Author Topic: NFL Regular Season 2008  (Read 27004 times)

Offline Morgbug

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #420 on: February 4, 2009, 10:20 PM »
Hooked on phonics taken way too far.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #421 on: February 5, 2009, 12:09 AM »
Oh, if you only knew Fayette County like I know Fayette County!  ;D  Sadly, they've had way too many hillbillies creep in...  But their Fayette County Fair is insane for the Funnel Cakes and Tilt-O-Whirl.  To the credit of the guy that posted the message, he got the Roman numerals right...  Color me somewhat impressed because they really are in an area I wouldn't be happy to be living in.

OK...

So, Justin's link is exactly the link I was talking about that I saw (and read the comments for the first couple pages...  I think I read through Page 3).  I see one other link in the first page though if I searched using your criteria....  The rest of the posts were mostly attributed to the 100 yard runback.  I hardly call the two posts that came up in that first page "hysteria" over the Harrison unsportsmanlike.

So, I looked at the responses for the first couple pages.  There's arguing for both sides like I said...  Don't take my percentages literally, and try to have some "fun" with the conversation because really it's not like I'm taking this seriously...   We're out of the "Pit", so it's ok...  I like to hope that the desire for concrete numbers is something we can leave in the political part of the board...  I looked at the comments and there's plenty for both sides, and plenty of seemingly valid arguments for both (Harrison was a thug on the play, Harrison didn't use closed fists, Harrison was acting like a dick, Harrison was maybe chop blocked or forearmed in the groin, etc.).

But I'll also say that I won't take anyone' s argument on Youtube as gospel either, regardless what direction it's slanted.  It's no different than someone's argument here, as far as I'm concerned.

One guy on there said Harrison used open-hands pushing his opponent the whole time behind the play, and that a closed fist (which you've implied I think, by claiming "punches") was never used.  The same person said that's not ejection-worthy too I believe...  Maybe that's the right assessment then?  I'll take his word as quickly as I'd take any other random schlub on Youtube's opinion Justin, that's all.  I don't think he's necessarilly right, but he's seemingly putting some kind of argument for Harrison together.

Anyway though, the point stands that a lot of people are arguing for the Steelers over that YT clip, and a lot of people aren't.  I don't consider that a mass concensus on Youtube that Arizona got cheated over that incident like you do, but whatever man.  Personally, I'm letting this argument over the officiating go now because it's lost its charm if it ever had any.  I just wanted to point out that while my percentages certainly weren't rooted in any hard facts, neither were your summaries of the Youtube clip being some huge public outrage over Harrison's behavior.  It looked even to me, but maybe I just needed to read through another 3 to 30 pages of anonymous posting on Youtube to see where the slant towards Arizona's POV was?  I dunno.

I just wanted to say too that if you don't believe the roughing the holder penalty happened, just look to Matt_Fury's acknowledgement of the play, or search Youtube (the apparant final word in what did or didn't happen in the NFL any given week) for the footage.  It happened, not sure why you're questioning its existance.  It was a fairly large penalty at the time as I recall.

Something I would like to address though about an earlier argument, where you said I debated "morality" in the NFL...  I'm talking about being part of a team, and being a leader...  not morality (nor do I recall using the term "morality" to define a good teammate/leader).  Morality is not fighting dogs and carrying an illegal firearm.  Being an ******* isn't immoral though, it's dumb.  There's a complete difference, and TO's an *******, but I've never seen him be immoral by committing a crime...  They can both have similar impacts on a team though, if at least being nothing more than negativity and drama that harms the team...  Morality has nothing to do with being a good teammate and leader on your team though, though I do think if you're an "immoral" person you're probably not going to inspire many folks around you...  regardless though, I wasn't mixing morality with being a good teammate and leader in my past argument we had though.  Not sure why you even brought that up other than I guess you're not over that argument like I was.

I just wanted to say too, that my "75%" comment was to Matt, and it was about a pretty separate topic all together...  It wasn't bringing up the regular season to argue the Harrison pummelling.  It was discussing the "Roughing the _____" rules against roughing "defenseless" players in the league like kickers, holders, and QB's, as the league defines them.  I find the rule flawed, that's all.  I'm not sure why you latched onto that since it wasn't directed to the discussion you and I were really having, nor was it really anything important.  Plus I was agreeing with Matt that I felt the roughing the passer call against AZ was a wishy washy call, as they are quite often throughout the rest of the season.

