Author Topic: The Playset Thread  (Read 8535 times)

Offline JACKOFTRADZE

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3192
  • The Battle Rages On!!!
    • View Profile
    • JCKOFTRADZE Customs
The Playset Thread
« Reply #90 on: October 2, 2007, 05:22 PM »
You guys are nuts if you think these things will be affordable.
Refresh my memory - how much was that 12" Jabba throne?
Originally.  Not clearance.

$200, I have it and its 100% Heavy as **** polystone. Its massive in size if you never seen it in person. What was a major factor into that price was freight due to the outer/inner cube box, it was huge and the inner box has a large amount of EPS foam to protect it. After 7 years of radio control design I can tell you that stuff is not cheap. We get killed on freight all the time.

The playset's weight, if not made of polystone, will drastically reduce freight cost as well as how its packed. If designed well they can keep the overall cube down.

So yes, if designed right they can make this affordable.
« Last Edit: October 2, 2007, 05:23 PM by JACKOFTRADZE »
My Customs & Collection Blog:
http://jackoftradze.blogspot.com/

Offline CHEWIE

  • Jedi Sentinel
  • *
  • Posts: 14421
    • View Profile
The Playset Thread
« Reply #91 on: October 2, 2007, 05:38 PM »
So yes, if designed right they can make this affordable.

I agree - and it's nice to see a positive outlook in this thread rather than hopeless negativism.

Really, it seems like there's always a segment of the community that doesn't think that good things can happen... I remember back around 2000, people insisting there would NEVER be repacks in the line, that we would NEVER see a CZ droid made (I remember that back at the old Yak forum when I thought a CZ droid would be nicer than K3PO and everyone said that an obscure droid like a CZ would NEVER and SHOULDN'T be made)... I also remember the negative nellys saying we would NEVER see army builders in significant numbers... that we would NEVER see figures with ball joints becoming a standard... people saying the line would be DEAD by 2007... etc, etc, etc.   

It's almost laughable seeing how negative some people can be about this hobby.
« Last Edit: October 2, 2007, 05:39 PM by CHEWIE »

Offline ruiner

  • Jedi Master
  • *
  • Posts: 5023
  • raised to be lowered
    • View Profile
The Playset Thread
« Reply #92 on: October 2, 2007, 05:58 PM »
You're right.

I was basing my statement on the vast selection of inexpensive SW items Sideshow currently offers.


Offline jedi_master_sal

  • Jedi Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 2162
    • View Profile
The Playset Thread
« Reply #93 on: October 2, 2007, 06:02 PM »
...I do not want to buy just a Hallway I would want more of the overall scene...

I get that. My thinking though is that by breaking up the sets into smaller pieces it will be an easier pill to swallow for all of us.

Take a look at my example and you'll see that a complete set  (with no duplicate hallways-which we know many of us would buy more of to flesh out the overall set) would cost $300 when finished. While a large amount at once, having the set modular and smaller makes it more affordable over the long haul instead of walloping us over the head with a big price.

Also, while not movie accurate, my vision for the modular sets would still allow for the rooms to inter connect. So just for that purpose, those who wouldn't want the hallways aren't forced into buying them. Like wise those of us who would want many of the hallways to build bigger sets don't need to spend a fortune on scene specific room playsets to get a portion of a hallway.

This really can work if given the opportunity.

Mind you Hasbro would need to roll out with the WHOLE plan at a ToyFair or Comicon and NOT hold back info on the line. Letting us know what's coming out for the complete set will get us excited and anticipating the next set to be released.

I think Theed would be another very interesting setting for modular playsets.
Naboo Fighter Hangar, Queen's palace (advisor area-think where Sio Bibble was in AOTC), hallways of course, the three main areas of the Obi/Maul/Qui-gon fight (platforms/energy hallway/end circular room), even some outside street areas with the backdrop being some of the European style houses. Overall it would be a harder sell than the iconic Death Star, but it does have it's merits.

Jabba's Palace definitely needs to be done as a playset. At the least his throne room and the Rancor's pit.

Sandcrawler as a playset where we can take off panels from the vehicle to show different rooms. This can be a non rolling one or not. But importantly this needs to be BIG! It could also double as a toy chest, thus being fun as well as functional. Same goes for the Turbo Tank (Juggernaut). Take off several different panels on the top of the vehcile to expose the play areas. Lots of room for clones.

Various areas in Bespin would look great as playsets. Namely all the areas where Luke and Vader fight.

Personally I'd like to see Palpatine's complete Chancellor's suite done as several interlocking (not modular though) playsets, but I know that's a pipe dream. But I can dream...

-Sal
I'm just a humble collector trying to make his way through the universe...of toy aisles.
"We are strong. We are resilient. We are American." - President Barack Obama, State of the Union Address 2010

Offline CHEWIE

  • Jedi Sentinel
  • *
  • Posts: 14421
    • View Profile
The Playset Thread
« Reply #94 on: October 2, 2007, 07:49 PM »
You're right.

I was basing my statement on the vast selection of inexpensive SW items Sideshow currently offers.



