Author Topic: A Game of Thrones (HBO)  (Read 17439 times)

Offline Jesse James

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #375 on: April 14, 2014, 11:43 PM »
I'm in the "Joffrey was a POS, purely evil character" camp...

He's not like Jamie who has some redeeming qualities...  Most seem more complex, but for me, Joffrey = Caligula, from the in-breeding to the sadistic nature, to the tantrums and quick temper.

There are worse though...  That's kind of what always comes up in TWD too, that there is always someone worse.

But watching Joffrey croak was pretty damn fun, I have to admit.

Long list of suspects too...  Tyrion's about the only one I don't think would've done it, ironically.

This certainly changes things...  I've not read the books so I don't know exactly who the Lannisters would attempt to replace Joffrey with then...  I know all the people who could make claims, and I'm probably forgetting a few of them even, but who would the Lannisters try to put there?  The marriage isn't really official, so it's a dilemma for them.  Cersie would probably be the most likely to take the throne for now?

It's nice to hear it stated that basically the Starks aren't out of things, by the way.  That there is the thought people would rally to even a young Stark being alive if they knew.  It's felt like, to someone who hasn't read the books anyway, that they're pretty much on the fringe of the game at this point.
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Offline EdSolo

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #376 on: April 15, 2014, 07:01 AM »
Joffrey has a younger brother and sister.  The sister was mentioned in the episode and I assume the younger brother was the kid that was seen in several scenes standing with Cersie.  In the books he is about seven or eight (and Joffrey was about thirteen), so it looks like his brother (Tommen, I think his name is) is a little older than that on the show.  If we ignore the reality of the parentage of Cersie's children, then Tommen is the "rightful" heir to Joffrey since Joffrey did not have any offspring.

Offline P-Siddy

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #377 on: April 15, 2014, 10:04 AM »
If we ignore the reality of the parentage of Cersie's children, then Tommen is the "rightful" heir to Joffrey since Joffrey did not have any offspring.

Depends... on a 'certain point of view'  ;)

Offline Rob

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #378 on: April 15, 2014, 10:13 AM »
Nick (sort-of) wins!

Quote
I also tried to provide a certain moment of pathos with the death. I mean, Joffrey, as monstrous as he is — and certainly he’s just as monstrous in the books as he is in the TV show, and Jack has brought some incredible acting chops to the role that somehow makes him even more loathsome than he is on the page — but Joffrey in the books is still a 13-year-old kid. And there’s kind of a moment there where he knows that he’s dying and he can’t get a breath and he’s kind of looking at Tyrion and at his mother and at the other people in the hall with just terror and appeal in his eyes—you know, “Help me mommy, I’m dying.” And in that moment, I think even Tyrion sees a 13-year-old boy dying before him. So I didn’t want it to be entirely, “Hey-ho, the witch is dead.” I wanted the impact of the death to still strike home on to perhaps more complex feelings on the part of the audience, not necessarily just cheering.

Not that the kid's not bad, but seems Marin did want you to feel a hint of sympathy, because monster or not he's still a kid.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 10:13 AM by Rob »

Offline Nicklab

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #379 on: April 15, 2014, 11:21 AM »
If we ignore the reality of the parentage of Cersie's children, then Tommen is the "rightful" heir to Joffrey since Joffrey did not have any offspring.

Depends... on a 'certain point of view'  ;)


That point of view being that the Lannisters are the power behind the Iron Throne.
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Offline P-Siddy

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #380 on: April 15, 2014, 12:05 PM »
True... I was thinking along the lines of the Martells, who believe Myrcella is the rightful heir.

Offline EdSolo

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #381 on: April 15, 2014, 01:20 PM »
True... I was thinking along the lines of the Martells, who believe Myrcella is the rightful heir.

If you get down to brass tacks, Daenerays is truly the rightful heir to the throne from what we know to be the truth at this point.  As far as the kingdom knows, Tommen is the rightful heir since males supercede any older female siblings.  For those who believed John Arryn and Ned Stark, then Stannis is the rightful heir since he did not have an legitimate children, and Cersie did not bear him any children.  However, King Robert usurped the throne from the Targeryans, who were not completely wiped out, so any living Targeryan would be the heir, minus any who had given up their rights to the throne.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #382 on: April 15, 2014, 05:47 PM »
She's the heir in the sense that her father (right?) was the mad king, but that was a popular uprising was it not?  So isn't there some equal POV that Robert's bastard is the rightful heir here?

I'd say he and Stannis hold more ground than Khalisi in that regard...  Of course, I lean to what you say though, Ed.  I prefer Khalisi at this point because she's not insane, seems like a good leader, etc.  But in that world her family was kicked out by everyone, more or less.

I love this show. :)

In the breakdown of the episode they really did want people to feel something for Joffrey, but for me it was purely good riddance...  He was a monster, and horrific.  His mother's one of the few equally horrible people, to me.  Kid or no...  I felt no sympathy.

I feel sympathy for the actor...  Poor kid gets ragged on by people he meets, and that sucks.  I sometimes just don't get fandom.
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Offline Nicklab

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #383 on: April 15, 2014, 09:45 PM »
Danaerys is indeed the last surviving child of the Mad King.  But that same Mad King was killed by Jaime Lannister during Robert Baratheon's Rebellion.  Interesting thing there is that Robert actually had some Targaryen blood in his family line, and that's part of why his claim to the Iron Throne was recognized following the rebellion.  The fact that he was also fighting for the return of his bride-to-be, Lyanna Stark, Ned's sister, from Prince Rhaegar Targaryen was at the heart of the rebellion.  Robert killed Raehgar, and Ned managed to save a dying Lyanna.  The rest of the surviving Targaryens were driven into exile.  Viserys and Danaerys wound up in Pentos with Illyrio.  But nobody really knows what happened to their mother.