Anyway though, I'm going back to enjoying the Super Bowl...  The rest of you guys have fun if you want to debate this further.  I think it's a shame that, every year after a Super Bowl, this is what "fans" of the game are reduced to regardless of the outcome and who was involved...  It's every reason I look at sports forums kind of like political ones.

As bad as the reffing is to some folks around here though, they don't realize how bad it can be...  The NHL's ten times worse.  The NFL has them beat by a pretty large margin in my view.

I still maintain the holding penalties were a far worse issue in this SUper Bowl, but I guess those aren't that big a deal to some.  Those were out of control I thought, as you could see some on almost every replay it seemed.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2009, 12:16 AM by Jesse James »
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Offline JediJman

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #422 on: February 5, 2009, 12:52 AM »
You didn't answer the question.  Do you think what Harrison did was acceptable or not? 

Jesse, I don't think youtube is a definitive answer for what happens in the NFL. You're the one who keeps quoting the morons that comment on the video.  You say you won't take anyone's argument as gospel, but nearly every post you've made on this refers to the posts of people on YT.  I don't know any of those folks from Adam, but none of them sound very intelligent.  Example: "Steelers and their fans are PUNK BITCHES! and dirty hoes as well!"  Do you really think it's worth using these responses as part of an argument?  I don't.

I posted the video as visual evidence for yourself or anyone else on here who wants to view the play and judge for themselves.  If you want more videos of that play, look at the related videos off to the right after that video plays - there are way more than just two vids.  There were 25 of them listed when I looked, and that's just YT locating similar vids on it's own. 

I did search for the play you mentioned and couldn't turn up anything.  That's why I asked you to provide info on it, which you're obviously unable to do.  The one guy who confirmed it also said it looked like an accident - not very compelling evidence my friend.   I don't need exact figures, but you can't throw around percentages without some truth behind them and expect to be taken seriously.  I know that 86% of the people here agree with that.   ;)

As for the reference to our disagreement on Owens, I'm simply bringing that up as a reference point for your position on Harrison.  You can call it team play or morality or leadership or teen spirit - I don't care what semantics you want to use.  The point is that you took a strong position against a guy for the words he says and called him locker room cancer, but you seem to have no problem with someone who punches a guy, holds him down, then violently shoves him to the ground multiple times.  I guess I just don't understand your value system.  Personally, I'd rather have a guy on my team who shoots his mouth off once in a while versus a guy who attacks others physically because he can't control his aggression, but I guess we just don't see eye to eye on it.  Regardless, I didn't mean to open up old wounds and hope you can see why I thought your earlier view is relevant.

Lastly, I'm just going to go on record in saying that I rarely ever have comments about the reffing regardless of whether my team won or lost.  I think those guys have a tough job and don't doubt that they're doing better than what I could do.  I bring it up in the context of this game however because so many calls were so close and between so many toss up calls going in favor of the Steelers and them not even reviewing the Warner "fumble" at the end it sure seemed like there was potential for bias.  Like I said before, flip the situation around and I have no doubt that you'd be singing a very different tune about the calls.

C'est la vie
"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. " -Jack Handey

Offline JediJman

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #423 on: February 5, 2009, 12:54 AM »
And in the spirit of moving on, here's a great slogan.   ;D

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. " -Jack Handey

Offline Jesse James

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #424 on: February 5, 2009, 01:55 AM »
I thought you cited the Youtube and Google searches as "A lot of chatter online" in favor of your case...  I was simply saying that "chatter" you cited was equally in favor of the Steelers it seemed.  Youtube videos seemed to indicate that.  That's all I cited...  You brought up the sources, not me, and you brought them up as evidence of "chatter" that the Steelers were wrong...  I don't think that's a misinterpretation of your intent.

I didn't cite anyone's opinion on Youtube as the definitive answer either...  Actually I was quite careful to say I don't believe anyone, including the guy who said Harrison was using open-hands and it was legal.  It was just one of the things I read that agreed with the Steelers winning, just as I saw guys making arguments against it, etc. etc.  I'm simply pointing out that your idea of "internet chatter" that Harrison's play deserved his being ejected was basically bunk, and that the "chatter" you brought up was seemingly even between those who are for, and against the Steelers win.  That's all.

