Author Topic: NFL Regular Season 2008  (Read 27478 times)

Offline JediJman

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #360 on: January 13, 2009, 08:42 AM »
Yes, out of every player interviewed, the media ONLY ever focuses on TO, every Sunday, week-in-and-week-out...  Only Owens.  ;)

Talk about living in a fantasy world.  Re-read my post and tell me where I said that Owens was the ONLY player scrutinized by the media.  Of course they cover other players and they are willing to sensationalize anything that would cause contraversy.  That's why they cover Owens so much, because you can almost guarante he's going to say something other than the usual PC that comes from everyone else.

The point was that TO gets a hell of a lot more media focus than most guys and the media will take anything he says and try to spin it.  I remember a game last year where they kept showing clips of what looked like Owens screaming at Romo on the sidelines.  There were reports everywhere of how TO was going off the handle again.  Then we actually heard from Romo, Owens, and others and he was just trying to get the offense excited - not throwing blame at anyone.  I'm not saying the guy doesn't say dumb things, but if you don't think he gets more attention than most NFL players then you're living in a fantasy world.

One more thing since you brought it up - I don't necessarily think it's wrong for Owens to come out and say "we could have won if the O-line had performed better."  Maybe that's true and maybe it fires up the O-line a little bit.  He should take on more of the blame himself too though.  Your example of Willie Parker basically says you should never speak out against the organization even if it's something they feel strongly about - I don't subscribe to that.  You could just as easily say "The Steelers organization doesn't put up with free thought or freedom of speech."  If you want NFL players to act like good little sheep, don't put a camera and a mike in front of them every week.  These guys are here to play football, not make pretty speeches and kiss management butt.

And I guarantee you that most teams not interested in Owens are more afraid of his salary than his mouth.
"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. " -Jack Handey

Offline Jesse James

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #361 on: January 13, 2009, 01:19 PM »
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I don't necessarily think it's wrong for Owens to come out and say "we could have won if the O-line had performed better."

Proving to me that you've never been a part of a "team" sport in your life... 

Football teams are not a democracy.  Much like Jedi Defender or other privately run things, it's not the player's place to criticize teammates publicly...  You can have your opinion, you can take it to someone in some authority, but ultimately if you run your mouth publicly you are a detriment to your team.  It's a problem many teams face and which hurts them on and off the field, and if I can't convince you of that then I just chalk that up to your inexperience playing sports then.  Sorry JMan but your arguments just don't hold water to me.

Like I said though, if he's so great, his salary shouldn't worry other teams who want a franchise anchor type player at WR...  It's not like Owens makes so much he can only be signed on for short contracts.  He could be an anchor on a team's offense, but he sails around the NFL...  His price?  Keep stickin' your head in the sand my friend...  It's his attitude.  Teams that take a risk on him usually are taking it thinking he'll get them through tto a superbowl win, and he doesn't even produce that, basically making him a short-term solution/risk.

You think he is scrutinized too much apparantly, and I think he's scrutinized because he's earned the microscope like a badge of honor.  Some teams can deal with that for a season or two, and others think players should show respect to their teammates and their coaching staff.  Those teams seem to be a bit more successful too.  That goes beyond just running your sucker about your teammates publicly, and goes to staying out of criminal activities (Burress, Vick, etc.), and other things that are an equal embarassment to the organization too.  But if you want to screw a good team up, nothing works better than laying blame for losses during the post-game press conferences and interviews.  That'll make the O-Line block better, or the Quarterback look to you in the endzone. ;)
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Offline JediJman

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #362 on: January 14, 2009, 12:41 AM »
Proving to me that you've never been a part of a "team" sport in your life... 

...proving to me that your understanding of "evidence" is seriously flawed.  I have in fact participated in several team sports in my day, so I guess we've learned that you're not a very good judge of people.  Be a grown up and argue your point without trying to insult my "experience with team sports" Jesse.  ::)

Football teams are not a democracy - I agree.  Doesn't mean that being part of a team means you lose your freedom of speech.  If you're too afraid of someone challenging your sacred opinion of the way things are run, then don't create a forum for those people to express their thoughts.  Where is the logic in holding press conferences for players if they are all supposed to follow a script of what to say?  I think you have team sports confused with the military, sir.