If they produce something along the lines of playsets/dioramas, it's definitely not going to be cheap - I don't think anyone is expecting $30 or $40 stuff from them.  But I do think there's things that are doable in the $100.00 range that a lot of people would be thrilled with.  I say let's give it a chance before we start saying it's impossible... if that's how people looked at everything (not just Star Wars related), nothing would get done.

Offline JACKOFTRADZE

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3192
  • The Battle Rages On!!!
    • View Profile
    • JCKOFTRADZE Customs
The Playset Thread
« Reply #95 on: October 2, 2007, 09:30 PM »
I get that. My thinking though is that by breaking up the sets into smaller pieces it will be an easier pill to swallow for all of us.
-Sal

I do not disagree with that at all from an idea standpoint.  But from an industry standpoint its harder to pull off than you think. Separate packages, separate art/photography, separate transit tests, more skus in their order system to track, development & timeline schedules, more for their sales team to sell.  Its more cost effective to sell bigger higher priced items than it is to sell several lower priced ones, especially in a high end collector market. Lower production runs & lower price on playsets that are not at mass market are very hard, if not near impossible to pull off a real profit. It becomes too high risk of an investment & can sink a company. There is a lot of development that goes into the toys we buy, most people are very unaware how involved it gets.

1 tiny section of a hallway or room can have a development cost of $50K-$75K alone with man hours, models etc. You have to make that up, pay for your production -run and turn a profit to make the venture worthwhile to pursue.
Think about it, lets pretend we are going to make Palps office, a middle sized room. Cost us $50k in upfront design/model/development. Add tooling cost of $78k. Package misc $10k. 

-We already spent $138k.
-We want to retail it for a $160 playset
-Production run of 5000.
-Sideshow EXF(cost to make) $40 (including royalty to Lucasfilm)
The math
-5000 units =$800,000 in overall sales if they sell directly themselves at $160 each
-5000 x 40 = $200,000 EXF
-So we end up with $200k in costs to manufacture/raw materials + $138k development (package/design/models etc) = $338K sideshow has to make before getting a profit
- Final profit to sideshow if they sell all 5000 units = $462,000

As you can see thats not much at the end of the day to a large business like Hasbro. But for a smaller company like Sideshow its not bad. Actually it should be better but thats marketing guys job to crunch numbers. If they can sell more units its like printing money. If they sell to retailers their profits would diminish so they have to sell direct, in my opinion to make this happen.

So hopefully some of that will make sense why it does not make sense to sell parts of a hallway.
I think this is a very real scenario that we can see some great display enviornment playsets. Leave the doom & gloom to politics.

WORD!
« Last Edit: October 2, 2007, 09:37 PM by JACKOFTRADZE »
My Customs & Collection Blog:
http://jackoftradze.blogspot.com/

Offline Darth_Anton

  • Jedi General
  • *
  • Posts: 9796
  • Whatever
    • View Profile
The Playset Thread
« Reply #96 on: October 3, 2007, 09:20 AM »
You're right.

I was basing my statement on the vast selection of inexpensive SW items Sideshow currently offers.



Well based. I have no illusion that Sideshow playsets will be affordable either, but to me, if it's good quality, the extra expense should be worth it.
"Snark is the idiot's version of wit."

Offline ruiner

  • Jedi Master
  • *
  • Posts: 5023
  • raised to be lowered
    • View Profile
The Playset Thread
« Reply #97 on: October 3, 2007, 09:44 AM »
Hey Jack,

I think your forecast is 2X too high.

They struggle to sell 5K pieces of some of their SW 12 inchers @ $60.

And I think you need to factor in a royalty to Hasbro.


Offline Jeff

  • Administrator
  • Jedi Council Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20016
  • i stay down with my demons
    • View Profile
    • www.JediDefender.com
The Playset Thread
« Reply #98 on: October 3, 2007, 11:48 AM »
And I think you need to factor in a royalty to Hasbro.

Yeah, you definitely have to take that into account.  Hasbro is not letting Sideshow make these things out of the kindness in their hearts, they are still in it to make money.  I heard from a reliable source at one point that Hasbro actually makes about $3 for each $60 12" Star Wars figure that Sideshow sells because of their deal.
Editor-in-Chief  - www.JediDefender.com
Follow me on Twitter - @jedidefender / @jlsmentek

Offline JACKOFTRADZE

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3192
  • The Battle Rages On!!!
    • View Profile
    • JCKOFTRADZE Customs
The Playset Thread
« Reply #99 on: October 3, 2007, 12:37 PM »
Hey Jack,
I think your forecast is 2X too high.
They struggle to sell 5K pieces of some of their SW 12 inchers @ $60.
And I think you need to factor in a royalty to Hasbro.

For a 3.75 scale item, in my opinion, I think thats an accurate forecast for at least 5k. 12 inch is not as popular to collect and there not as many 12inch collectors as there are 3.75. If they cannot move 5k in this scale do not bother. This is very do-able

I am not surprised on the 12' being hard to move. I was never impressed and I personally do not care for their body template but thats for another thread......

And I think you need to factor in a royalty to Hasbro.
Yeah, you definitely have to take that into account.  Hasbro is not letting Sideshow make these things out of the kindness in their hearts, they are still in it to make money.  I heard from a reliable source at one point that Hasbro actually makes about $3 for each $60 12" Star Wars figure that Sideshow sells because of their deal.