And to answer your question, I 100% believe Harrison got the penalty he deserved, and that he did NOT deserve ejection from the game.  The game was chippy, the refs let it get that way too much, they assessed a penalty for a player using open-hands to hit another player (I still want to see a closed-fist punch as you claim) after and away from the play.  That resulted in a call that didn't mean much due to the field position, but just because the call's negated due to the field position doesn't mean you should then somehow try to assess a heavier-handed penalty to make up for it.  I don't think ejection was the right call, and I'm pleased it didn't happen.  The posting of the Youtube clip reinforced my opinion to me, actually, as I noted.

Quote
That's why I asked you to provide info on it, which you're obviously unable to do.

So I guess Matt_Fury's full of ****, eh?  Seeing as how he agreed with me that it existed.  Did you watch the game, or just forget this?  It was a pretty big play/important penalty at the time actually IIRC, but I just didn't feel like looking it up...  Matt, if you could clarify that it happened though, I'd appreciate you posting that it did happen...  I'm assuming we didn't disagree about something fictional. ;)  Whether Matt agreed with me on it or not isn't relevant, is it?  No argument was being made except between he and I, who both saw it happen, and both have our own opinion on it...  You missed it, so feel free not to join in that completely separate discussion if you wish.  I just was saying it happened because you seemed to want to argue that point with me, for whatever reason, which seems like a habit with you lately...  I'm sure 100% of the people here have noticed that lately. ;)

Quote
As for the reference to our disagreement on Owens, I'm simply bringing that up as a reference point for your position on Harrison.  You can call it team play or morality or leadership or teen spirit - I don't care what semantics you want to use.  The point is that you took a strong position against a guy for the words he says and called him locker room cancer, but you seem to have no problem with someone who punches a guy, holds him down, then violently shoves him to the ground multiple times.  I guess I just don't understand your value system.  Personally, I'd rather have a guy on my team who shoots his mouth off once in a while versus a guy who attacks others physically because he can't control his aggression, but I guess we just don't see eye to eye on it.  Regardless, I didn't mean to open up old wounds and hope you can see why I thought your earlier view is relevant.

There's no semantics between things that aren't the same...  Morality is irrelevant to that discussion.  First, I would like to see proof (since you demand it, I can too) of a closed-fist punch.  That is 100% relevant to this issue with Harrison, so I would like it if you could provide close-ups of punches.  Pushes, I agree with, and open-handed shoving, yes I'm 100% there with you.  And thus I feel the penalty assessed was completely appropriate.  Ejection though?  No.  Second, I'd like to know if he was chop-blocked or ball-tapped to illicit this response from Harrison...  I think that's relevant too.  I doubt he did this simply out of the blue, and completely unprovoked...  I like to think he's a professional, so there's some kind of provocation there likely.

But, to your point...  It's immoral to carry an illegal gun, or fight dogs.  Burress or Vick maybe were good leaders in the locker room though.  They maybe were guys their teammates loved, and miss having around.  Spouting off your mouth about your teammates, coaches, and team owners at press conferences  is not immoral, nor did I ever claim it to be.  It's bad leadership for your team...  These are different topics, and I'd think most people see that.  I'm sure the good leaders of a football team are aggressive, and I'm sure they don't look fondly on their opposition on game day.  I'm sure they hit with the idea of punishing their opponents...  Maybe Harrison had a guy chop block him at the knees, and he felt if someone's going to do that and risk his career, he's going to take a couple extra shoves at the guy?  Maybe throwing an illegal block or low hit is immoral, and got answered with something equal?  I'm not sure the guy did that though, so I'm not saying that happened, but I do think Harrison wouldn't just "explode" for no reason like that. 

At the same time, and again to answer you, I think he got the penalty he deserved and that was that...  Now, had he balled a fist and punched the guy up under the mask, or jerked him around by his facemask or something, or even hurt the guy, then yes I think ejection's warranted completely.  That didn't happen though, and it was just extra shoving/pushing, not "punching".

The situation was flipped by the way.  1996 I recall not being very pleased at the outcome, and I didn't think much of the officiating in the game, but I went to school the next day and moved on without griping about it with my buddies...  It was nice to just see them in the big game when I was old enough to appreciate it, and sure some things didn't go the Steeler's way, but some things did, and the Steelers could've played better to win for sure despite being massive underdogs (IIRC)...  Just like Arizona could've done different things to win, like clock management perhaps.  I am just a guy who doesn't adhere to the notion that referees decide games...  Teams do.  Again, that's the kind of things you teach 9 and 10 year olds you coach, so you don't hear that it was everyone's fault but their own after the game.