And please don't suggest that every team in the NFL can suddenly afford an additional $7-8 million per year, plus a signing bonus.  There's a little something called a salary cap that you may not have heard of, and even if he is the most talented WR in the league, he needs a supporting cast to be successful.  The guy has been on three teams since 1996 and you call that "Sailing around the NFL?"  Brett Favre's been on three teams now too, so I suppose you feel the same about him.  How about Edggerin James and Kurt Warner?  Those guys must all have attitude problems.

Do I think Owens has created the media frenzy that explodes every time he talks to the public?  You bet.  But if you don't realize that people start looking for negatives and drawing unfair comparisons to exploit someone they don't like, then you need a reality check.  In fact, you have no further to look than yourself Jesse.  The guy has been on three teams, yet you suggest that he's bouncing around the league wearing out his welcome.  Does Owens get caught doing drugs or shooting people or dogfighting?  No - he says unpopular things.  And you compare that to the likes of Vick and Burress and their ilk?  That's messed up.   

Listen, I don't agree with a lot of what Owens says or what he does or even the way he does it.  But my not agreeing with it doesn't make it wrong.  Are there potential downstream ramifications?  Sure!  Any time you voice an opinion that differs from someone else's, you run the risk of retaliation.  If your arguement is that an O-line wouldn't block as well for Owens or that the QB would purposely look elsewhere because of his comments, then you should realize that it's those guys who are not giving their all for the team.  Cripes, they are just words after all.  If you're going to go cry yourself to sleep because Owens publicly criticized you then maybe you need to grow a pair.

Anyway, we obviously just need to agree to disagree.  I don't care if it's an unpopular choice, I'd take a talented hard working guy like Owens on my team any day of the week.
"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. " -Jack Handey

Offline Jesse James

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #363 on: January 14, 2009, 01:21 AM »
OK, I'll rephrase it then and say I can make an educated guess you've never played a sport like hockey or football...  My experiences with both, and every experience anyone I know who ever played either, tells you that you do not **** talk your teammates...  It's just not koscher, at any level, be it peewee or pro or between... 

"Why have press conferences....?", is about as poor an argument as I can think of for your point.  Press conferences are the media's digging, but that doesn't mean it should ever be a greenlight for players to decide they're going to "just tell it like it is".  As an adult, they should know that, and to address concerns to the coaching staff...  But, I'm not gonna get my point across and I see that.  Fact is though, guys like Owens are a cancer on their team because they cannot control their behavior and the things they say.  Is he a criminal?  No, but people who do dumb **** (criminally or otherwise) that impacts the team negatively (be it removing themselves from the game, or causing major trust issues and "problems" in the locker room), are a plague to me.  I was glad we let Burress go because he was like that...  He started showing a cocky attitude, and was basically not considered worth the Steelers' time.

Does Romo purposely not throw to Owens?  If I was getting my playing questioned and criticized by Owens, I don't know how I could trust him...  He doesn't trust me, so why should I purposely look to him?  Who knows if he's half-assing things now, or running wrong routes because he thinks everyone around him isn't trying?  Again, my point about "playing on a team".  Those speeches coaches make about looking at the guy next to you aren't bull****...  Football's a lot of trust for all 11 guys, and when you can't even trust your WR to take some blame himself, and he's putting it all on the other 10, it's a negative to the team.

But I'm done arguing that point.  I don't know anyone who thinks you're right, and that talking **** on your teammates is ever acceptable, but like you say we'll "agree to disagree" on that one I guess.  I hope if you're coaching kids though, you're not teaching them that "just being honest" about your team is the way to go.  Kids (and TO of course) tend to be the first ones to behave that way I've noticed.

My personal feeling is if Owens was SUCH a fantastic player, and he really is good, and that how a player behaves and "fits" with his team isn't an issue, then he'd have been locked up long-term as an anchor to a team that was looking to win...  I think that was Dallas' idea, and now they're seriously considering if it was worth it.  Every team deals with cap issues, every team wants a great wide receiver long-term for their offense as that anchor and go-to-guy, and yet Owens is being bantied about as getting dropped because of his disruptive behavior...  I dunno, that just doesn't jive to me.

Again, you don't think team chemistry means much, and that's fine, and neither does Terrel Owens it seems...  I don't think many teams want to put up with a guy like Owens' bull**** though, and know that signing him is going to be pricey, and it's going to be a gamble on whether he'll keep his mouth shut publicly or not...  I don't know many people at all looking for those kinds of problems on their team.  You shyould be able to get a GOOD WR who works hard, and who has some humility I think.

