Author Topic: Are the Jedi anti-jedi?  (Read 1467 times)

Offline Master_Phruby

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Are the Jedi anti-jedi?
« on: July 22, 2008, 05:51 PM »
Just listening to a podcast that was discussing AOTC. Looking at all the things that the Jedi missed like red lightsabers popping up everywhere and someone building a clone army, shouldn't the Jedi be seeing these things and put two and two together and do what is good for the galaxy early on instead of wondering what is going on during the clone wars and doing nothing?

Why do the Jedi act stupid and not realize what is really going on and who is really pulling the strings? Why do the Jedi go and attack separtist planets without finding peaceful methods to resolve problems? Why do they cheat at dice games and bend Gungan minds to their needs? Why make the gungans fight and die against the droid army while they, for the most part, safely go into the palace to find the viceroy? Why do the jedi give contradicting messages about using your feelings and ignore them to Anakin? Do the Jedi ever consider that the Republic might really be broken and the Separists might be right?

Everything they do seems to be completely anti-Jedi morals and ethics.
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Offline jedipurge

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Re: Are the Jedi anti-jedi?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2008, 12:06 PM »
"The darkside clouds everything."-Yoda
"Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda."-Sidious

Seems that the darkside has a powerful effect on the Jedi that have become complacent in the fact that they're the only ones using the Force, or so they thought.  They're caught off guard and don't know how to deal with it.  Think about it this way, you can take a harden fighter/army/nation that fought in WWI, but once the Nazi unleashed their blitzkrieg upon their surrounding neighbors so swiftly and effectively they basically collapsed like a house of cards.

I'd starter a thread somewhat similar to this:
Mace states something to this effect, sorry I don't have the exact quote, your thoughts?  Was this a gradual thing so that the Jedi might not notice.  Was it in all aspects of there use of the Force to make them weaker?  Or maybe just in the area of foresight?  And when the Purge comes about does this blockage to the Force disappear since there is hardly any Jedi left for Palpy to care/worry about, or is this blockage continued because afterall even though Yoda could not defeat Sidious Yoda still is the most powerful left of the Jedi and keeping a proverbial thumb over him might keep him in that weak spot.  If this lessened ability to use the Force is still in effect around Luke's time then after Palpy's death could there be an almost rush of Force that Luke had never known because it'd been blocked to him?
Harmless is the most dangerous of perceptions, you never expect it to strike.-Purge

Offline Master_Phruby

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Re: Are the Jedi anti-jedi?
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2008, 09:47 AM »
I don't know how offguard the Jedi were. They had the first signs of Sith presence for ten years until the clone wars broke out. Then they had the time during the war. How blind can they be to see the obvious? You don't need to be force sensitive to see what is going on. Even Padme could see that things were going to hell in a handbasket.
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Offline jedipurge

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Re: Are the Jedi anti-jedi?
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2008, 12:05 PM »
Didn't Dooku say something like the darkside was clouding their judgement it all goes to that, the jedi were overconfident and the darkside exploited it to the max.
Harmless is the most dangerous of perceptions, you never expect it to strike.-Purge

Offline Master_Phruby

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Re: Are the Jedi anti-jedi?
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2008, 12:53 PM »
So a darkside spell is making the Jedi stupid?
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Offline jedipurge

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Re: Are the Jedi anti-jedi?
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2008, 01:54 PM »
So a darkside spell is making the Jedi stupid?
Well in a way, at least that's the way I take it.  Like putting a blanket over a lamp the darkside has "lessened our ability to use the Force"-Windu AOTC or something along those lines.  Of course the Jedi rely so much on the Force to "see" and when that ability is lessened without them even realizing it they can't/don't know how to handle it. 
I've kinda taken like a dimmer switch also, it could've started before Plagieus that the Sith slowly influenced the Force with the darkside so that the Jedi would not notice they're abilities to have lessened so much.
Harmless is the most dangerous of perceptions, you never expect it to strike.-Purge

Offline Master_Phruby

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Re: Are the Jedi anti-jedi?
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2008, 03:05 PM »
I guess the Jedi are so engraved in their daily routines that they can't see what is happening around them. Kind of like playing a video game for an hour but never noticing people have entered or left the room during that time.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Are the Jedi anti-jedi?
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2008, 10:23 PM »
I guess the Jedi are so engraved in their daily routines that they can't see what is happening around them. Kind of like playing a video game for an hour but never noticing people have entered or left the room during that time.

