Author Topic: Terminator Salvation  (Read 4301 times)

Offline EdSolo

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3200
    • View Profile
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #60 on: May 1, 2009, 03:07 PM »
It wasn't a similar photo, it was the same exact photo.  And it's impossible that Sarah Connor would have been driving through the desert pregnant with John at that exact moment the photo was taken had she not already survived the attack by the T-800.  She'd be a waitress.  The only possible conclusion is that John Connor was always Reese's son.  And that's just a huge plot hole that can't be logically resolved.

That theory would mean that Skynet would always develop time travel and that there was never a timeline in which Sarah Conner did not know that Judgement Day was coming.  The reason Skynet sends a Terminator back in time is because John Conner leads the resistance to victory.  By sending something back in time, there has to be an original timeline that is now altered, hence there has to be a 1984 timeline in which Kyle Reese and a Terminator did not show up.  The fact that Judgement Day changes between T1 and T2 shows this.  The remains of the terminator are found by Dyson and his company and are used to create Skynet at an earlier date.  If John and Sarah Conner were ever successful in stopping Judgement Day and Skynet, John Conner would probably cease to exist.  Essentially you have the Grandfather paradox, where if you kill your grandfather before he has fathered your dad, will you cease to exist.  If John Conner, son of Kyle Reese, stops Judgement Day, there will never be a point in the future in which he sends Kyle back to protect Sarah, hence he will not have been conceived via Kyle.

The original timeline could involve Sarah getting pregnant from a one night stand and quiting her job and going to the desert thus leading to the picture. 

Offline knashdx

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3955
  • I see Llama's
    • View Profile
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #61 on: May 1, 2009, 04:05 PM »
Essentially, a "John Conner", son of Sarah Conner, had to exist in order for T-1 to take place.  I can be debateable as to whether the John Conner who sent back Reese is the same as the one that Sarah is pregnant with at the end of T-1.  Myself, I would say it is impossible since Reese would never have gone back in time without John sending him.

That's one of my big problems with things.  If it's a different John Connor... 75% genetically different... how could he be just as successful leading the resistance?  He's a whole other person.  Skynet already succeeded in killing John Connor by preventing his conception.  I guess the new John Connor was pretty effective himself, but it makes you look at things in a whole different way.

And I've just thought of a big fly in the ointment...

How could Reese have the photo of Sarah Connor that was taken with her pregnant with his child?  That photo he fell in love with?  It was the same exact photo that was taken at the end of the film.  That photo could only exist after he went back in time.  So that would be indicative of a circular time loop... Reese was always the father of John Connor.  The photo proves it.

It is possible that the events of T1 (the parts shown in the future) could have been the second time Reese was sent back in order to have the same picture, or could just be a coincidence that a very similar picture was taken in both timelines.  This is a chicken and the egg quandry really.  There is no reason for Reese to go back in time until the Skynet sends back Arnold.  Hence, the John Conner from T2 would never have been created until Reese goes back in time.  One has to assume that there was a John Conner that lead the resistance who sent Reese back thus changing that "present" time.  Also, I don't thank you can really calculated the genetic differences...he would be at least 50% different to as much as 100% if Sarah happened to give him the other copy of every chromosome.

As for T4, I believe the original intent was for it to be a sequel to T3 since it appears John will be with the daughter of the General from T3.  However, looking at the previews, it seems that John has no idea about the human looking Terminators.  That would lead me to believe that this could be a prequel of T-1 where this John Conner was not fathered by Reese, but I don't think the dates match up, so we'll have to wait and see.

Ed
Reese only goes back in time ONCE.

I think you have the whole premise of Terminator 1 messed up. Here it is in a very short nutshell.

Some where in the future - Skynet is loosing the war, they are on the verge of defeat. They send T-800 back in time to kill Sarah Conor the mother of John Conor to keep the leader of the resistance from ever being born (not realizing the Grandfather Paradox, being that if they don't do that Skynet will never exist).

T-800 fails it's mission and is destroyed in a warehouse of Cyberdyne. Reese's one night with Sarah results in the conception of John Conor. Picture taken in desert, that picture survives on to be the picture given to Reese in the future by John so that way he knows what Sarah looks like when he is sent back to save Sarah.

1997
I have been told to go to hell; well at least I will know everyone there!

Offline EdSolo

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3200
    • View Profile
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #62 on: May 4, 2009, 08:19 AM »
Essentially, a "John Conner", son of Sarah Conner, had to exist in order for T-1 to take place.  I can be debateable as to whether the John Conner who sent back Reese is the same as the one that Sarah is pregnant with at the end of T-1.  Myself, I would say it is impossible since Reese would never have gone back in time without John sending him.