Good luck to anyone looking to take him if Dallas decides to unload him.  I think you'll need it...  or at least a lot of tolerance.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #364 on: January 14, 2009, 11:00 PM »
Well, your educated guesses are about as good as your debate skills it seems.  Let me give you a hand here:

#1 - Argue your own points.  First you try to insult my experience with team sports, which you have no evidence of and were blatently wrong about (twice now), then you try to prove your point by saying "everyone" is behind you.  You're going to argue on behalf of "the experience of everyone you know?"  I'm sure that you've checked the opinions of everyone you've ever known who's played team sports to get their opinion on Owens.   ::)  And I certainly believe that you have ties to the Cowboys front office where you've personally overheard the conversations that took place regarding expectations for Owens as well as their current plans for him.  Please inform the rest of us what else the Cowboys managment is "seriously considering" based on your first hand experience.  Heck, maybe you can tell us what every team is thinking based on you not knowing "too many people looking for those kinds of problems on their team."  If you need to feel like others are backing you to make your points, then you must not have much confidence in your own convictions.

#2 - If you're going to refute a point and call it poor, offer an explanation why.  You say press conferences are a bad example...okay, elaborate. Instead, you just revert to the same crap about Owens being a "cancer."  Look, you are saying that Players should not express any opinions other than positive comments about the team and their teammates.  I am asking why hold press conferences if you're essentially going to control what the players are saying?  There's no point to the dog and pony show if they're going to all say the same thing, right?  If you don't want your players expressing their opinions, then don't have them take the podium.  If you do have them talk to the press, recognize that they're human beings and they have a right to express their opinions.

#3 - Thanks for admitting that you're a poor team player.  You're inferring that you or Romo or anyone who is being called out by Owens shouldn't trust him on the field.  Owens can talk all day, but when he takes the field, he plays to win.  Do you think he would purposely drop a pass from Romo because of something Romo said about HIM?  No chance.  He's a competitor who consistently ranks in top of his position every year.  "I can't trust someone because of what they said off the field" is a poor excuse to hurt your team's chances of winning by not blocking for him or not throwing to him. 

#4 - Professional Sports is a business.  The goal of the organization is to win games, not worry about grown men's feelings.     
I really can't believe you're drawing comparisons to kids' leagues here.  Kid's aren't paid to win games and their coach's jobs aren't on the line if they lose.  I said it before, but you don't seem to be reading it, so I'll say it again.  I don't agree with Owen's comments and its not what I would do in his situation.  However, I agree with his right to say whatever he damn well wants, and I think the media does its very best to shape every word that leaves his mouth into some kind of controversy.

#5 - Refute what I say, but don't make things up.  When did I ever say that team chemistry isn't important?  Come on - that's about the same as me saying that you don't think level of talent counts for anything in the NFL.  Let's try to be honest here at the very least.  Why don't you address things like your comments that Owens bounces around the league despite the fact that he's only been on 3 teams?

What I'd really like to hear you explain is the process by which Owens is a cancer that destroys teams.  We have his stats - top 5 receiver in scoring and yards for how many seasons now?  So whatever else he is, we know that Owens produces on the field.  So if his detriment is limited to what he says off the field, that would seem to indicate that he's just hurting people's feelings and that in turn causes those around him to not play as well.  But he only seems to complain when his team is already playing poorly.  Maybe when someone's not doing their job as well as they should, they should be called out for it as a motivator to make them work harder.  How would anyone know they're not doing well in your fantasy world of never "being honest about your team?"

Jesse, I'm all for being nice - read the signature on my posts sometime.  I don't particularly like Owens as a person and I think he says a lot of dumb things that aren't helpful to anyone.  I guess I could subscribe to the clone mentality that he's a crappy person and we'd all be better off without him, but I just don't believe that.  He works hard, he produces on the field, and while his mouth churns out some pretty worthless stuff, most of it seems to stem from a desire to win games.  I'll take a competitor with a hard work ethic and a desire to win over Mr. Rogers any day of the week and twice on Sunday. 

