Author Topic: Tantive IV crew  (Read 2271 times)

Offline Jeff

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2012, 10:00 PM »
It just seems most logical to me that the crew's taken, interrogated, and killed with a "cover-up" excuse so it looks like an accident...  Plus killed so they don't ever possibly expose what happened.  But also, interrogated because they may reveal other information too, that the Empire wants, beyond the DS's plans.  They're still looking for the base and all. 

I agree.  I imagine it went the way Antilles did.  Tell me what you know.  No answer about the stolen plans or secret rebel organization?  Force choke and dead.  No dicking around.  Vader does not exactly seem like the prisoner taking guy anyway...
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2012, 10:33 PM »
Vader does not exactly seem like the prisoner taking guy anyway...

Really?  Princess Leia?  Han/Leia/Chewie?  Luke?  He's personally taken a prisoner in every movie of the OTC. 

Outside of battle, I think Antilles is the only good guy he's killed in cold blood (on screen anyway).

Star Wars Prison Planets: Despayre, Stars' End, Kessel to name a few.  Despayre was used to construct the first death star, and they lost that work force, despite immense labor needed for the second death star.  Tycho, Corran, and Wedge all escaped from Imperial prisons at some point. 
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Offline P-Siddy

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2012, 10:47 PM »
Vader does not exactly seem like the prisoner taking guy anyway...

Really?  Princess Leia?  Han/Leia/Chewie?  Luke?  He's personally taken a prisoner in every movie of the OTC. 

They were part of Vader's plan to lure Luke to the dark side.

Offline Jeff

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2012, 11:24 PM »
Vader does not exactly seem like the prisoner taking guy anyway...

Really?  Princess Leia?  Han/Leia/Chewie?  Luke?  He's personally taken a prisoner in every movie of the OTC. 

::) 

Yes, I suppose he did.  Perhaps I should have said:

Vader does not exactly seem like the prisoner taking guy anyway... unless they are main characters vital to the overall story.  :P

Anyway, I always thought Vader had them all killed.  I went back tonight and grabbed the novelization...

Quote
As the officer and troops departed, Vader turned his gaze back to the Commander.  "Vaporize this fighter - we don't want to leave anything."

I guess I always just assumed that meant the crew too... ;)
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2012, 11:44 PM »
They were part of Vader's plan to lure Luke to the dark side.

Ha!  Thanks for the tip, Steve.  Even going back to Empire, Vader could have killed off Chewie to really get Luke's goat, right?  Or he could have offed Lando once he had the others captured, right?  It even takes an order from Tarkin to schedule Leia's death - that's not Vader's suggestion.  I'm not saying he's a nice guy or above killing people when it suits him, but he doesn't seem like a guy that just walks around killing guys because he can.  Yeah, I get that they wanted things kept quiet, but it seems like shipping these guys off to some inescapable prison  planet/work camp would have the same desired effect.

In one of the novels (Death Star I think), some of the prisoners encountered are people the Empire falsely listed as having died.  Based on that, I took it as a relatively common practice that the Empire rounded up prisoners and sent them off to work camps where they were never heard from again.  I prefer to think those guys are still slaving away somewhere remote working on the third Death Star.   ;)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 11:47 PM by JediJman »
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2012, 11:49 PM »
I guess I don't look at the SW galaxy having prisons as really pertaining at all to why the Tantive IV crew is not taken prisoner...

I think the Empire has many prison "camps" or planets.  I envision them having camps strictly for forced labor, like Kessel...  I envision them having "re-education" camps...  I envision them having even regular POW camps, though forced labor and other stuff could apply to all those too.  And even special maximum secuirty camps on desolate worlds that only house a handful of prisoners because of their importance.  Maybe earlier on in the Empire there are camps specialized for Jedi even, since it's proven that Jedi can be captured and kept prisoner like anyone else, it just takes a little extra care and technology.

I just think the Tantive IV crew is killed because they get asked questions, they reveal nothing (or maybe they reveal some stuff, whatever), and since this is a bit of a diplomatic faux pas, as well as a severe breach of sensitive materials, it's best wiped up without any chance of it going public.