Hell, if I bitched about officials deciding games, I think I'd have a lot of losses to the Patriots to gripe about...  Some of those games were attrocious to watch over the last 10 years of playoff games, but the Steelers didn't do a lot right to win too.  C'est la vie, indeed.

I'll add too, officials make bad calls without a doubt, so I'm not disputing that...  I don't think everything in this SB was called well by any means, thus my anger at all the holding calls that went unanswered.  I just don't agree that refs decide games, and they didn't decide this one either.  I think it's  lame on fan's behalf when they use it as a crutch, and the game ends the way it ends.  That's me though.

Last year the Penguins had some seriously ****** officiating right into the Stanley Cup Finals, and they lost the finals to Detroit.  I think there were many non-calls that should've been made, but the Penguins lost because they didn't get it done when they could have against Detroit...  The refs didn't lose the cup for the Penguins, the Penguins lost the cup for the Penguins.  I played hockey for over 10 years, it's probably my biggest sports passion (even above football), and I wouldn't even consider claiming the refs lost the cup for the Penguins.  Life's a bitch, and I got over it the next day.  I may take note of a non-call or bad call, but it's never "why" there's a loss to me...  The loss is on the team's shoulders, and theirs alone.  Not everyone agrees with that I guess, but it's the way I was brought up and the way I've taught the kids I coached as well.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2009, 02:07 AM by Jesse James »
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Offline JediJman

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #425 on: February 5, 2009, 09:53 AM »
I'm kind of done with this topic as the comments are getting reptitive, but you're lying and that bothers me.

#1 - I didn't say jack about "Chatter" on YouTube. Ever.  Read my posts.  I didn't even know that there were comments posted about videos on YouTube until you mentioned it and I went to look for it.  What I said was that there is a lot of chatter online about the Harrison beat down.  If you can face the truth, do a search on Google for "harrison francisco super bowl" and you'll see plenty of "Chatter" about this.  I won't offer up a number or false stats - its pretty obvious if you take 30 seconds to look that people were upset about his actions.

#2 - I only mentioned Youtube in reference to actual video of what happened.  There are dozens of videos of Harrison going berserk on Francisco.  You keep talking about how "chippy" the game and that there were "Scrubs" all over, yet there appear to be no videos of any other brawls or anyone running over your place holder.  You compared that play to Harrison's actions - if it was an intentional attack on another player remotely similar to what Harrison did, then why are there no videos of it or articles about it?  After all, you keep talking about what a big play it was - it should be very easy for you to back that up if true. 

#3 - Where did I say that Matt_Fury is full of ****?  I can't believe that you're trying to make it look like I'm refuting him, when in fact he was refuting you.  Here's his quote since your memory seems to be lacking:

I don't think it was an equivalent thing Jesse.  Not saying it should not have been a penalty, but I think forward momentum had a lot to do with him hitting the ball holder.

I'm not going to speak for someone else like you will, but I took that to mean that he didn't think it was an intentional beat down similar to Harrison's.  The question is quite obviously not about whether the play happened, but whether or not it's a fair counter point to what Harrison did.  I say it was not and seems pretty clear that Matt_Fury felt the same way.  And trying to say that you were having a seperate conversation with Matt is weak.  His comment refuted your reply to my post, so it's all one big happy conversation.  If you want to have a private conversation, don't post in a forum.  "Matt" said something similar to IFETT in a conversation a week ago and I find that arguement to be plain dumb.  No one here has any more or less right to comment on a post than anyone else.

#4 - Can we please hear more about how you coach kids?  Serioiusly, I know this is your fall back position to anything sports related, but it's really not relevant.  Would you tell your kids that what Harrision did was okay?  If so, you should quit your job ASAP.  I still can't believe you're defending this guy, especially by saying maybe someone wronged him, so he's getting them back.  Is that the leadership and conduct you're teaching your kids?  God, I hope not. 

#5 - You can't seem to escape the notion that I'm a bitter Cardinals fan bitching that they should have won the game if not for the refs.  How many different ways do I need to tell you that I'm not a Cardinals fan and that I'm not saying the game should have gone to the Cardinals?  I've very clearly said that I think Harrison should have been thrown out for his actions and that the Warner "fumble" at the end of the game should have been reviewed.  If that happens and the outcome is the same, then I'm fine with the Steelers winning. 