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. " -Jack Handey

Offline Jesse James

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #365 on: January 15, 2009, 01:04 AM »
#1 - Argue your own points

Without naming names, I've had some people agree with me privately...  But since you want to argue scemantics I'll take back "everyone", and say that several people here have agreed with me on this matter...  I'll add that I know several coaches at a number of levels that would agree with me too...  I think the experience counts for something at least.

As far as the Cowboys front office, I just read a Yahoo story not too long ago (End of the season maybe?) that some of the staff there are suggesting Owens' behavior has had a negative impact on the team and his name's being talked about as one to go...  I'm not going to dig up the link, it was on Yahoo if you want to, but I'm sure you don't care enough about this to look it up either.  This certainly lines up with his departure from San Fran and Philly in at least some similiarity.

I guess I didn't really intend to "insult" your experience with team sports, but rather call it into question since, as someone who's played and coached sports, I honestly just can't believe I'm hearing that someone is an advocate of criticizing your teammates publicly (I stress, "publicly"), and that this person claims experience with sports (especially in an adult capacity...  As I said, kids tend to be the ones to go to criticism of others immediately).

My point being...  You have a coaching staff, and it's the coaching staff's job (not players) to criticize teammates...  And even coaching staff RARELY (if ever) pull a public berating of their players.  I could count on one hand the number of times I've seen Michelle Therrien do it to a Penguin, for instance.  It mostly went against Ryan Whitney when it did happen...  But it wasn't Sidney Crosby, or Whitney's defensive pairing making the criticism...  Crosby's the team Captain, shouldn't he be saying "Whitney is not working hard, and that's a big reason we're not doing well", when these problems were occurring?  I don't know a single person who would agree with that thought, except maybe you Jman, but maybe I just don't know my friends or the people I've had experiences with in sports too well...  Maybe I"m wrong and you're right?  I don't know.

You want my argument though?  My point is that every experience I have personally had with sports is that you do not criticize your teammates publicly, and you let your coaches run the team.  You have humility, and respect, and you do your job.  The best teams I was on were the ones that had trust and caring about the guy next to him.  A couple people have expressed that they agreed with that to me, and that Owens is the kind of guy that takes that away from a team.  I know people (my past coaches, people I coached with, etc.) have the motto that you do not criticize, or you do not allow those under you to criticize as it's not healthy for the team...  Again, my experiences backing my point, but maybe they're the minority opinion then, I don't know.

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#2 - If you're going to refute a point and call it poor, offer an explanation why.
 

Press conferences are an example of the MEDIA digging for information, insight, and anything else they can get.  They're  not an example of a free-for-all soap box that players are (or should be) allowed to just stand on and get off their chest all their woes with their teammates and organization.  I agree with you that the media's motivation is not always positive (by a longshot...  "dirty laundry" and all that ****, and they love those mouthy players like Owens), and that they will latch onto anything negative.  That is for every player every week too though, not just Owens...  Owens earned his reputation because he gives the media that dirt though, and so you can't really sympathize for someone like that either.  I think eveyr player is under the microscope though, every week, for what they say.  But the key here is others either know when to stay quiet, or know when they have a chance to look like the bigger man.

I don't think press conferences and interviews are bad at all either, but I think many players realize that there is humility and tact they should have when talkign with the press, and that they have the chance to give insight into the game they played, and they also have the chance to slam their team (but most don't take that chance, and I think that's the right thing).  Case-in-point locally, Roethlisberger's known for taking the brunt of blame for the offense's performance any given week.  He's fast to say, "Yeah I was off on that..." or some other excuse.  He'll take the bullet...  Analysts are pretty vehement though that, besides Roethlisberger maybe holding the ball too long or having an off day now and then, the offensive-line needs to take a LOT of blame for the way the offense has performed for the Steelers in '08.

Now, should Ben come out and say, "Ya know if Starks would've picked up his guy, maybe I'd have stayed off my back more and gotten those completions we needed", or "Maybe if Parker were a little bigger we'd be a better 3rd or 4th and short team"?  That's been professional's opinions, but I think Roethlisberger (a professional, a hard worker, a competitor, and a team leader) does the responsible thing by being humble...  I also think he does more for his team by the things he says when he's asked.  I think that's every bit as important as the way he plays, and that it makes for a team that WANTS to play hard and is inspired.