If anything I think it was made pretty clear that Leia herself, the most important person aboard the ship, was going to be the last bit of mopping up if she didn't reveal anything they wanted.

I'm totally cool with the SW notion of prisons though.  They're really kind of a cool concept...  There's a great prison level in Bounty Hunter that is maybe one of the more fun parts of the game.  Total blast causing a massive riot just to cover your own tracks. :)

On the idea of Vader randomly offing people, I agree, but disagree...  I think he's totally capable of it.  I think Vader's ordered by Tarkin to kill Leia because that's Tarkin's call ultimately, not his.  Tarkin's not involved in the overtaking of the Tantive IV though, as far as we know.  As far as we know, he's far away on the Death Star, and Vader's in command of the mission to take the Tantive IV and deal with it.

Not saying he kills everyone...  I can imagine he doesn't kill many people.  I can also imagine he slaughters quite a few, with neither happiness nor sadness.  He just does what has to be done.

Like say it was Vader's ship capturing a Rebel ship escaping Hoth...  I can see them doing a quick interrogation, determining who is and isn't important aboard the ship (to move the important ones on for further interrogation), and the rest who gave up (assuming those who resisted to the last are all dead) are shipped off to a penal camp of one type or another...  and at the same time I could see Vader slaughtering the ship depending on how badly it pissed him off.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2012, 12:15 AM »
I guess we all have our own takes on Vader.  I totally agree that he's capable of killing the crew (or anyone) and he could have very well done so. 

That said, I've kind of seen him in a new light since the prequels.  If you watch the OTC closely, he has no problem killing his own men left and right.  Say the wrong thing?  Come out of Hyperspace early?  Let the Falcon escape?  It's force choke and so long to you.  I think that's probably equal parts motivation for the survivors to work their butts off and anger at the empire that he's become a part of.  Anakin did everything he could to save his men during the clone wars, but Vader seems to relish killing them off for the simplest of reasons. 

I Brought it up earlier, but why not kill some of the heroes?  There's no need to keep Lando around, especially after he yells at Vader about taking the prisoners with him.  Why not just force choke and kill him?  Why keep Chewie around once he's frozen Han and still has Leia as bait if needed?  Chewie's clearly a threat on the Carbonite platform...another opportunity for a force choke that Vader passes on.  Why?  I get they're core characters that Lucas wanted to keep around, but was there something more to it?

Personally, I think Vader/Anakin is still a good guy deep down.  We see his redemption at the end of Jedi, but I never carded much for the "Good guy turns complete evil then turns back to good" notion of things.  I think he's a good guy who has done terrible things that he feels are justified for one reason or another.  He's got to play the part of a bad guy because that's his lot, but some part of him still wants to be good.  It's that potentially self concious good side that prevents him from offing the good guys.

If you can see that angle of things and mix it in with Anakin's respect for front line troops, you'll see why I think he didn't kill off the rest of the crew.  Kill the captain, sure?  Maybe out of anger or another opportunity to strike fear in your troops?  Sure.  But there's really no reason to kill the rest of the crew and for me it just makes more sense that he'd send them off to prison instead.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2012, 01:41 PM »
But there IS a reason. :)

They know of the plans, and the Death Star...  They know that the Empire has done something clearly "against the rules" that requires a cover-up of some sort to keep it from going public.

Why keep them around and risk that?  That's a very good reason I think, to a thorough guy like Vader looking to please his master.

I see what you're saying, and I agree on Chewbacca (though some have speculated he keeps Chewie around because he has 3PO on his back and he has some level of sentimentality for his old droid, and doesn't want Fett accidentally killing him).  I think you can chalk that up to the main character angle and all that too though.  At the same time I don't think he kills everyone either.  I just DO think he had the entire Tantive IV crew wiped out because they had seen too much.