That's one of my big problems with things.  If it's a different John Connor... 75% genetically different... how could he be just as successful leading the resistance?  He's a whole other person.  Skynet already succeeded in killing John Connor by preventing his conception.  I guess the new John Connor was pretty effective himself, but it makes you look at things in a whole different way.

And I've just thought of a big fly in the ointment...

How could Reese have the photo of Sarah Connor that was taken with her pregnant with his child?  That photo he fell in love with?  It was the same exact photo that was taken at the end of the film.  That photo could only exist after he went back in time.  So that would be indicative of a circular time loop... Reese was always the father of John Connor.  The photo proves it.

It is possible that the events of T1 (the parts shown in the future) could have been the second time Reese was sent back in order to have the same picture, or could just be a coincidence that a very similar picture was taken in both timelines.  This is a chicken and the egg quandry really.  There is no reason for Reese to go back in time until the Skynet sends back Arnold.  Hence, the John Conner from T2 would never have been created until Reese goes back in time.  One has to assume that there was a John Conner that lead the resistance who sent Reese back thus changing that "present" time.  Also, I don't thank you can really calculated the genetic differences...he would be at least 50% different to as much as 100% if Sarah happened to give him the other copy of every chromosome.

As for T4, I believe the original intent was for it to be a sequel to T3 since it appears John will be with the daughter of the General from T3.  However, looking at the previews, it seems that John has no idea about the human looking Terminators.  That would lead me to believe that this could be a prequel of T-1 where this John Conner was not fathered by Reese, but I don't think the dates match up, so we'll have to wait and see.

Ed
Reese only goes back in time ONCE.

I think you have the whole premise of Terminator 1 messed up. Here it is in a very short nutshell.

Some where in the future - Skynet is loosing the war, they are on the verge of defeat. They send T-800 back in time to kill Sarah Conor the mother of John Conor to keep the leader of the resistance from ever being born (not realizing the Grandfather Paradox, being that if they don't do that Skynet will never exist).

T-800 fails it's mission and is destroyed in a warehouse of Cyberdyne. Reese's one night with Sarah results in the conception of John Conor. Picture taken in desert, that picture survives on to be the picture given to Reese in the future by John so that way he knows what Sarah looks like when he is sent back to save Sarah.

1997

Except the results of T-1 result in a speed up in the timeline because of remnants of the T-800...that is why the reprogrammed T-800 and the T-1000 come back in time in T-2.

There had to be a John Conner in the future before the events of T-1 for T-1 to even take place.  You cannot start in the past of the "present" (1984) and go to a future in which someone from the future comes back to father someone from the past.  The two points in time do not occur simeultaneously.  We could debate string theory and the whole deal, but the original 1984 timeline had to occur first before the future timeline post Judgement Day could occur.

I am not debating the events of T-1, I am debating the statement that Kyle Reese was "always" John's father.

Offline BillCable

  • Jedi General
  • *
  • Posts: 9328
  • CreatureCantina.com SUCKS!!
    • View Profile
    • CreatureCantina.com
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #63 on: May 4, 2009, 09:58 AM »
We're all aware it's not possible.  Logically John Connor had to exist before Reese went back in time.  But the only way that the photo of Sarah Connor exists for Reese to fall in love with is if he went back in time and impregnated her.  It's a plot hole.  And you can't explain it away by claiming it was a similar photo.  It is what it is... a flaw.
Bill Cable - Steeler Fan & Star Wars Collector
  http://CreatureCantina.com       
"Cable is incapable of contributing anything positive to this world" - cstoj

Offline EdSolo

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3200
    • View Profile
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #64 on: May 5, 2009, 08:06 AM »
We're all aware it's not possible.  Logically John Connor had to exist before Reese went back in time.  But the only way that the photo of Sarah Connor exists for Reese to fall in love with is if he went back in time and impregnated her.  It's a plot hole.  And you can't explain it away by claiming it was a similar photo.  It is what it is... a flaw.

Unless the Kyle Reese post Judgement Day scenes that we see are after he has gone back in time the first time...meaning that John Conner grows up hearing about Kyle via Sarah and how he came back from the future to save her.  Thus, John knows that in the future he must send Kyle back to save his mother.  That is the part that isn't clear from the movie.

Offline BillCable

  • Jedi General
  • *
  • Posts: 9328
  • CreatureCantina.com SUCKS!!
    • View Profile
    • CreatureCantina.com
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #65 on: May 5, 2009, 08:15 AM »
It's not a flash forward, though.  He's imagining it as he's talking to Sarah about the war, IIRC.
Bill Cable - Steeler Fan & Star Wars Collector
  http://CreatureCantina.com       
"Cable is incapable of contributing anything positive to this world" - cstoj

Offline EdSolo

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3200
    • View Profile
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #66 on: May 5, 2009, 03:25 PM »
It's not a flash forward, though.  He's imagining it as he's talking to Sarah about the war, IIRC.