OK, I did not know that, but it will not impact too much. FYI - My marketing math was not meant to be spot on but an example to show why low end playsets are not feasible. You actually helped my point more. You can see how things add up fast. Thanks!.
(Keep in mind I am a designer and not marketing, but I know the  general workings)

So it sounds like a 3-5% royalty to Hasbro , so just adjust the my math from my last post. 3% of $160 is $4.8 (Rounding lets say $5.00 we will add to the EXF)

-We already spent $138k.
-We want to retail it for a $160 playset
-Production run of 5000.
-Sideshow EXF(cost to make) $45 (including royalty to Lucasfilm & Hasbro)
The math
-5000 units =$800,000 in overall sales if they sell directly themselves at $160 each
-5000 x 40 = $225,000 EXF
-So we end up with $225k in costs to manufacture/raw materials + $138k development (package/design/models etc) = $363K sideshow has to make before getting a profit
- Final profit to sideshow if they sell all 5000 units = $437,000

As you can see the Hasbro impact took a small chunk but still profitable. Even lets say there is another $37k in misc expenses they can clear an easy $400k on 1 item. For a small company thats great, for Hasbro its a waste of time. Larger companies want a single item to do at least 1 million+ to make it a worthwhile venture.
« Last Edit: October 3, 2007, 12:50 PM by JACKOFTRADZE »
My Customs & Collection Blog:
http://jackoftradze.blogspot.com/

Offline ruiner

  • Jedi Master
  • *
  • Posts: 5023
  • raised to be lowered
    • View Profile
The Playset Thread
« Reply #100 on: October 3, 2007, 01:33 PM »
You're right, the scale has more mass appeal, it's the price I'm concerned about.


Offline JACKOFTRADZE

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3192
  • The Battle Rages On!!!
    • View Profile
    • JCKOFTRADZE Customs
The Playset Thread
« Reply #101 on: October 3, 2007, 02:30 PM »
You're right, the scale has more mass appeal, it's the price I'm concerned about.

Agreed. But I do not think there is a way around it.
If its nice & well detailed I will spring for it.
My Customs & Collection Blog:
http://jackoftradze.blogspot.com/

Offline ruiner

  • Jedi Master
  • *
  • Posts: 5023
  • raised to be lowered
    • View Profile
The Playset Thread
« Reply #102 on: October 3, 2007, 02:57 PM »
Quote from: JACKOFTRADZE link=topic=14787.msg325414#msg325414

If its nice & well detailed I will spring for it.

4,999 left to go.
« Last Edit: October 3, 2007, 02:57 PM by ruiner »

Offline jedi_master_sal

  • Jedi Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 2162
    • View Profile
The Playset Thread
« Reply #103 on: October 3, 2007, 05:32 PM »
Jack I think you are thinking that I was talking about Sideshow doing the Playsets. I wasn't. I would still MUCH rather have Hasbro do them. Hasbro has a much broader distribution set-up than SSC. Playsets NEED to be a mass market thing (for them to work/sell/make money). Making playsets in limited editions is ludicrious. Most kids won't find them online (excpet for the exceptionally savvy ones-and those are arguably future collectors anyways). No, I still think playsets need to be on brick and mortar store shelves for them to have any chance of selling and lasting over the long run. We collectors would no doubts pick them up as well as the casual fan may get one here or there. Factoring in the kids too. Seeing these in TRU or the like will get some kids drooling for the sets and may convince parents or other older relatives) to buy the sets for the kids.

Again making these limited edition, online only, and expensive just doesn't do justice for the general fandom. Everyone should have a fair chance at FINDing and buying these.

Regarding all-in-one sets, there's no way I'd plnk down that kind of scratch for a playset. And seeing the dwindling interest by even the most hardcore collectors on various sites also tells me that the collecting community at large is tired of overpriced or large purchases.

There is not too much over $100 that makes me drool and make me think I have to have it. And of those things that have, they were not "toys." Mini bust or maquettes, maybe. But certainly not a playset. They need to be interactive PLAYsets, not mini sets that just sit there for display and that while may be highly detailed, can't interact with other sets (as in modularity and accessories).

Just my take on this subject.
-Sal
I'm just a humble collector trying to make his way through the universe...of toy aisles.
"We are strong. We are resilient. We are American." - President Barack Obama, State of the Union Address 2010

Offline CHEWIE

  • Jedi Sentinel
  • *
  • Posts: 14421
    • View Profile
The Playset Thread
« Reply #104 on: October 3, 2007, 06:43 PM »
Personally, I don't want to see Hasbro making playsets - I think their attempts look too fake, and would much rather see Sideshow take this and run with it.  I'd rather see attention to authenticity than play features implemented... that's why I agree with whoever it was in this thread that said they really don't consider what we're talking about to be "playsets" but more or less "dioramas." 

I'd much rather get something that looked something like this:



...than this:



If they're good and not costing over a couple hundred bucks, sign me up too. 
« Last Edit: October 3, 2007, 06:44 PM by CHEWIE »