I see what you're saying about Vader and the concepts of redemption and all though, and to a degree I agree with that.
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Offline Qui-Gon Jim

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2012, 02:58 PM »
Perhaps Vader is hoping Luke doesn't have the guidance to know that Vader is the one causing his friends pain.  Remember, he is using them to lure Luke in, and of course he'd keep them alive until Luke is in his clutches.  What if he hears Luke is coming in, he kills the others rebels, and Luke decides to turn around and leave?  Vader would have wasted a resource that was proven to have drawn Luke in.  Vader doesn't know that Yoda is alive and is training Luke to be a Jedi.  Maybe he assumes that Luke will just respond to his feelings.  You don't pull away the bait until the fish is snared.

Also, once Vader has his moment with Luke on the gantry, he does not kill a single person after.  He doesn't murder Piett after the Falcon escapes, he doesn't do anything to Jerjerrod, and they even cut out a scene where he attacks one of Palpatine's security officers.  I think his confrontation with Luke changed him.

Offline JediJman

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2012, 11:34 PM »
They know of the plans, and the Death Star...  They know that the Empire has done something clearly "against the rules" that requires a cover-up of some sort to keep it from going public.

I'd argue that people already know that...that's why there is a rebellion.  It's not like the Empire fears anyone going public with the information.  They use the Death Star shortly after this to very publicly show everyone how powerful they are.  Besides, it's not like anyone escapes their prisons, so that would just as effectively silence anyone.

Perhaps Vader is hoping Luke doesn't have the guidance to know that Vader is the one causing his friends pain.  Remember, he is using them to lure Luke in, and of course he'd keep them alive until Luke is in his clutches.  What if he hears Luke is coming in, he kills the others rebels, and Luke decides to turn around and leave? 

I agree, but why not get rid of Chewie?  You have Han and Leia as bait, there's no need to keep the wookie around. He's crazy strong and has the best chance of doing damage/helping the others escape given his strength.  Plus the added pain and anguish would further drive Luke to pursue his surviving friends.  I don't subscribe to the Threepio theory - that's interesting, but if C-3PO can survive getting blown to pieces then he could easily survive Chewie getting blasted and falling down. 

I still think Vader's good side is getting the better of him in the last few movies.

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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2012, 12:25 AM »
I'd argue that people already know that...that's why there is a rebellion.  It's not like the Empire fears anyone going public with the information.  They use the Death Star shortly after this to very publicly show everyone how powerful they are.  Besides, it's not like anyone escapes their prisons, so that would just as effectively silence anyone.

What makes you think nobody escapes their prisons?  I'd think people can/do as much as any similar situation in fiction or fact.  Some would be more difficult than others.  Some might be impossible.  Madine escapes one of their supposedly maximum security prisons with the help of Kyle Katarn.  But why risk it, if it's a concern at all?  Nothing is perfect...  Vader would know this best maybe considering his history of working with fairly inept people.  :)  I'd think he'd be thorough to the point of being neurotic.

There seemed to be distinct fear about the information going public though, right in the film...  The Death Star hadn't yet "gone live".  There's several mentions to the Emperor needing to control things through the beaucracy, and the Imperial Senate not standing for this seemingly illegal move by Vader...  I saw quite a bit of fear that this could wind up public knowledge. 

Tarkin knows when the DS is ready to roll they feel comfortable and Palps is going to dissolve the Senate and anyone who objects just gets obliterated.  Simple.  But it wasn't a done deal at that point, and it seemed like a pretty big deal to get the plans to the ultimate weapon back then, since it's a major key to ending the need for the Senate.  Vader in particular seemed interested in that, even if others were overly proud of their technological terror.

If anything, I look at Vader's behavior in ANH as not completely sold on the Death Star, and knowing that he should get those plans back quickly, and as quietly as he can, so the master plan he and Palps have doesn't have any speedbumps.  If you can eliminate anything remotely to do with the missing plans, I think it just is easy logic to say you eliminate them.