Sure, the Cardinals could have done more to win the game.  I thought the Holmes TD near the end was legit and it was silly that three Cardinals were right in front of him watching him make the catch, especially since the play before was pretty much the same thing.  But if you don't see the impact that certain calls have on the game, then you're blind.  Everyone here seems to agree that it was a close game with a lot of close calls.  I believe the majority of close calls went to the Steelers.  Any one of those could have easily gone in the Cardinals favor, so you have to admit that its at least possible that Arizona would have won if one of those calls went the other way.  Its pretty simple logic then that one different close call decision by the refs might have changed the outcome of this game.  They are obviously not the only factor in a game, but yes, the decisions made on close calls by refs are a big part of why one team wins and another loses, as was the case here.

We obviously just don't see eye to eye on football.  If my Packers were in this situation I would be elated that they were the new SB champs just like you are with, but if AJ Hawk had pulled the stunt that Harrison pulled, I'd be in full support of dropping him from the team no matter how good he is.  It's a violent enough sport without guys who can't control their aggression beating up on someone who's on the ground and clearly not fighting back. 

Anyway, I'm going to follow the advice from my previous post and move on until we can find something else football related to argue about.   ;)
"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. " -Jack Handey

Offline GrandMoffNick

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #426 on: February 5, 2009, 10:45 AM »
I was wondering if Jesse James or JediJman have an opinion on the Super Bowl? Please post if you do. ;)
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Offline P-Siddy

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #427 on: February 5, 2009, 11:46 AM »
The 2008 season is so last week.  ::)  ;)

Offline JediJman

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #428 on: February 5, 2009, 01:26 PM »
The 2008 season is so last week.  ::)  ;)

 ;D

I know, but what else are we going to talk about until the draft?   :'(
"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. " -Jack Handey

Offline Jesse James

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #429 on: February 5, 2009, 02:13 PM »
I'm gonna make these short answers (as much as I can) just so you know where I was coming from, because I'm not even kinda done, I simply am done with this.  It's definitely repetitive.

1 )  You cited Youtube and Google when you said there was Chatter going on...  Not me.  I just assumed you knew people have conversations about every Youtube clip below them.  I'm sorry you didn't know that...  The conversations really not much different on Youtube than the Google searches though, so moot point IMO.  There are plenty of people who aren't upset and don't think he deserved thrown out, and that Harrison got the penalty he deserved and the circumstances afterwards negated it too...  People are arguing both points, and I don't give a **** about either side, just my own opinion, whether they agree with me or not at this point.  I was reading some conversation on this at places like Yahoo sports, ESPN, etc., and it's all pretty much the same it seems.  People are having the same argument we are it seems, with no end in sight.

2 ) I never said the game's chippiness was equal to what Harrison did, however I don't believe pushing on the sidelines is much different than pushing a guy who potentially chop blocked you either.  I'm just saying, and the commentators mention it in the Youtube clips you cite, that the game's chippiness was what lead to that play, and it was getting out of control on BOTH sides.  Harrison's was definitely the worst, but I still say he didn't use a closed fist, he didn't "punch" anyone like you have stated several times without proof.  He pushed someone, and that's what earned him the penalty he got.  You want him ejected for "punches" nobody threw.

3 ) I'm busting your balls partly on this...  Matt and I were debating a play you kept saying didn't exist, that you didn't see, that maybe you were grabbing a beer while it happened.  I was simply saying it existed and I don't give a **** about this to prove it to you...  It was a joke and just proving the play existed.  Matt and I disagree on whether it was "bad" is all.  I think it was similarly bad to Harrison's play, but I'm 100% sure that even if I did prove this play with video to you, you'd disagree, becuase I find you completely biased on this matter.  I know,  I know, I know, spare me your speech on impartiality...  I don't believe you, I think you're not being honest about that, and that's all I have to say.  I don't care to argue THIS point any more than I care to carry on arguing with you on these OTHER points.  ;)  I'm pretty sure you feel similarly.

Again, I'm just being a ball buster and using Matt and I's separate conversation about that play that the play actually existed, that's all.  Matt made your argument as well as you would've made your own I think, and it would've ended in another disagreement.

4 ) Actually most people consider expeience with the game relevant...  I know I do, be it playiing it at various levels, or actually being requested to coach it, and having physical involvement with it on and off the field in some organization.  It's something everyone I've worked with on it takes it very seirous.

I teach kids sportsmanship, leadership, and the difficulty and intricacies of the game so they're prepared to move up to the high school level and play competitively.  If the kids ask me if James Harrison should've been pulled from the game, I'll tell them 100% unequivocally no...  That he let his aggression get the better of him, that he lost his cool, and that a good player doesn't do that, and that he got a penalty for it that could've really cost his team a lot.  I'll also teach them that football is a rough, physical sport, and that the older you get the more physical it becomes, and that they must learn to control themselves in all situations because it's for the good of their team, and as examples to their teammates, to do so.

