Author Topic: A power only one has achieved....  (Read 2034 times)

Offline jedipurge

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A power only one has achieved....
« on: March 31, 2008, 07:03 PM »
Who is Sidious refering to.  By all the implications he's probably referring to Plageus, but is he?  At the opera he seems to be blowing smoke up Ani's a$$ just to get him over to the darkside, with the whole the darkside can save those from dying but then after Mace's death he drops the bomb that if we work together I'm sure we can figure out the secret.  In all truthfulness Padme really didn't have that much time for them to figure it out did she? even if things didn't happen the way they did she was already close enough to giving birth, where Ani had already had visions of her death.  Could Sidious have been referring to Qui-Gon?  Maybe Sidious didn't know who it was that had lived on, or maybe he didn't let on to Ani who it was otherwise why would he go over to the darkside.  Perhaps Sidious felt some sort of prescense or influence in the Force that wasn't there before, or like Yoda felt during the Tusken slaughter he too heard Qui-Gon's voice.

Your thoughts?
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Offline inadvertent imitation

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Re: A power only one has achieved....
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2008, 08:32 PM »
I'm sure Sidious was referring to Plagueis. Palpatine's seduction and Anakin's acceptance is a classic deal with the devil. Palpatine throws out the idea of this great power, and if Anakin were to become his apprentice, he could teach him. Like a credit card offer that Anakin never read the fine print about. But, Padme goes and dies, so Palpatine really doesn't owe Anakin anything, completing the deal. Since Anakin has either killed or alienated everyone else in his life, he really has nothing left than to be a slave to the Dark Side.

I've read somewhere that all Jedi and Sith have a particular power that they excel in. I assume Plagueis' was the resurrection thing. I guess that Sidious' power was foresight, so he knew that Anakin would cause Padme's death, so telling Anakin that "we need to work together" was a delaying tactic until Anakin did the deed.
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Re: A power only one has achieved....
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2008, 02:35 PM »
I think that Sidious was talking about Qui-Gon.  Yoda is able to discern that Qui-Gon has managed to maintain his identity through the Force.  And while Sidious might be a master of the Dark Side, he must be very attuned to the Force as a whole.  He might be able to detect that Qui-Gon has managed to maintain his identity in the Force. 

As for him offering to help Anakin discover the secrets to immortality?  I think that's just part of the seduction.  Sidious tells Anakin what he wants to hear, even though he might not have the answers.
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Offline Brian

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Re: A power only one has achieved....
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2008, 12:12 PM »
I think that Sidious was talking about Qui-Gon.  Yoda is able to discern that Qui-Gon has managed to maintain his identity through the Force.  And while Sidious might be a master of the Dark Side, he must be very attuned to the Force as a whole.  He might be able to detect that Qui-Gon has managed to maintain his identity in the Force. 

As for him offering to help Anakin discover the secrets to immortality?  I think that's just part of the seduction.  Sidious tells Anakin what he wants to hear, even though he might not have the answers.

That's an interesting point.  I guess I always just figured it was Plagueis he was talking about, but you bring a good point about Qui-Gon.  Is it possible/known if Qui-Gon Jinn is the first to learn the ability of "life after death" in the Star Wars movie universe?  I'm sure there are all sorts of different things in the EU, but as far as the movie world goes, I'm wondering if Qui-Gon was the first to learn this power - followed by Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Offline Deanna Rash

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Re: A power only one has achieved....
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2008, 01:58 PM »
Qui-Gon learned this technique from the Shamen of the whills
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Offline jedipurge

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Re: A power only one has achieved....
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 11:25 AM »
Qui-Gon learned this technique from the Shamen of the whills

Deanna is correct, from the book that is, but like everybody says if it's not in the movie it's not Canon.  So who knows where he learned it from.  But the shock from Obi, and the "anouncment" from Yoda that someone had found the way back from the dead it seems that Jinn might have been the first.  You might be able to go back through the EU and just figure that it was something the Jedi had lost the knowledge on how to accomplish or that only a select few knew how to do in the first place.

As far as Sidious knowing it was Jinn I kind of figure w/the connection that he had with Anakin he might be relishing in the fact that he can feel his anger being unleashed on the Tuskens, and then he overhears/feels Jinn in the same respect that Yoda does.
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Offline jedipurge

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Re: A power only one has achieved....
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 11:28 AM »

I've read somewhere that all Jedi and Sith have a particular power that they excel in. I assume Plagueis' was the resurrection thing. I guess that Sidious' power was foresight, so he knew that Anakin would cause Padme's death, so telling Anakin that "we need to work together" was a delaying tactic until Anakin did the deed.

I've read that too, but I think it might alos have to do with preference.  Meaning I might like history and have a lot of knowledge about it, but my preference is the WW 2 era of Europe so I'll excel in that when it pops up on Jeopardy  ;)
Harmless is the most dangerous of perceptions, you never expect it to strike.-Purge

Offline Keonobi

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Re: A power only one has achieved....
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2008, 05:01 PM »
JediPurge,

I was rereading one of the Star Wars tales comics the other night and there was a comic where Palps sends Vader to kill the Dark Woman, who was an Old Republic Jedi.  As seems to happen a lot to Vader in this time period he almost gets beat, but uses his power to kill her.  All the while she'd been taunting him about being more powerful and low and behold when she dies she comes back as a force ghost.  I think Vader even takes a swipe at her with his saber just to check.