I don't think Owens is a "cancer" because of the press, I think he is because of himself...  He has it within himself to address things privately he's concerned with.  He has it within himself to be an example setter instead of a blamer, and a public loud mouth who is quick to say, "this guy needed to do that better".  How often does he ever blame himself?  Doesn't seem often at all to me, but I'm open to quotes...  He was quick to blame the 49'ers, and Eagles players and staff though.  That's not cool to me.

Again though, I'm speaking from personal experience that you do not publicly criticize your teammates, or your coaches, if you don't agree.  It all comes back to humility, I guess, which some guys turn into a strength, and turn into inspiration for their teams.

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3 - Thanks for admitting that you're a poor team player.
 

This shows, to me, that you either haven't played on teams with "problems", or that you seriously misread me as a person.

I'll go back to my point though...  It's the guy next to you mentality.  Can you look at that guy and know he respects you, and that he trusts you?  Can you trust him to do his job too?  Can you count on him when the **** hits the fan?  I've gone over this point already but I'll go over it again.

It's not a case of where Owens is going to intentionally drop balls, or Romo's going to intentionally change a play because he doens't want to go to Owens...  The point is, when you've got guys on your own team calling you out publicly with no care about the team's cohesiveness, you start wondering if he's then half-assing it... 

You say to me, "Well you know eveyrone, and you know the Cowboys front office" etc., etc., right?  Do you know Owens, and that he isn't half-assing things?  I saw some pretty ****** dropped passes in that game against the Steelers at the end of the season, right into, and out of, his hands.  Do you know Owens so well personally that YOU know he's always a competitor, and that when he's pissed at his teammates that he's still giving his 100%?  I bet Romo doesn't always know that when he's just read that Owens chewed him out to a reporter.

I didn't infer that SHOULDN'T trust Owens, I inferred that Romo's trust in Owens may be shaken, when he can't even trust Owens to maybe take a little blame himself.  That Owens, and others on the team he criticizes, will start questioning a guy who questions them...  This is where the breakdown in team synergy starts, when a guy like Owens runs his mouth to the media about his team and the coaching staff.  I don't think Owens purposely drops a pass ever, but anyone who starts slacking because they're unhappy will drop passes because they are frustrated, angry, and don't feel the others are working like they are...  It's basically a snowball effect, and it does happen.



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#4 - Professional Sports is a business.
 

Again, you say I don't know anything about your personal experience with team sports, and I don't, but every level of football pushes the team mentality...  You win as a team, you lose as a team.  I don't know how to stress that, or teach that...  Watch some Inside the NFL on HBO or something?  I honestly don't know how to make anyone believe me on this though.

You say drawing the comparison to kids football is pointless basically, but I say it's important because that's where everyone starts...  That's where you're to learn this humility at its most basic level.  You say you don't agree with Owens' comments and you wouldn't necessarilly do the same thing in his place, but that you agree with his "right" to do it...

I say to you, that football's a business, I agree, and that the team's desire and NEED to win is tied to their cohesive structure of trust.  The team mentality, if lost, is going to impact the team's ability to win.  Maybe his ****** attitude and quickness to go public with his opinion, is a reason Owens hasn't won the big games all the time? 

The argument isn't about feelings also...  Romo didn't cry in his cornflakes over something Owens said.  It's about the team.  I can't stress it enough, and I obviously can't make my point understood either.  Nobody's "hurt", but people are questioning one another, and that's not good for the team or its ability to win.

You say it's his right, and you agree with "his right", and I say to you that this isn't a debate about his "rights".  This is a debate about what IS right, and whether or not his behavior impacts his teams negatively.  Everyone has a right to say what they want, that's just being American Jman, I'm with you there...  But I think Owens is irresponsible for doing so, and I think he's the kind of guy who hurts his team from the inside out.  He maybe isn't on the best team from the get-go, but he certainly isn't helping the situation by saying what he does in public. 

I agree the Media watches him, but like I said, they watch everyone...  Willie Parker was "the bad guy" just some weeks ago when he criticized the Steelers for the way he was being utilized.  He was snapped back into reality by the organization, and the Rooneys reportedly let him know his place...  He came out the following week humble with a big game, after there were threats of being benched for publicly criticizing the offensive coordinator and others.  That's the kind of team standard I like, but that's me.  I don't want an "Owens" type guy on my team becuase that's what I prefer I guess, and that's what I was taught growing up and what I've taught in turn.  I think some teams have regretted not being more in tune with that too.