Yes, but my point is that all we see of Kyle Reese is a Kyle Reese that is a Lieutenant to a John Conner that knows that Kyle Reese is his father and thus that John Conner tells Reese stories of his mother knowing that he (Conner) must send Kyle back in time at some point to become his father.  Thus why he has the picture and so forth.  In a way, it could become an endless loop in time.  However, from the events we see in T-1, the timeline is changed to benefit Skynet such that Judgement Day is sped up and Skynet has greater tech (the T-1000).

Offline BillCable

  • Jedi General
  • *
  • Posts: 9328
  • CreatureCantina.com SUCKS!!
    • View Profile
    • CreatureCantina.com
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #67 on: May 5, 2009, 03:26 PM »
Ah... I was confused... I thought you'd been arguing against Reese always being John Connor's father.
Bill Cable - Steeler Fan & Star Wars Collector
  http://CreatureCantina.com       
"Cable is incapable of contributing anything positive to this world" - cstoj

Offline JediJman

  • Jedi Sentinel
  • *
  • Posts: 14024
  • I'm a dude.
    • View Profile
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #68 on: May 5, 2009, 07:26 PM »
Ah... I was confused... I thought you'd been arguing against Reese always being John Connor's father.

I'll argue against that . Why couldn't John Conner have had a different father initially?  Let's say Sarah has a kid out of wedlock and that kid becomes the leader of the human resistance in the future via whatever means.  Maybe he has a strong character or its just dumb luck, whatever the cause he becomes a leader for what remains of humanity. 

So Reese travels back in time and gets Sarah pregnant instead and sets John and Sarah's lives on a completely different path.  John ends up with different DNA and obviously a different childhood being chased by time traveling robots.  However, being told from birth that he is destined to lead the resistance, he naturally makes choices that position him into the same role of a future leader.  We learn in the TV show that he now knows his father is from the future, so he saves that picture of his mom to give to his future dad. 

Play it through a second time – John with Kyle DNA gives the picture to Kyle and Kyle goes back, sleeps with Sarah and Jon is born.  This creates an endless time loop where John’s original dad no longer factors into the mix.  At any given point, we are likely not watching time unfold via the way it did the first time, but rather through downstream iterations of time as history has been changed by time travel. 

I’m not saying this was the writer’s intent, but seems plausible enough to me.
"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. " -Jack Handey

Offline BillCable

  • Jedi General
  • *
  • Posts: 9328
  • CreatureCantina.com SUCKS!!
    • View Profile
    • CreatureCantina.com
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #69 on: May 5, 2009, 08:12 PM »
You missed a dozen posts ago where we demonstrated that the only way Reese gets the photo Sarah has taken at the end of T1 is if she's impregnated by Reese first.  The photo proves Reese was always John Connor's father.
Bill Cable - Steeler Fan & Star Wars Collector
  http://CreatureCantina.com       
"Cable is incapable of contributing anything positive to this world" - cstoj

Offline JediJman

  • Jedi Sentinel
  • *
  • Posts: 14024
  • I'm a dude.
    • View Profile
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #70 on: May 5, 2009, 11:21 PM »
You missed a dozen posts ago where we demonstrated that the only way Reese gets the photo Sarah has taken at the end of T1 is if she's impregnated by Reese first.  The photo proves Reese was always John Connor's father.

No, I read that, but re-read my last paragraph and see if that makes sense.  Here's a possible "chronology of events"

- Sarah Connor has a baby with some other guy.  Don't know who, don't care.
- Skynet takes over and John Connor grows to become the leader of the human resistance for whatever reason
- Skynet decides to send a T-800 back in time, so Connor sends one of his best men, Kyle Reese to protect him
- Reese travels back in time and impregnates Sarah before she gets pregnant from someone else
- Reese dies, Sarah gets her picture taken and heads off to raise John

At this point, he does not have a picture of her and the future is radically altered.  John is not the man he was from a DNA perspective, but he is prepared from birth to become the leader of the resistance.  Knowing it is his destiny, he makes choices that lead him to the leadership role his previous self discovered more naturally.

- In the future, this different John remains a threat, so Skynet sends a T-800 back in time. 
- At this point, John knows Reese is his father, so he sends Reese back after him.  Again.
- This time, John knows its his dad and he gives Reese the picture.  Maybe this version of John is sentimental because of his different DNA or maybe its just that he now knows its his dad or maybe he just didn't have a picture of his mom in the initial timeline because that John didn't know what was coming.