I get your points, but am wondering what you would have had them do.  If they sat back and did nothing, there still would have been a Clone War.  My interpretation from the novels is that they're trying to serve the force and light side by serving the Republic.  Many of the Seperatist forces weren't just trying to remove themselves from the Republic - they were being aggressors against other civilations (who were loyal to the current galactic government). I'm sure many of these conflicts were due to Palpy and Dooku's manipulation behind the scenese, but I think the Jedi felt that taking a side would do more to preserve lives.  Remember, there had not been a galactic war for a long long time, so I'm sure there was confusion about what role they should or shouldn't play.  In that situation, it would be easiest to just follow their exisiting pattern of working for the Republic. 

And if they had spent the ten years between Maul and the Clone Wars searching out the Sith, would they have found Palpatine?  I think the Supreme Chancellor would be a little beyond suspicion and difficult to detect as the only suriviving Sith in the universe.  As for using your feelings, I think the Jedi teach that you need to understand and be aware of your feelings, but to not let them control you.  You need to be aware of your rage or anger in order to recognize it and not act upon it without thinking. 
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Offline EpicGon

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Re: Are the Jedi anti-jedi?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 12:35 AM »
In the narrative elements of a tragedy is necesary to show the evolution of the power of the antagonists
In ep I, Palpatine managed to separate both Sidious and the senator/chancellor roles, because he is a master of deceive (This is one of his first shown skills, heīs strong in the dark side but heīs also extremely cuning) While episodes or acts of tragedy advance both heroes and villians evolve in skills, but there is a diference, heroes evolve in virtue (in the greek sense of areté) while villians evolve in evilness and vice.

In ep II, Palpatine shows more confidence in his power than before, because he is at the head of the Republic. At the end of Aotc (I didnīt remember the lines) Yoda and Mace conclude they canīt trust in Palpy and must keep an eye on his behavior. He accomplished his plans: make the separatist clash with the Republic in a conflict that will weaken both and made him the only option to solve the crisis.
Jedis were fighting in this conflict because they care about people and wanted to safe the most lives.

The two previous episode brought the conditions for the rise of the empire in rots, when Palpatine controls the army to overcome the Jedi with order 66. At this point  all Jedi were distrutful with Palpy but only a hero in tragedy could discover the hidden truth, Anakin, because he was growing in Power and virtue, he discovered Palpatine was the Sith Lord, because he was close to him, and he had an advantage in force sensitivity among the Jedi group.

Offline JediJman

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Re: Are the Jedi anti-jedi?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2008, 01:15 AM »
Anakin didn't discover Palpy was a sith becasue of his force sensitivity.  He discovered it because Palpy all but said, "Yo golden boy, get your sith powers right here!"
"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. " -Jack Handey

Offline Darth_Anton

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Re: Are the Jedi anti-jedi?
« Reply #10 on: September 2, 2008, 10:16 AM »
The reason why there is this discussion in the first place is because the PT story as a whole was told in a flawed way.

A golden rule of story telling is - show it, don't say it.

We had been told that the Jedi were these awesome, great and nearly perfect warriors. We were told this by Obi-wan in ANH and this was eluded to by several characters in TPM. The problem is that we never seen these guys at their height, at their golden age, so we have nothing to reference their downfall against accept for words. It works in the OT, because events were past tense and had become a mythology. However, in the PT, we're in that mythology. The Jedi are running around saving the galaxy like Obi-Wan said. You can't not spend at least one movie showcasing how truly awesome the Jedi as a whole were and then expect the audience to buy into how tragic or plausible their downfall was.

I could buy how they all got tricked, it makes their downfall all the more tragic. However, without the frame of reference seeing how great they were, it just doesn't work from a narrative perspective. That's why everyone is having a problem.
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