But I totally agree, Owens has the right as a human being to say what he wants...  His employers have the right to snap his ass back to reality too, especially if he truly wants to retire in Dallas like he claimed a while ago.

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#5 - Refute what I say, but don't make things up.
 

I'll address the "Owens Bounces around the League" comment first...  I consider leaving 2 teams on bad terms, and possibly leaving a 3rd (rumors only though) that you claimed you wanted to retire with at one point, as the type of guy that is at least on the verge of bouncing around.  Poor choice of words?  Eh, maybe...  I think his career would've been less than 3 teams had he been a different guy though, who was a little tactful and humble, which I think is a reasonable thought at least. 

I mean, a guy of his caliber is often wanted to be locked up by a team, especially a skill position like receivers...  3 teams for a receiver that everyone should supposedly want based on his skill alone, is a good many teams...  Like I said about him, his skill alone should drive some team to want to lock him up long-term as an anchor player but teams have let him go because of the problems. 

My opinion that Owens is a cancer is an opinion...  I've seen a guy's bitching and moaning eat a team up inside, and ultimately they've been asked not to be on said team anymore, and the team turns things around...  Good players at their sport too, but not good enough to override their bitchy, prissy, attitude. 

Quoting Owens' past 5 year rating is fine, but what's he done with himself in those 5 years?  Sure he's done fine...  In Owens' mind he can do no wrong, so why shouldn't he?  But what's he accomplished otherwise?  I'm not saying he's the only problem though, of course...  I think some people would say he could've been a better leader, an inspirational player that others wanted to be around, and that he would've maybe done more in those last 5 years...  Maybe not though.  You have your opinion of him and I've got mine...  I think there's more to a guy than just skill at catching a ball, and I think that's what you look for in a player.  It's I guess just a difference of opinion.

People are let know when they're NOT doing well though, in my fantasy world and the real world alike, by the coaches...  Not the players.  You asked where people find out, and that's the answer.  You don't find out on the 11 o'clock news, that you need to try harder, because Terrel Owens told you so, via Joe Blow Sports Anchor in the locker room after the loss you're still smarting from.  You hear it from the coaches, who make it their job to make you a better player.   

And they're smart enough not to tell the media you sucked eggs too...  You'll find it out MOnday if it's the case.

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Jesse, I'm all for being nice - read the signature on my posts sometime.

You're missing my point right there...  It's not about being nice JMan, it's about being tactful, showing humility, being a leader as much off the field as on it, and by knowing your place as a PLAYER, that you're not there to tell everyone else how they're doing at their job...  You're there only to do your own job, trust that others do theirs, and trust that your coaches do theirs.  If you're not happy, you discuss it in private...  If they really don't cater to what you want changed, you move on then I guess, if that's how it must be.  Happens all the time I suppose.

Like you said though, it's a difference of opinion I guess...  Ultimately it shows the mentality of the league too...  Most teams I don't believe would take Owens if he came available honestly, unless desperate for a WR, and even then I think there's some teams who would look to a draft pick for their future.  Other teams throw caution to the wind and pick him up thinking he'll either be a good fit and be happy with what they have, or that they can "control" him maybe (I don't think any team can).

I guess it all ultimately boils down to I'd look for a different WR of any other route than taking a guy that's prone to criticizing teammates and causing drama, regardless of his skill level, as skill is not everything you need out of your team leaders.  At the same time you put more weight into the pure skill of the player, and would take the gamble that the things he says aren't that detrimental, and that his play ont he field makes him worth any potential risk from behavior...  Which seems to be the split that NFL teams have too.  That's fair enough I guess.  My friggin' Tea got cold writing this.  ;D
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 02:16 AM by Jesse James »
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Offline JediJman

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #366 on: January 15, 2009, 02:30 AM »
Wow, I think I just won "Humilty/Trust" bingo after that post.   ;)  I don't know how many different ways you can say having humility and trust and not criticizing your team is important, but I think you found every last one.  What I'm asking for is a connection between statements like this "I've seen a guy's bitching and moaning eat a team up inside" and the actual process by which the team was utterly destroyed by someone's words. 

You seem to see a connection between not calling someone out for poor play and that person being able to "trust" you on the field.  Why can't you trust a guy's ability to play because he spoke poorly of your performance?  Can you not trust a pilot who bad-mouths his co-pilot to fly a plane without crashing?  What does what he says off the field have to do with his performance on the field?  If he doesn't catch the ball, then can see hesitating before you throw to him again.  If he says you should have thrown better passes after the game, then either address it verbally or ignore it, but why does that have any bearing on your trust in his ability to perform?