To be honest, I'm proud to say I've never had a kid on my defenses, any season, be ejected from a game.  And if you think kids don't do things like punch one another after a whistle or start scrums, you're mistaken.  Youth rules actually require ejection for children due to their age, if they scrum at all after the whistle.

I don't think I could ever not cite that I actually am still involved, on and off the field, with a football organization, as a positive to my background though.  I think it's sort of a jerkoff move to be critical of that with me, but whatever man.  My mind is straight on MY actual experience with football, and if that makes me a lesser person in your eyes, well I'm sorry you see it that way.  It seemed relevant to what you were questioning me on, but I guess you disagree.

5 )   Just so you feel better, I agree the Warner fumble needed reviewed.  I know we really didn't touch on that much, but I agree it at least should have been reviewed.  On the replays I saw, I still think it was a fumble, but it was a very reviewable play because it was close like the first Warner fumble that got called back.  I thought I'd heard on the news that the NFL said it was reviewed upstairs immediately and ruled the right call on the field, but regardless it doesn't hurt to go to the hoods and make sure the call on the field was right or wrong by the guys actually down there.

I get that you're not from Arizona, and only were rooting for them because they're underdogs or whatever, but I still think you're biased and not being completely honest here...  You feel the same way about me because I'm a Pittsburgh fan.  I know you're not a die-hard AZ fan though, so don't worry.  I've heard you on that.  I think every MN guy's aware you're a Packers fan.  I still think you're wrong on Harrison being thrown out though, and I think Warner fumbled (though his earlier one called back was 100% correct because he had control of the ball just as it went forward).

Again, I pointed out what I teach kids because that's what you teach at the most basic levels of the game, and yet we've got adults in a forum arguing that officials are who always decide this sport, week-in-and-week-out...  I guess I'm basically saying the people who do that, are no better than 8 year olds.  You can cry about reffing all you want, but at the end of the day the TEAM decides their fate.  AZ did a lot of things wrong, and a lot of things right, and calls went both ways in that game (I think more holding calls went AZ's way than ours...  Could that have decided the game too?).  Mike Tomlin said it best that Pittsburgh came to play 60 minutes of football, not 58.  That's what won the game to me.

I find adults using reffing as their basis lame is all...  If the Steelers were in the reverse situation, I'd say the same thing to Steelers fans crying and whining that officiating lost them the game.  If the Steelers had lost, I'd be saying "WTF was up with the offensive line?", or "Where did our #1 defense go to because our secondary ate ass!?".  There's always someone other than the zebras to blame, I guess is my point.  The guys who seem slanted towards AZ don't seem to see Fitzgerald not being an entity on the field till the second half, all the dropped passes, the run game getting stonewalled, and the AZ secondary 100% ******* up.  They don't seem to count that.

I completely agree though, that we are not on the same page as football fans.  Not even close.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2009, 02:14 PM by Jesse James »
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Offline JediJman

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #430 on: February 5, 2009, 03:38 PM »
So much for short replies.  You're not saying anything new, so I'm not wasting any more time on a detailed response.  You've obviously gone to the trouble of looking through pages of YT comments and posting paragraphs about some "roughing the holder" play that was "similarly bad to Harrison's play."  If you're willing to go all that trouble, why not just quickly find a vid or an article about it as proof that it was jsut as bad.  For someone who's not interested in proving their point, you sure have a lot to say about it.

Frankly, I don't appreciate you questioning my integrity or honesty when I've clearly layed out the facts and provided proof.  You've provided no evidence of any wrong doing on the cardinals part, you've thrown out unfounded stats, and you flat out lie about what's been said by others - not much integrity in that my friend. 

Anyway, you cleared everything up for me when you said you'd tell your kids that Harrison's actions were wrong simply because they could have "cost his team."  So who care's about treating other players with respect - it's fine to beat on someone if it's not detrimental to the team, right?  Is your lesson that Harrison should have waited until after the game to attack Francisco, so that it didn't hurt his team?  Ridiculous.

Congrats on the SB win - I hope your favorite thug enjoys his pretty new ring.

