Author Topic: Terminator Salvation  (Read 4269 times)

Offline Matt

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2009, 05:55 PM »
Unless they really ball the whole thing up, three things have to have happened in order for John Connor to be the leader of the resistance in the future:

Skynet had to come online and end the world.
A Terminator had to go back in time after Sarah Connor
Kyle Reese had to go back in time after the Terminator.

Because without those events, John doesn't exist and he probably wouldn't be prepared for the world to end.

How did John exist before Reese went back and fathered him?  Is there some lame-ass Exhausted Universe-type thing for the Terminator series which explains that one?

Offline efranks

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2009, 08:52 PM »
Unless they really ball the whole thing up, three things have to have happened in order for John Connor to be the leader of the resistance in the future:

Skynet had to come online and end the world.
A Terminator had to go back in time after Sarah Connor
Kyle Reese had to go back in time after the Terminator.

Because without those events, John doesn't exist and he probably wouldn't be prepared for the world to end.

How did John exist before Reese went back and fathered him?  Is there some lame-ass Exhausted Universe-type thing for the Terminator series which explains that one?

I don't understand what you're asking?  I didn't say that John existed before Reese went back in time, I'm saying that in order for John to exist, Reese had to go back in time.  So those three things had to have happened in order for there to be a John Connor.  Everything else after the first Terminator movie could be scrapped if the writers of Salvation were so inclined.

Rather than reading all those websites, trying to figure out how all 3 films and the Sarah Connor Chronicles fit together, I'm saying that it could be possible that the writers of Salvation *could have* scrapped films 2 and 3 and TSCC and just wrote the post-Skynet movie based on what we know from the first Terminator film.

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Offline Matt

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2009, 12:09 AM »
I don't understand what you're asking?  I didn't say that John existed before Reese went back in time, I'm saying that in order for John to exist, Reese had to go back in time.  So those three things had to have happened in order for there to be a John Connor.  Everything else after the first Terminator movie could be scrapped if the writers of Salvation were so inclined.

Wasn't directed toward you specifically, just a general question that's confused the piss out of me for years now.  How could John send back Reese to father John?  I mean, John had to exist at some point from some other father, or how else could John be there to send Reese back originally?  Doesn't make any sense to me.

Offline Greg

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2009, 12:28 AM »
Well, perhaps the 'present day' John Connors were never really John Connor. Kinda reminds me of that one Battlestar Galactica line, but more confusing:

"All of this has happened before, and it will all happen again."

Or something like that.

Offline efranks

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2009, 12:51 AM »
I understand what you're asking, Matt.  That's one of those time travel things that never made logical sense to me.  Predestination paradox.  Reese has to go back in time to father John but how did John exist to send him back in the first place?  John always existed to send Reese back.  That's proven by the fact Reese went back.  ****** up, right?

I try not to think too hard about that type of situation.  I've only ever seen one or two movies that actually did a good job of maintaining continuity through the whole time travel thing.  Oddly enough, the Back to the Future films did a pretty good job and they were as non-sciency of a Sci-Fi film as you could get.  Star Trek, Terminator and others have done it and didn't do nearly as good of a job.

At some point I guess you have to make a choice, do you want to just go with the suspension of disbelief and enjoy the film or do you want to analyze the whole thing for an answer?  I think in the case of Salvation, I'm going to just blow off T3 and TSCC and let Salvation set the timeline and see where it ties in.

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Offline Matt

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2009, 01:09 AM »
No, I would never let the time-travel stuff get in the way of my enjoyment of these movies.  Mainly, I just like seeing robots blow a bunch of **** up, you know?

I was really just curious if this had ever been explained away by Cameron or anyone else involved with the franchise.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2009, 02:39 AM »
Sounds like a question only the crew of the NCC 1701-D U.S.S. Enterprise could solve!



They love that time travel/alternate universe/time loop/confusing ****.

That or Doc Brown could figure it out.
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Offline DSJ™

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2009, 03:08 AM »
 

Offline EdSolo

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2009, 08:25 AM »
I don't understand what you're asking?  I didn't say that John existed before Reese went back in time, I'm saying that in order for John to exist, Reese had to go back in time.  So those three things had to have happened in order for there to be a John Connor.  Everything else after the first Terminator movie could be scrapped if the writers of Salvation were so inclined.

Wasn't directed toward you specifically, just a general question that's confused the piss out of me for years now.  How could John send back Reese to father John?  I mean, John had to exist at some point from some other father, or how else could John be there to send Reese back originally?  Doesn't make any sense to me.

Reese only had to go back in time to make sure Sarah Conner survived.  A "John Conner" had to exist in the future.  The machines knew that John Conner was the leader of the resistance and that his mother was named Sarah Conner.  The resistance was about to win the war and in a despirate attempt to destroy the resistance, Skynet sent a Terminator back in time to kill Sarah Conner before John Conner was born.  Therefore, in the original timeline Sarah Conner had a kid with someone (not Reese) and named that child John.  That John Conner survives Judgement Day and ends up in a work camp, gets freed, and lead the resistance.  He then sends Reese into the past to stop the Terminator as seen in T-1.  Thus, history is changed because Reese now becomes the father of John Conner.  Since he knows that Sarah is the mother of the leader of the resistance, he tells her everything and thus influences the future.