This is the point at which we see Terminator 1.  From this point on, there is no reason for anything to change.  Reese has the picture, saves Sarah, dies.  John is born, becomes the leader, knows Reese is the father, gives him the picture, sends him back in time with the picture.  Its an endless loop from that point that has no reason to change unless something else in the timeline causes a change. 

I've always thought the intent was something similar to this and I find it fairly plausible (outside of machines taking over and time travel, etc.!), but that's just my opinion.  We do know from the TV show that history can be completely re-written.  Hence the T3 storyline becoming null and void when Sarah avoids her death by jumping into the future.

"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. " -Jack Handey

Offline EdSolo

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3200
    • View Profile
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #71 on: May 6, 2009, 07:58 AM »
You missed a dozen posts ago where we demonstrated that the only way Reese gets the photo Sarah has taken at the end of T1 is if she's impregnated by Reese first.  The photo proves Reese was always John Connor's father.

No, I read that, but re-read my last paragraph and see if that makes sense.  Here's a possible "chronology of events"

- Sarah Connor has a baby with some other guy.  Don't know who, don't care.
- Skynet takes over and John Connor grows to become the leader of the human resistance for whatever reason
- Skynet decides to send a T-800 back in time, so Connor sends one of his best men, Kyle Reese to protect him
- Reese travels back in time and impregnates Sarah before she gets pregnant from someone else
- Reese dies, Sarah gets her picture taken and heads off to raise John

At this point, he does not have a picture of her and the future is radically altered.  John is not the man he was from a DNA perspective, but he is prepared from birth to become the leader of the resistance.  Knowing it is his destiny, he makes choices that lead him to the leadership role his previous self discovered more naturally.

- In the future, this different John remains a threat, so Skynet sends a T-800 back in time. 
- At this point, John knows Reese is his father, so he sends Reese back after him.  Again.
- This time, John knows its his dad and he gives Reese the picture.  Maybe this version of John is sentimental because of his different DNA or maybe its just that he now knows its his dad or maybe he just didn't have a picture of his mom in the initial timeline because that John didn't know what was coming.

This is the point at which we see Terminator 1.  From this point on, there is no reason for anything to change.  Reese has the picture, saves Sarah, dies.  John is born, becomes the leader, knows Reese is the father, gives him the picture, sends him back in time with the picture.  Its an endless loop from that point that has no reason to change unless something else in the timeline causes a change. 

I've always thought the intent was something similar to this and I find it fairly plausible (outside of machines taking over and time travel, etc.!), but that's just my opinion.  We do know from the TV show that history can be completely re-written.  Hence the T3 storyline becoming null and void when Sarah avoids her death by jumping into the future.



This is exactly what I have been arguing...Sarah could have gotten pregnant from a one night stand and for whatever reason decides to go off to the desert and gets her picture taken.  John could have been a bad kid who got sent off to military school.  There had to be some sort of original timeline that we do not see on screen in which there is a John Conner who grows up to lead the resistance.

Offline efranks

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 2874
  • Eric Franks
    • View Profile
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #72 on: May 6, 2009, 12:43 PM »
Yeah.  I don't buy all that.  I'm more from the Kyle Reese always beeing John Connor's father school of thought.

   E...
"I sell the drugs that keep you people from seeing dragons at night." - Gus "Psych"

Offline jedipurge

  • Jedi Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 1217
  • follow me on Instagram: VadersEmpire78
    • View Profile
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #73 on: May 6, 2009, 01:52 PM »
so maybe the J Connor we see in T2 grown up with scar running his cheek using the binoculars watching the battle is the OG Connor b4 Kyle is sent back to become his dad, and now in T:Salv C.Bale is the result of Kyle going back and being his father.  :P

It's a movie and there's going to be flubs, especially when there is time travel involved. 
Harmless is the most dangerous of perceptions, you never expect it to strike.-Purge

Offline BillCable

  • Jedi General
  • *
  • Posts: 9328
  • CreatureCantina.com SUCKS!!
    • View Profile
    • CreatureCantina.com
Re: Terminator Salvation
« Reply #74 on: May 6, 2009, 01:55 PM »
So the theory is that T1 depicts Reese's SECOND trip back through time, the first of the infinite loop generated by his first trip...

Interesting...

I'll have to ponder that a bit and see if I can poke any holes in it.

I may have one... the first time through Reese wouldn't have been in love with Sarah Connor already from all those years of looking at her photo... so how does he end up knocking her up?  I guess you could argue she was just that bangable...  But if he didn't need a photo the first time through, why would John Connor risk altering history by making him an obsessed stalker the second time through?

Hell, how does he recognize her at all without the photo?  I forget if that was a plot point... him knowing what she looked like.  The Terminators sure didn't.
Bill Cable - Steeler Fan & Star Wars Collector
  http://CreatureCantina.com       
"Cable is incapable of contributing anything positive to this world" - cstoj