Speaking of which, here's another fun Harrison beat down of a Browns fan on the field.  Picking the guy up off his feet and throwing him to the ground is classic, but I can't tell if he's holding down the guy's throat or his head. Doesn't really matter - at least it didn't hurt his team! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC3xNSiRTDc&feature=related

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Offline Jesse James

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #431 on: February 5, 2009, 03:56 PM »
I shortened them up for each point you laid out numerically at least...  Still, you laid out of a lot of stuff, so replies were gonna mount up I guess.

"Gone to the trouble" of looking at the Youtube pages?  Are you serious?  You realize you can scroll down and see them...  I read maybe 3 deep?  Hardly difficult since I had the page open to view the video you were so adamant about.

I didn't appreciate you claiming MY integrity was in question either Justin...  I've been very honest that I wouldn't have cried like this about the reffing if the shoe were on the other foot, and how I feel about being on either end, winning or losing, in a football game...  I've been there in 1996, it's not fun, but it wasn't the fault of officiating...  I was there last year with the Penguins in the Stanley Cup Finals...  Sucked, and it was the first time they got that far and lost.  It sucked, but it wasn't the reffing that lost the series...  It's the team that loses those games.

I asked you to show me Harrison "throwing punches", you didn't...  So the burden of proof for both arguments is on each of us.  I totally believe YOU that you think his actions warranted an ejection, but I totally disagree and I feel they didn't.  It's a difference of opinion.  I simply don't think his after-play pushing was as bad as claiming punches were thrown, that's all.

And yes, I'd tell them Harrison's actions would cost the team...  You teach kids to think about the team, and to control themselves.  You cannot teach them to be timid though, or to not be physical.  It's a physical game.  It's a very fine line teaching sportsmanship in a game like football...  You are hitting an opponent, but you have to respect him.  You hit the way the rules allow you....  Anything more is unsportsmanlike.  Anything more costs your team, and you owe them and yourself better than that.  Maybe you'd have to be there to understand, I don't know.  It breeds some good ball players though teaching that, and teaching them not to talk smack on the other team and their own teammates.

I don't recall saying you teach kids to handle ANYTHING off the field.  Again, another lesson that, if you're into an organization on any level, you learn that you handle your aggression on the field and by the rules.  You don't run your mouth, you play to win and by the rules, so you can be proud when you put the W up in the column.

If you are trying to say Harrison dropping that Cleveland fan is "wrong" on any level, I officially think you're insane.  The guy illegally ran on the field.  Who knows if he's out to hurt somebody...  Dude got less than he deserved if you ask me.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #432 on: February 5, 2009, 07:07 PM »
Jesse, no one cares about 1996 or the penguins.  I really don't care if there were bad calls in every game over the last decade or if this is the first game ever where the officiating was a big deal.  The calls were questionable in this game and the outcome could have very easily gone the other way several times in this game or at the very least poorly handled.  I think there is a Hockey thread if you want to go there and talk about the penguins.   ;)

We can (obviously) debate forever about whether Harrison's hand was open or not - I could care less if you want to call it a punch or not.  Like I said, an open palm hit is just as effective as a punch, so I'll agree to that if it really makes a difference to you.  It was a violent hit followed by unprovoked, repeated shoving to the ground no matter what terminology you want to use.  You're still being two-faced about the Harrison thing. 

You stated what you would tell your kids earlier and it had nothing to do with respecting your opponent - it had to do with "not costing your team."  Hitting someone after the game doesn't hurt the team's chances of winning does it?  So why would your kids think that's wrong?   That's a very clear example of unsportsmanlike conduct - I don't understand why you think sportsmanship is a very fine line.  I've played several sports in my day and was never confused about whether my actions or other's actions were right or wrong.  If you're confused by this, I again seriously suggest you re-evaluate your decision to coach. 