But I still agree, there's plenty of prisons of varying degrees of "security" and purpose, and plenty of Rebels are held prisoner.  I think the Tantive IV crew's fate is sealed and they're dead, simply so all ties to this and the DS's plans are eliminated.  Vader's an accomplice in the destruction of an entire planet of innocent people.  The Tantive IV crew is probably low on his apologies list.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2012, 01:01 AM »
I wouldn't really call Vader an accomplice unless you're going to throw everyone in the Empire under that bus.  It was Tarkin's station and Tarkin's call with no real involvement from Vader.  In fact, he shows his disdain for the station when they're in the briefing room.

The real question I guess is how much time passes between the capture of the Tantiv IV and the destruction of Alderaan?  If there was a substantial amount of time, then I could maybe see some interest in still protecting the secret.  But it seems like this all happens in a pretty short window of time.  I just don't see any real motive for silencing the Tantiv IV crew.  Like I said before, they clearly don't have the plans or have them memorized, so the only "threat" these guys really have is letting others know about the Death Star.  If the Empire plans to use it in a few days or weeks, who cares about the news getting out?  In fact, that probably works in their favor to get people talking about it and afraid of it. 

I think Vader and company wanted the plans to prevent someone from finding a weakness in the station, but I don't see anything that shows they are concerned about keeping the DS a secret now that it's operational.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2012, 08:42 PM »
He's aboard the Death Star, on the command bridge, when the order's given, even restraining Leia and forcing her to watch...  I consider that an accomplice in the action.  If it were a "war crimes" trial, I'd imagine Vader would be as responsible as every other officer aboard the Death Star, at the very least.  Probably far more so, and maybe only slightly less than Tarkin who gave the actual order.

I don't really think Vader shows disdain for the station either...  That's dislike.  He just says they shouldn't be so proud of it because it's not the ultimate power in the universe...  I don't see anything in him that says it's a bad thing, he just knows it's not perfect, or all powerful, as I think he probably feels the Force probably is the only "ultimate power in the universe".

The time that passes during ANH is pretty debatable...  Vader has to travel from Tatooine to wherever the Death Star is, and it has to travel to wherever Alderaan is, and then it has to travel to wherever Yavin is...  And it seemingly travels slower than smaller vessels with hyperdrives...

I think it's tough to nail down, one way or another, what time elapses in any of the films.  At least as far as lending credence to an argument.  The film itself edits long ammounts of time out for obvious reasons, but I think it's fair to say time is moving slower than the films show.  To me it's a non-issue though ultimately.

It also doesn't cover what kind of time there was from the point where the DS plans are stolen, to when they're sent to the Tantive IV...  From there the Tantive IV makes several hyper jumps according to EU sources, so there's more possible analyzing time.

But ultimately the argument I'd make is that there is nothing to clearly indicate what the Rebels do, or don't know, that you took prisoner.  And, again, airing on the side of caution, you're further ahead to just kill and be done with it in that situation.  Time plays a factor in this, but it's very hard to nail down if it's a short ammount of time, a long ammount of time, or what any of the Rebels may know about it.  You can torture them to get the information, but even then that's not a guarantee that you can get anything out of them.

WE know Leia doesn't know, and if she doesn't then logically none of the rest do, but Vader and co. don't know that, and so they're working off assumptions.  With the time elapsed being completely arguable, and with any individual crew member or droid's own personal abilities at interpreting the schematics and remembering anything they find being completely impossible to tell, then I really feel it makes total sense you just kill the crew to save yourself hastle.

Not to mention I think many (most?) people like to consider the main baddie in Star Wars to be an actual baddie and not a softy who'd prefer taking prisoners. :)

But I still get where you're coming from on that, and I agree that it doesn't explain Chewbacca surviving entirely.  I think the 3PO argument is maybe a sound one, but it's kind of weak too, at the same time.

Since the established backstory on the Tantive IV seems to say the ship and crew are offed, I'm sticking with that.  It also fits my perception of Vader as a character though, and just makes sense to me more than them keeping the crew prisoner for no real necessary reason, and with what I perceive as some risk no matter how minimal.