Clearly, the children that are being passed off as Robert's children: the deceased Joffrey, Prince Tommen and Princess Myrcella are actually all the product of incest between Cersei and Jaime Lannister.  But as long as the Lannisters are the power and money behind the Iron Throne, the prospect of removing these Lannisters posing as Baratheons from the throne is going to be problematic.

The person with the most legitimate claim to the Iron Throne, at least according to Westerosi customs, is Stannis Baratheon.  But Stannis had been shunned by Robert following the rebellion, and given the island of Dragonstone as more of a place of exile than anything else.  Stannis is aware of some of Robert's bastard children.  And his brother Renly was a more appealing option.  But well, we saw what happened to Renly in season 2.

I think a lot of people are wondering what's going to happen if/when Danaerys returns to Westeros.  What then?  The series seems to be indicating that Danaerys is building towards that, as are the books.  I think the conflict that will draw in Danaerys is for the survival of Westeros itself.  The Iron Throne seems to be a secondary issue.
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Offline EdSolo

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #384 on: April 16, 2014, 07:11 AM »
She's the heir in the sense that her father (right?) was the mad king, but that was a popular uprising was it not?  So isn't there some equal POV that Robert's bastard is the rightful heir here?

I'd say he and Stannis hold more ground than Khalisi in that regard...  Of course, I lean to what you say though, Ed.  I prefer Khalisi at this point because she's not insane, seems like a good leader, etc.  But in that world her family was kicked out by everyone, more or less.

I love this show. :)

In the breakdown of the episode they really did want people to feel something for Joffrey, but for me it was purely good riddance...  He was a monster, and horrific.  His mother's one of the few equally horrible people, to me.  Kid or no...  I felt no sympathy.

I feel sympathy for the actor...  Poor kid gets ragged on by people he meets, and that sucks.  I sometimes just don't get fandom.

Nick sums up everything above this post nicely.  With the mad king, Jamie breaks his oath and kills the king which allows Robert to usurp the throne.  If Robert doesn't manage to kill Raehgar I'm not sure if the kingdom would have gone along with the change in leadership.  I think it was more of a situation of to the victor goes the spoils coupled with a particular hatred for the mad king because of his deeds.  If it was just a choice of Raehgar versus Robert, I'm not sure if tradition would be throne aside to anoint Robert.

As for any of Robert's bastards, they don't hold any claims in Westeros.  The are given names like Snow, Sand, etc. because they are not considered to be part of the family.  This is one of the factors that lead Jon Snow to join the watch since he could never be Ned's heir.  The importance of Robert's bastards was the genetics.  All of his bastards had dark hair, regardless of the hair color of the mother while all his "legitimate" children had blonde hair.  That is what lead Jon Arryn to figure out that Jamie was the real father.

As for who should truly be the king or queen, it all boils down to the opinion on Robert's reign.  If he had managed to wipe out all the Targaryens (which we know at the beginning of the series, there were at least two alive) then he could have made a legitimate claim to take over the Iron Throne, much the same way the Targaryens of old united all the kingdoms under one king.  This would leave Stannis as the legitimate heir since Robert had no legitimate children.  Renly was also a usurper since Stannis would have to die first for Renly to have had a true claim.  However, Robert left legitimate heirs alive to the traditional roles of succession.  Since Danaerys is the last Targaryen (that we know of for sure at this point), she really has the strongest claim to the throne, but does not quite have the power to take it.

In essence it comes down to power, which the Lannisters have at this point by money and winning the war.  They currently control the throne, but really they don't have any legitimate claim to it.

Offline Nicklab

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #385 on: April 16, 2014, 08:57 AM »
Bastards definitely hold different places in the different houses.  The custom seems to be that no bastard is due an inheritance even if they're from a noble house.  There can be exceptions though, if the noble Lord or even the King decides to recognize a bastard and can give them their family name.

The Lannisters largely shun any bastards.  To the point where you don't really hear much about any bastards from the Westerlands.  I think in the West they're known by the bastard name Hill.  In the North things seem to be more open.  Jon Snow was a very integral part of the Stark family until he left to join the Night's Watch.  He was really only shunned by Catelyn Stark.  And Ramsey Snow seems to be very much trusted by Roose Bolton as well, but he may not be held in such high esteem.

Robert's bastards were numerous because he didn't take his marriage seriously.  The episode in the second season where Cersei and Joffrey had many of Robert's illegitimate children killed was fairly true to the books.  Gendry escaped and I think he's going to have a bigger part to play down the line.  However I don't know if he would be considered a Storm since he's Robert's bastard, or perhaps a Waters since he lived in the Crownlands near Kings Landing.  The show has made it clear to a point that he didn't know of his status.  At least until season 3 when he was taken by Melisandre to Dragonstone.
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Offline P-Siddy

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #386 on: April 16, 2014, 10:13 AM »
Since Danaerys is the last Targaryen (that we know of for sure at this point), she really has the strongest claim to the throne, but does not quite have the power to take it.

And that is why Robert had assassins sent out to kill her and her unborn heir.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #387 on: April 16, 2014, 07:07 PM »
I'd not realized that kid sitting next to Tyrion was another nephew...  Probably just his lack of dialogue but the kid seemed almost normal.
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Offline P-Siddy

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #388 on: April 16, 2014, 07:13 PM »
Yeah, that was Tommen, but it was a new actor to play him.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: A Game of Thrones (HBO)
« Reply #389 on: April 16, 2014, 07:28 PM »
I vaguely remembered the sister getting shipped off when she got brought up, but totally forgot he had a brother.  It'd been a while since either came up I guess.
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