As for the Cleveland game, you've got a warped sense of right and wrong.  I do think Harrison was wrong in dropping him to the ground.  Here is a guy who clearly can't resisit the opportunity to lay the hurt on someone else.  It's not Harrison's job to catch some nutbar on the field, is it?  I mean, they do have a few security guys at these games right?  Even if he wants to help out, I think there's probably a better way to restrain some drunk than lifting him off the ground, chucking him down, and holding him down by the neck.  You're talking about a huge professional athlete in full pads going against a lightweight drunk here - what if he had broken the guy's back or shattered his spine?  Yeah the guy "illegally" ran on the field, so he deserves to die, eh?  Do you speed up to hit pedestrians walking outside of the cross walk as well?
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #433 on: February 5, 2009, 09:49 PM »
You questioned my "integrity" on this matter, and I told you I've been in this position in the past, and I didn't cry about it.  My teams lost, and it sucked, and I felt a lot of things could've gone their way that didn't, and those things could've maybe been important to the outcome, and I got over it the very next day without crying a river.  I'm just showing you that, while you think I'm lying to you or whatever, that I've been there...  This time YOU are there, and instead of manning up, you're saying the game wasn't decided on the field by the teams.  I simply don't have respect for that.  You don't respect me or my view either, and that's cool.  No biggie...  Just showing you that I've been in the other person's shoes in my time, since you kept saying, "If it were the other way, you'd be acting just like me".  I'm here to tell you I'd never behave like that because I view sports completely different than you and feel officiating is part of the game, and that the teams decide the ultimate outcome.

And yes we could debate Harrison's hands being open or closed, but why not just look at the tape?  You provided it Justin, give it a look again.  They're open the whole time.  And if you honestly believe a punch and a push are the same thing, hey man I just chalk that up again to a lack of experience on your part I guess...  Most who've been punched and pushed know the difference, and it seems to play a difference in how a penalty is called in a football game.

As far as my coaching goes, I really think it's quite simple...  You teach your kids to obey the rules of the sport, and if they don't they accept the consequences, but by disobeying the rules they lose respect not just for their opponents, but for themselves and their team.  They put their team in negative situations, but obeying the rules also teaches respect of the opposing team...  That's sort of a given...  Knowing not to break the rules is, in itself, sportsmanship and teaching kids to respect their opponent.  No great mystery there, and kids understand that, and the concept of fair play display respect on the field for everybody including themselves. 

Personally I find it a little offensive for you to continue questioning my coaching Justin, and if you wanted old wounds opened up you've done a bang-up job on that I guess.  I'd put the past behind us immediately on the last matter, but you clearly haven't.  I'm sorry you felt that way and felt compelled to criticize something I take pride in and which has given me a great sense of accomplishment with the sport(s) I've enjoyed.  I know what I've accomplished with these sports though, as a kid myself, and now as an adult, so I've got no shame in being proud and counting it as part of my experience and why I feel the way I do about football (or hockey, etc.).

I'm to the point I can't even hardly comment on the Cleveland guy getting dumped thing...  It's a whole other topic but a silly one I think.  First, it was hysterical when it happened I thought, other than you didn't know what the guy was up to.  The guy broke the law, ran on the field (towards the Steelers side by the way), and got his ass handed to him.  Are there security there Justin?  I dunno, I didn't see them doing a good job as he tore around the field...  ;) 

I guess maybe the Steelers sideline should've run away from the guy doing the illegal **** then, rather than someone putting an end to it.  What if he had a knife or other weapon?  Harrison protected himself, his teammates, and dropped a potential nutcase (I like to think a sane person doesn't do that) who'd illegally gotten on the field.  I'd have done the same thing if I were in his shoes, just so the spectacle ended and so I knew he wasn't gonna do something actually bad to someone.  In this day and age I'm surprised anyone could think Harrison was in the wrong.  Yeesh.  Maybe if they were playing in Mayberry and that was Goober and everyone knew he was harmless and just a prankster...  I dunno, it's still dumb to me.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: NFL Regular Season 2008
« Reply #434 on: February 5, 2009, 10:51 PM »
As far as my coaching goes, I really think it's quite simple...  You teach your kids to obey the rules of the sport, and if they don't they accept the consequences, but by disobeying the rules they lose respect not just for their opponents, but for themselves and their team.  They put their team in negative situations, but obeying the rules also teaches respect of the opposing team...  That's sort of a given...  Knowing not to break the rules is, in itself, sportsmanship and teaching kids to respect their opponent.  No great mystery there, and kids understand that, and the concept of fair play display respect on the field for everybody including themselves. 

Dude, I don't find anything about that paragraph "simple."  Are you still sober?   ;) 

In all seriousness, I'm not interested in fighting about this anymore.  I still think Harrison is a violent thug and that the game could have been called better.  You think he got penalized appropriately and the game was called fairly.  We have a different outlook on things and I respect your right to your own opinion. 

In the spirit of moving on and poking fun at my own team, I found a funny video while I was on youtube.  Do you think This Play counts as a turnover against Favre?   ;D  Check out the block from the first yellow guy on the gray guy. 

« Last Edit: February 5, 2009, 10:53 PM by JediJman »
"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. " -Jack Handey