To me, Vader is "twisted and evil"...  his "good", to me, is very feint, like Obi-Wan kind of tells Luke on Dagobah.  Luke knows it's there, as does Kenobi, but Kenobi doesn't have much hope it can be fixed, and doesn't seem to want Luke to risk that.  He just wants things to be set right, as Yoda does, and only LUke's love of his father and Vader's love of his son is ultimately what sets everything right...  kind of ironically.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2012, 11:08 PM »
I think a lot of this just comes down to your own subjective interpretation.

I don't really think Vader shows disdain for the station either...  That's dislike.  He just says they shouldn't be so proud of it because it's not the ultimate power in the universe...  I don't see anything in him that says it's a bad thing, he just knows it's not perfect, or all powerful, as I think he probably feels the Force probably is the only "ultimate power in the universe".

Maybe.  I don't recall him ever saying anything positive about the sation though, so that's all just how you're interpreting the gaps in information.  I took it that he doesn't care much for sitting back in a moon-sized battle station blowing up planets.  Anakin/Vader is a man of action - guys like that don't want to sit back in a distant control room, they want to use a more hand's on approach.  That's why Vader hops in his own TIE fighter at Yavin, why he personally lands on Hoth, etc.  He's clearly following the Emperor's lead on the DS and even Tarkin's, so he has to do his job on and off the station to protect the Empire's asset.  Doesn't mean he likes it in the least.

The time that passes during ANH is pretty debatable... To me it's a non-issue though ultimately.

I brought up the timing because a lengthy amount of time between scenes is the only rationale I can buy into on why they would kill the crew.  Give me a scenario where locking them up in a prison drives a different outcome for the Empire.  The station and its defenses are fully operational, the Rebels don't know of a weakness without a full schematic of the plans, there's little chance of them escaping in time to tell anyone about it, and even if they do manage that there's nothing anyone can do about it without a significant amount of time to plan some kind of sabotage.  The Empire wants to demonstrate the power of the station very publicly by the end of the movie...in the very unrealistic possibility that some of these guys escape custody and do so in time to let someone know what is happening, what could they possibly due about it? 

Vader has to travel from Tatooine to wherever the Death Star is, and it has to travel to wherever Alderaan is, and then it has to travel to wherever Yavin is...  And it seemingly travels slower than smaller vessels with hyperdrives...

Yet another reason to not worry about the crew.  No one would know where the Death Star is anyway since it's on the move up until the battle of Yavin.

But ultimately the argument I'd make is that there is nothing to clearly indicate what the Rebels do, or don't know, that you took prisoner.  And, again, airing on the side of caution, you're further ahead to just kill and be done with it in that situation.  ...Since the established backstory on the Tantive IV seems to say the ship and crew are offed, I'm sticking with that.  It also fits my perception of Vader as a character though, and just makes sense to me more than them keeping the crew prisoner for no real necessary reason, and with what I perceive as some risk no matter how minimal.

I haven't seen anything about an established backstory stating the crew was killed.  Isn't that why the question was posed here?  You can't honestly state that like it's an established fact without some kind of source.  I call shenanigans!   ;)   

It really comes down to three issues for me:

#1 - There shouldn't be any difference between locking them up in a secure location and killing them.  The EU stories on Imperial prisons show the Empire is very effective at faking deaths and hiding prisoners away for a long, long time.

#2 - There's no real risk if anyone gets the information anyway.  What are they going to do with it?

#3 - I believe the prisoners are far more useful alive than dead.  Per the above, there's no reason to kill them.  Alive, they may have rebel secrets to reveal, like the location of the rebel base if Leia doesn't come through.  Maybe they can implicate rebel spies or be brainwashed into sleeper agents as we've seen in some of the other EU stories.  At the very least they are skilled, intelligent people that could be useful slaves elsewhere.  People seem to forget that the Imperial War Machine would require a boatload of materials, supplies, and construction to keep it running.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Tantive IV crew
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2012, 11:53 PM »
I'll cite Wookieepedia as my source, which if you look up Tantive IV it states it in it and all the citations are there.  I believe though, specifically, it's mentioned in either the novelization or radio drama, and I'm quite sure elsewhere.  I know a comic story arc revolved around Leia and her ship's crew even.