I guess I should have prefaced that all by saying that those stories are definitely EU.

I'd agree that its probably one of those things that some Jedi knew how to do, but got lost through the ages.  Kind of like how Darth Bane has to rediscover how to make sith holograms, since that too had been lost.
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Offline Dressel Rebel

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Re: A power only one has achieved....
« Reply #8 on: May 2, 2008, 08:56 PM »
Who is Sidious refering to.  By all the implications he's probably referring to Plageus, but is he?  \

It's clear in the film that Palpatine is referring to Darth Plageuis the Wise.  It was obvious that was Palps' master, and that Palps killed him in his sleep and it was "ironic that (Plageuis) had the power to stop others from dying, but not himself."

I don't think there is any question about this.
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Offline jedipurge

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Re: A power only one has achieved....
« Reply #9 on: May 5, 2008, 12:05 PM »
Who is Sidious refering to.  By all the implications he's probably referring to Plageus, but is he?  \

It's clear in the film that Palpatine is referring to Darth Plageuis the Wise.  It was obvious that was Palps' master, and that Palps killed him in his sleep and it was "ironic that (Plageuis) had the power to stop others from dying, but not himself."

I don't think there is any question about this.

Yes but it seems also that Palps was blowing smoke just to get Anakin to fall over to his side.  Remember what he says at his mothers grave side at her funeral, and what he says to Padme in the Lars' garage.  Also what Yoda said at the  end od AOTC, even though he was referring to Dooku he was also referring to him in such a way because he was a Sith.  Lies, deciet, creating mistrust are his ways now-something along those lines.  Palps wasn't above BSing Anakin just to get what he wants.
Harmless is the most dangerous of perceptions, you never expect it to strike.-Purge

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Re: A power only one has achieved....
« Reply #10 on: May 7, 2008, 12:06 PM »
Who is Sidious refering to.  By all the implications he's probably referring to Plageus, but is he?  \

It's clear in the film that Palpatine is referring to Darth Plageuis the Wise.  It was obvious that was Palps' master, and that Palps killed him in his sleep and it was "ironic that (Plageuis) had the power to stop others from dying, but not himself."

I don't think there is any question about this.

You're thinking more about the opera scene than the actual exchange that's being referenced in the first post.  And there are three sets of exchanges about this topic that hold significant bearing on a Force user's ability to maintain their identity in the Force.

The first exchange is obviously Palpatine with Anakin at the opera.  He tells Anakin that Darth Plagueis was so powerful that he was able to keep others from dying.  He goes on to say that he taught his apprentice everything he knew, and then his apprentice killed him in his sleep.  And then says  that it's ironic.  He could save the people around him, but not himself.  So if this is in fact how Sidious killed Plagueis, how would Plagueis have been able to prepare himself to become one with the Force if he had been unaware and asleep?  It's not plausible.

Then there's the exchange in Palpatine's office.  That's where he tells Anakin that to cheat death is a power that only one has achieved.  But if we work together, I'm sure we can uncover the secret.  So where does that leave what Palpatine previously told Anakin?  Apparently Plagueis had not passed on the secrets of Force immortality to Sidious.  But Palpatine uses that bait to seduce Anakin.  And he never identifies who has managed to maintain their identity in the Force.  Should Anakin learn that it was Qui-Gon Jinn, the Jedi who helped free him from slavery, it could be a potential source of conflict for the newly dubbed Vader and turn him away from the Dark Side.

And then there's Yoda's exchange with Obi-Wan.  He tells Obi-Wan that he has training for him, and that he will learn to commune one who has returned from the netherworld of the Force.  Qui-Gon Jinn.

The intended scene where there is a dialogue between Yoda and Qui-Gon would only have further cemented this.  But lo and behold Liam Neeson never even recorded the dialogue and that plot point was left much more understated.
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Offline jedi_master_sal

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Re: A power only one has achieved....
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2008, 12:50 PM »
I think folks are forgetting one important aspect here.

Count Dooku.

Surely he would have been attuned to Qui-gon's death as Qui-gon was his student and Dooku was either as yet not removed or barely remmoved from the Jedi Order at the time of Qui-gon's death. So he (Dooku) would have still be tuned in to the light side of the force. As he became and agent of evil working with Palpatine/Sidious, he shared the knowledge with him.

At that point, I would think that's where Sidious would have become more obsessed with immortality than what he may/may not have learned from Plageous (sp?).

Just a thought though.

I just don't think we can discount (pun intended) Dooku from the equation here, even if my theory isn't fully accurate.

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Offline Padawan Wagaboodles

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Re: A power only one has achieved....
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2008, 10:12 PM »
I'm going to go against the Qui Gon theory. It's a good thought, but it appears that post-death force apparitions appear to who they choose, and no one else is none the wiser. Look at the prequels for that. Vader has no clue that Obi Wan is still guiding Luke--or even able to.