Now we have a new timeline, where Sarah can prepare John for the future that he will face.  At some point, Sarah is commited to an asylum and John grows up in a foster home.  Dyson finds the Terminator remains and now he creates Skynet earlier.  Judgement Day occurs earlier and by the time the resistance wins, Skynet has greater technology.  They send back the T-1000 to 1994 to kill John Conner this time as seen in T-2.  John Conner has also figured out how to reprogram Terminators and sends back Arnold.  The result is that Judgement Day is now pushed further into the future, but it still happens as seen in T-3.  SCC jumps the T-3 timeline to put Sarah past hear normal death date and thus creates another alternate timeline.

Essentially, a "John Conner", son of Sarah Conner, had to exist in order for T-1 to take place.  I can be debateable as to whether the John Conner who sent back Reese is the same as the one that Sarah is pregnant with at the end of T-1.  Myself, I would say it is impossible since Reese would never have gone back in time without John sending him.

Offline BillCable

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2009, 09:01 AM »
Essentially, a "John Conner", son of Sarah Conner, had to exist in order for T-1 to take place.  I can be debateable as to whether the John Conner who sent back Reese is the same as the one that Sarah is pregnant with at the end of T-1.  Myself, I would say it is impossible since Reese would never have gone back in time without John sending him.

That's one of my big problems with things.  If it's a different John Connor... 75% genetically different... how could he be just as successful leading the resistance?  He's a whole other person.  Skynet already succeeded in killing John Connor by preventing his conception.  I guess the new John Connor was pretty effective himself, but it makes you look at things in a whole different way.

And I've just thought of a big fly in the ointment...

How could Reese have the photo of Sarah Connor that was taken with her pregnant with his child?  That photo he fell in love with?  It was the same exact photo that was taken at the end of the film.  That photo could only exist after he went back in time.  So that would be indicative of a circular time loop... Reese was always the father of John Connor.  The photo proves it.
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Offline P-Siddy

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2009, 12:36 PM »
How could Reese have the photo of Sarah Connor that was taken with her pregnant with his child?  That photo he fell in love with?  It was the same exact photo that was taken at the end of the film.  That photo could only exist after he went back in time.  So that would be indicative of a circular time loop... Reese was always the father of John Connor.  The photo proves it.

I believe that Sarah gave John that photo of her pregnant with him at some point in their lives. Then John gave it to Reese (possibly the only remaning photo he had of her? and because it depicted Sarah at the age the Terminator was sent to kill her). But, yeah, I remember he used to look at the photo to calm himself, IIRC. Will have to rewatch it soon.

Offline BillCable

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2009, 01:22 PM »
It was the same exact photo that was taken at the end of T1.  Hence, the future Reese came from contained that photo.  Hence John Connor was always his son.
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Offline knashdx

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2009, 06:41 PM »
Terminator 1 leads into Terminator 2 - That is where continuity ends.

Terminator 3 is a different time line

SCC is a different time line

Terminator Salvation we don't know.


Basically the general consensus is that Terminator 3 has nothing to do with the first movies and doesn't tie to Salvation or SCC.

Reese has been and always will be John's father. The picture was for Reese to know what Sarah looked like for his trip back because John knew before he met Reese that he would always have to seen Reese back in time or the Grandfather Paradox would happen and John would never have existed and Skynet won.

The picture is first seen in flash forwards as Reese is explaining the future to Sarah and how he came to be sent back to help her. It isn't until the end of the movie that we see when the picture is actually taken.
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Offline EdSolo

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #58 on: May 1, 2009, 08:17 AM »
Essentially, a "John Conner", son of Sarah Conner, had to exist in order for T-1 to take place.  I can be debateable as to whether the John Conner who sent back Reese is the same as the one that Sarah is pregnant with at the end of T-1.  Myself, I would say it is impossible since Reese would never have gone back in time without John sending him.

That's one of my big problems with things.  If it's a different John Connor... 75% genetically different... how could he be just as successful leading the resistance?  He's a whole other person.  Skynet already succeeded in killing John Connor by preventing his conception.  I guess the new John Connor was pretty effective himself, but it makes you look at things in a whole different way.

And I've just thought of a big fly in the ointment...

How could Reese have the photo of Sarah Connor that was taken with her pregnant with his child?  That photo he fell in love with?  It was the same exact photo that was taken at the end of the film.  That photo could only exist after he went back in time.  So that would be indicative of a circular time loop... Reese was always the father of John Connor.  The photo proves it.

It is possible that the events of T1 (the parts shown in the future) could have been the second time Reese was sent back in order to have the same picture, or could just be a coincidence that a very similar picture was taken in both timelines.  This is a chicken and the egg quandry really.  There is no reason for Reese to go back in time until the Skynet sends back Arnold.  Hence, the John Conner from T2 would never have been created until Reese goes back in time.  One has to assume that there was a John Conner that lead the resistance who sent Reese back thus changing that "present" time.  Also, I don't thank you can really calculated the genetic differences...he would be at least 50% different to as much as 100% if Sarah happened to give him the other copy of every chromosome.

As for T4, I believe the original intent was for it to be a sequel to T3 since it appears John will be with the daughter of the General from T3.  However, looking at the previews, it seems that John has no idea about the human looking Terminators.  That would lead me to believe that this could be a prequel of T-1 where this John Conner was not fathered by Reese, but I don't think the dates match up, so we'll have to wait and see.

Offline BillCable

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Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #59 on: May 1, 2009, 01:59 PM »
It wasn't a similar photo, it was the same exact photo.  And it's impossible that Sarah Connor would have been driving through the desert pregnant with John at that exact moment the photo was taken had she not already survived the attack by the T-800.  She'd be a waitress.  The only possible conclusion is that John Connor was always Reese's son.  And that's just a huge plot hole that can't be logically resolved.
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