If Owens is such a cancer that no one can trust him, how can he possibly continue to rank in the top five of his position year after year after year?  Of course I don't know him personally - that's why I quote his stats as a hard fact of how he performs on the field.  I have read a few pieces on his work out routine - Here's one of many that took about 30 seconds to dig up, along with some quotes from people like his trainer.  So he works hard, his stats show that he gets the job done, and he's relatively quiet until his team starts losing.  I'll ask again, given these facts, why wouldn't you trust that this type of person will continue to make plays regardless of what he says off the field? 

As for Owens and his humilty, try these on for size:

I was fined for missing a meeting and it was my fault.

Owens shows leadership, gives speech in the lockroom about the team not himself.

After achieving his 100th career TD catch, Owens criticized the Eagles for not recognizing his personal milestone.  This is a pretty major accomplishment and I'd think there would be some acknowledgement on most teams for this kind of achievement.  But just a day later, Owens ate the humble pie and apologized to the team:

"I've had an opportunity to talk with the Eagles organization and I have learned that the team does not recognize individual achievements," Owens said in a prepared statement. "It has been brought to my attention that I have offended the organization and my teammates. Therefore, I would like to apologize for any derogatory comments toward them."

And if you still want more, I think this guy sums things up pretty well. 

"Did Terrell Owens push it when he starting putting down McNabb?  When he got in a fight in the locker room?  Yes.  Have NFL players done worse things?  Yes.  Were they as publically hated?  No. " 



"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. " -Jack Handey

Offline Jesse James

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #367 on: January 15, 2009, 03:26 AM »
I'll start off saying I think there's a ton of NFL'ers hated more than TO...  Vick's out of sight and out of mind I think, but he immediately comes into my mind.  TO gets the Barry Bonds award though, to give it a baseball analogy...  He's a guy that people just don't like because of the persona he puts on in public.  He's a guy who butts heads with teammates because he takes his grievances public, and he's a guy who has butted heads with 2 organizations and possibly a 3rd now because he doesn't hash out his problems with anyone in private.  But there's clearly guys in the NFL who no team would touch with a 10 foot polle, even if they got out of jail tomorrow. ;)

As far as witnessing a team fall apart because of team-turmoil, I guess you have to experience it maybe...  I can say the Penguins went through some of that though, in Jagr's last years here.  He was a pompous ass, and didn't care for being told what to do by his coaches...  The humble little Czech from the cup years had turned into a gambling, partying ******* who felt his talent surpassed the authority of the team's leadership from the bench.  Ultimately the organization wouldn't budge, and come contract time he was let go without negotiation rather than trying to keep him on as a center to rebuild the team because his attitude interfered with that process (training new, young, impressionable talent) even.  It lead to some of the worse years the Penguins faced too during his final years here and immediately thereafter.

I've experienced those kinds of guys on teams I played for though, and saw first-hand how they drag a team's positive energy away with them, and I've seen it from the coaches perspective too, both for kids and adults.  It's maybe something you just have to experience yourself...  I'd like to think "professionals" deal with things better, but I don't believe they do.  I think it is pretty much a constant regardless of what level you're at.

Why does "trust" become an issue though?  If you get criticized for anything, do you automatically look inward?  No anymosity, ever, you just accept that this person says you're not doing something right, and that he's doing everything right, and that you need to catch up to him.  That your'e the one to shoulder the blame on because he did everything he could, and you're just not up to his level.  There'd be no anymosity?  You'd not start analyzing him, his play, and saying "maybe he didn't stretch out for that ball enough...  Maybe he ran the wrong route, or didn't try hard enough to get open".  Doubt stems from that criticism.  You may look inward too, and self-doubt may creep in...

I think the guy who says, "Ya know I could've done a lot better today", is the guy who his teammates WANT to block for, and who they WANT to win with.  It's a purely mental thing, but I think it's human nature to have those thoughts when you know you've got one of your own saying you're the problem to the public, and not saying he could've worked harder too.  Doesnt' that alone say something about Owens' own work eithic?  That he feels he's apparantly maxed out his ability and the others need to catch up if they want to win because he's doing all he can?  I think it says a lot about a person's supposed "hard work".  I'm not saying he doesn't put his time in at practice, at camp, at watching films, or whatever, but more about his desire to lead rather than criticize...  They're just not the same thing.

