses and the planet itself is peppered with anti-air turrets (anti-orbit turrets in this case) such as the Ion Cannon or even nastier...  Like I said before, I don't see the ion cannon as anything but a "standard" that a truly heavily fortified world would have multiples of...  The base at Hoth (or to a lesser extent the Yavin base since we see less of it) seem more like a quick set up that they can tear down in a hustle and move out and look for another location...  Their "hidden fortress" is the base doing some serious damage to the internal workings of the Empire, and so it's a priority target for the Empire to destroy, and since it's deeper in IMperial territory then it's also a more mobile base that the Alliance intends to fall if detected, they just need time to get the personnel and gear they need out and leave the rest.
2011 Rebel Fleet Trooper Gets My Seal Of Approval!  But Where's The Friggin' Holster On Him!?
Jedi Defender.com Contributing Editor, Twitter @JediDefender & @Jesse_James77