Actually after a quick look in just the EGVV, they state right in it that only Leia survives the ship and crew's capture, so there you go for a non-Wookieepedia one, haha.  I'm pretty sure though their deaths were established as far back as the West End Games days, but those books aren't accessible for me to check.  :-\  It's on Wookieepedia though, which for a fictional universe is good enough for me.  ;D

I agree, it's quite subjective...

Timelines are subjective because the film is edited to speed things up, or at least one could easily assume that.

How you view Vader is subjective...  I think a lot of your points are interesting about him softening up, but I just don't view him that way.  His behavior at the end of ROTS, I feel, establishes his behavior largely till at least his encounter with Luke at Bespin.

I agree he's not one to sit back on the Death Star, but he was also pretty boastful standing on its bridge, since his plan led them to the Rebel base.  He was pleased with what he'd just done to end Kenobi's life, and he was pleased that he could be a part of what he saw as the end of the Rebellion.  I think him just standing there soaking it in shows he's pretty happy with the Death Star too.  I see him as a man of action too.  It's even mentioned that's why he likes Veers, that he leads the men into Echo Base himself...  He's not a *****, for sure.

Still though, doesn't mean he dislikes the Death Star either...  It's different interpretations of the character.

About the timing issue, a lengthy ammount of time between scenes isn't practical for the film.  That's obvious.  It's another fairly subjective matter.  The only thing I think you can use as a gauge is the constant jumping about.  Alderaan is blown up...  I'm not a physics major, but it seemed spread out.  Would it have been that spread about and things, without there having been a bit of time elapsed?  Would it all already be cooled down and such?  I don't know, of course, but it's another thing to consider I think, regarding time elapsed.  Just as all the hyper jumping about for the Death Star and Vader are issues to consider.  But there's nothing really solidifies it one way or the other.

I like to think there's a good deal of time there though, but that's just me.

To your three issues, I give you three counters that work for me explaining it the other direction...

#1 The Imperial prisons in SW lore are also something people escape from, and it's just natural that people will try.  Vader's not a half-asser IMO, and so I see him being thorough and having no issue killing people, so anyone with any possible knowledge, no matter how small or unimportant, and even if they know something or not, are all gone.  He wants it wiped out.  If he doesn't, I'd think Palpatine maybe would, and he IS a prick even if Vader isn't.  Maybe any survivor with any information would pass it onto other Rebels, or whoever, and there's absolutely NO reason to keep them alive except a softer heart.  There's every reason to kill them, if just so you're mind is at ease (assuming Vader's a bit of a dick, of course).

#2 There's only zero risk, if there's zero information.  Tarkin had the same thought that even if they had the info, nothing could be done with it.  If he'd blown up Yavin IV, there's more Rebels than the ones there.  There's a galaxy of a "billion billion worlds"...  You only tempt fate by leaving survivors, at all, regardless of timelines or any other factor.

#3 Again, it's a galaxy of a "billion billion worlds".  A small class of ship with a small crew, as the Tantive IV had, which a number were killed outright, are inconsequential to the Imperial war machine running or not.  Some could hold secrets.  I would think they're kept as long as they felt was necessary, however, Vader chokes the senior officer to death.  I don't doubt some are kept for a while, but I think by the time Leia's death order is given, they're already dead.  Interrogated and exhausted of information.  Any information they were holding out on, especially regarding the new super secret ultimate weapon thing that cost a lot, is going to go with them, and not be useful to anyone.  That to me far outvalues a Rebel soldier's usefulness as a slave, or even a sleeper "manchurian candidate" type situation.  Ultimately you have the Death Star now, and if you've secured its secrets, you wouldn't even need such an elaborate scheme.

I totally see your points, I just don't agree is all.  It's an impasse, but not one without seeing what each other's points are anyway.
2011 Rebel Fleet Trooper Gets My Seal Of Approval!  But Where's The Friggin' Holster On Him!?
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