I mean, you said yourself, "he's relatively quiet till his team starts losing"...  How does he help them then?  He decides to say it's everyone but himself that needs to step it up.  How much of that could anyone stand?  Some people probably can take a lot, others not so much, and others are gonna say he's just a selfish prick and they don't give a **** about the guy.

As far as his humility goes...

Owens gets fined for not showing up to a team meeting, he accepts responsibility for it.  He also makes a speech in the locker room without making it about himself.  That's great, but is it his norm?  I don't know honestly...  Is he the usual go-to guy to whip his team into a frenzy?  Both things seem, to me anyway, like things you shouldn't ask for a pat on the back for...  It's like Chris Rock's riff on people saying, "I take care of my kids!", like they want a medal or something for doing the responsible thing...  Owens is the leading receiver on his team...  He's to show leadership every day, and in every way...  That just doesn't include taking a dump on your teammates publicly...  Not to me at least, but I guess I'm seeing that some people think that's the way you motivate others.  You call them out publicly to step it up.

I sort of agree about the 100th TD thing, but hey if that's the organization's deal, that's it...  Odd rule but it's theirs.  And I've never said TO is a horrible person incapable of admitting he's wrong.  Clearly, he can at times...  Does he usually?  I doubt it, and I doubt he cares either.  Will he be as humble and apologize to his teammates in Dallas, and instead start talking with the coaches about how to change things for the better?  I guess he shouldn't have to, it's his right, and it's Dallas' right to put up with it because they think he's worth the "trouble", or it's their right to let him go because they see him as a negative influence on the team and their ability to perform.

I totally see why you think he's great though Jman, he's obviously a great player doing his job on the field...  I just see him as someone who could do so much more as a leader, as a teammate, and as an influence to those around him, and I'll just be thankful tonight that we've got depth at WR right now in Pittsburgh I guess.  Maybe he'll be migrating to one of the teams up North this year that are hurting in that position.


By the way, I'd add that I've read where Owens CAN prove himself a tremendous leader...  when he wants to.  And that he gets further by doing so.  I forget what it was on, but after the last game of Dallas' season I recall hearing Owens was one of the few guys on the field trying to keep his composure and get the offense fired up, and playing hard, despite the score and the D doing whatever the hell they did all game...  A rookie on the team even commented that his behavior in the huddle meant a lot to him as I recall, and that he was acting like a leader...  That Owens, if he could be that guy all the time, is the kind of guy that brings teams together, and creates bonds that make teams stronger.  If that guy was around more than the guy criticizing teammates, I think any team would want him to retire with them.  To me it's a shame that guy isn't around more often.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2009, 03:45 AM by Jesse James »
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Offline Rob

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #368 on: January 16, 2009, 07:44 PM »
Not to interrupt this awesome debate... but...

HOLY ******* ****, BUCS FIRE GRUDEN!

Offline Matt

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #369 on: January 16, 2009, 08:42 PM »
That's what happens when you go six seasons without winning a playoff game.

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #370 on: January 16, 2009, 10:20 PM »
Yeah but absolutely no one saw this coming.  The team went from some bad years to back-to-back winning seasons and everyone thought that if he was going to be fired it'd have been within a week of the regular season ending. 

Offline Matt_Fury

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #371 on: January 17, 2009, 12:26 AM »
Some Bronco fans are saying the same thing about Shanahan.
Peacekeeper, when it absolutely, positively has to be nuked in 30 minutes or less.  Or the next nuke's free!

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #372 on: January 17, 2009, 03:04 PM »
I was surprised about that one too.

Offline Matt_Fury

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #373 on: January 17, 2009, 06:12 PM »
Crap!

I was hoping Steve Spagnuolo would stay with the Giants and take over for Coughlin.
Peacekeeper, when it absolutely, positively has to be nuked in 30 minutes or less.  Or the next nuke's free!

Offline Rob

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #374 on: January 17, 2009, 07:01 PM »
It was only a matter of time before he got a job and Coughlin has a few years grace period after the Superbowl.  They'd have had to promise him the job and pay him a crap load of money to get him to stay a coordinator for 3 or 4 more years.