Author Topic: Star Trek  (Read 16994 times)

Offline Pete_Fett

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #240 on: June 4, 2013, 04:32 PM »
Khan had no way of knowing the Enterprise was on the edge of Klingon space with the 72 missiles aimed at him, so he'd never have a chance to trigger a fail-safe.  He couldn't even know there'd be a Scotty around to track the destination of the top-secret-prototype hand-held transporter.  He'd have to have built proximity sensors and beacons into the missiles so they'd never explode and alert him when they've been launched - because Marcus could have launched them at anything.  "See if you can take out that womp rat over there!"  Boom - So much for Zed!

If Marcus' primary goal is war with the Klingons instigated by firing long-range sub-space missiles at the Klingon Home World, then he isn't going to test one against a target on the other side of the San Francisco Bay. You're also assuming that missiles that DIDN'T have Khan's crew inside weren't already used as part of a weapon demonstration Khan gave to Marcus at some point in the development process.

So relying on Marcus aiming these particular missiles at Khan would be a crucial strategic flaw.  And in the movie Khan seemed SHOCKED that there were 72 missiles on the Enterprise - at which point he immediately surrendered.  That action alone suggests it wasn't his plan all along to be targeted by the missiles.  What if they only loaded 12?  Then Khan kills Kirk and plan ruined?

Not if they're the only missiles in the Starfleet Arsenal that can be fired from a ship at a significant distance from Kronos. So I don't think it was the number, just that Kirk could fire them from a great distance away.

In the movie Khan also seems to be someone who Kirk can trust, complete with saving him during the space jump from the Enterprise to Marcus' ship. So just because Khan acts surprised doesn't mean he actually was. Knowing that he was Khan, I assumed in EVERY one of his interactions he was being deceptive.

I'm not sure we can assume that Khan always intended on ending up on Kronos either.  What happens if he killed everyone at Starfleet HQ and Kirk doesn't trash his ship?  Does he still transport out or does he try to find the torpedoes that contain his crew?

I think we can, again, ultimately, Khan seemed to be baiting Admiral Marcus completely. Marcus theoretically, could have said "well, he's on Kronos, let him rot there". And guess what, movie ends. This is one of those things where you have to draw the conclusion that if Khan's on Kronos and Marcus wants war with the Klingons because it's "inevitable" then, that's the reason why Khan went there.

Also, stealing a single portable transporter is a lot easier than stealing 72 missiles.


I don't want to start a huge fight, so at the end of the day I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. As the viewer of any movie, you can either fill in the blanks with connections that you come up with on your own or you can consider the movie flawed for not properly connecting all the dots or for making plot points too convenient. I guess it just comes down to how forgiving you are personally willing to be for the sake of enjoying something.
Peter

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Offline BillCable

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #241 on: June 4, 2013, 05:01 PM »
Also, stealing a single portable transporter is a lot easier than stealing 72 missiles.

Except when you're stealing them to hide them inside explosives you're building at a top-secret weapons lab...  ;)

"Hey Khan - wearing the extra-large trench coat again today?  It isn't even raining!  You're one well-prepared weapons engineer!"
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Offline Pete_Fett

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #242 on: June 4, 2013, 05:31 PM »
Except when you're stealing them to hide them inside explosives you're building at a top-secret weapons lab...  ;)

"Hey Khan - wearing the extra-large trench coat again today?  It isn't even raining!  You're one well-prepared weapons engineer!"

Yeah - this one was a tough one to work out - but for me, it came down to the fact that NO ONE in the facility where Khan was working knew him to be Khan. He was John Harrison - vetted by Admiral Marcus and touted as a brilliant Weapons Engineer. In order for the deception to fully work, John Harrison would have to have been given some pretty high clearance. Good enough to probably get items moved w/o anyone really asking, especially since those tubes and what they were would have been on a need-to-know basis too.

It was a double-edged sword that Admiral Marcus was dealing with and he was willing to risk it stabbing him squarely in the chest - his goal of a Federation/Starfleet at war was far too important to him.
Peter

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Offline McMetal

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #243 on: June 5, 2013, 09:40 AM »
Pete, that is a well thought out hypothesis, but IMHO the audience should not have to fill in that many blanks. I mean, that is a LOT of fill-in, it seems to me. I think if the writing had been better they could have addressed a lot of those holes up front.

I kind of agree that it seems like they were working backwards as far as the plot devices.
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Offline Master_Phruby

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #244 on: June 11, 2013, 10:17 AM »
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Offline Jayson

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #245 on: August 14, 2013, 05:25 PM »
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Offline BillCable

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #246 on: August 15, 2013, 08:00 AM »
Wow - Trek fans have taste.
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Offline Qui-Gon Jim

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #247 on: August 15, 2013, 08:51 AM »
Um.  No.  As long as ST V, IX and X exist, it will be hard to rise to the level of "worst."

Offline BillCable

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #248 on: August 15, 2013, 11:50 AM »
I think there's two kinds of "worst."

There's "worst" from a badly made/written movie perspective (V, IX and X).

Then there's "worst" from a "this is an atrocity which ***** upon the franchise's best films" perspective (ST:ID, Episode I).
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Offline Master_Phruby

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #249 on: August 16, 2013, 12:02 AM »
Bill, don't hide your feelings. Tell us how you really feel.
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Offline BillCable

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #250 on: August 16, 2013, 08:32 AM »
Don't I always?   ;)
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Offline I Am Sith

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #251 on: September 11, 2013, 09:02 PM »
Didn't realize this about the two ST movies, but did know about Raiders:

http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie-talk/easter-egg-artist-j-j-abrams-uses-unlikely-220401105.html
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Offline Master_Phruby

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #252 on: September 12, 2013, 09:28 AM »
It's even on the Well of the Souls playset. It's on the gray cover the Ark is stored in.

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Offline darth broem 2

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #253 on: September 12, 2013, 01:46 PM »
I just saw where the fans ranked Into Darkness the worst Trek film.  Wow!  I thought it was arguably the best, but then again I am not a "fan".  I have seen all the movies.  Most of them are pretty dull with a few exceptions.  Maybe I just like more action?

Offline Scockery

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Re: Star Trek
« Reply #254 on: September 12, 2013, 06:12 PM »
Trek the tv show was less about action, more about ideas and allegory. Problem is, that doesn't usually translate into successful movies.