Author Topic: Rebel Uniforms  (Read 1601 times)

Offline Paul

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Rebel Uniforms
« on: August 7, 2003, 09:13 PM »
Ok this will probably require some EU or West End Games Knowledge or just some good old guessing..

The uniform we see Lando Wearing as a General and the uniform we see Crix Madine wearing in ROTJ seems to be a "Duty" uniform.  Is that a Rebel Navy uniform or a Rebel Army Uniform.  Also does the Rebellion have different branches like the Empire does?

During the Trilogy we see Rebel Officers wearing the New Hope Khaki/Browns with belted tunics and caps or in the Capt. Antilles uni on the Tantive IV.

In ESB you can't really count the Uni's there because they all have on Extreme Weather Gear.

ROTJ we see the previously mentioned Madine/Lando Unis, the Fatigues worn by the Commando's, even some different uni's worn by members at the briefing.

I was just trying to figure out if the Rebels had the 4 required classes of Uniforms or not. Or were even structured to do so.  I am going to have to start reading more sources.  

I know by the Time the New Republic Rolls around they have Dress Uniforms that when described in the books sound Very Dissimilar to what Madine/Lando wore, leading me to believe that what they had on was Battle Dress and not "walking out" dress.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Rebel Uniforms
« Reply #1 on: August 8, 2003, 03:42 AM »
Hey Paul,

I've been working on a cohesive explanation to rebel uniform, rank, and general structure as a guide to the uniforms we see of the Alliance on-screen.

It's my opinion that the Alliance, as a "Small" (Only in relative terms here, when compared to the Empire) military organization that they rely heavily on Special Forces.

With that in mind, my base theory goes like this...

There's the Alliance Fleet which consists of the majority of the military.  The commanders/officers wear the khaki uniforms of Captain Antilles and such, mid and low officers wear the other non-descript uniforms seen at the Yavin ceremony, and the enlisted personnel are the techs and rebel fleet troopers.

Hoth uniforms are cold weather fleet uniforms, more or less.

The 2nd branch of the Alliance military, and the one which sees the most frontline/combat action is the Alliance Special ops.  To me this includes Madine and the Rebel Commando units.  I think Lando's acting within the special forces unit...  He's not full-scale military tactical genius it seems, but he is crafty and maybe his expertise within the Alliance Spec. Forces would be of greater value than making him a "fleet admiral" or "Fleet General" such as Dodonna or Ackbar (BTW, Mon Cal uniforms may be Alliance bridge crew uniforms, we really don't know).

It's a rough idea of what I'm working on though Paul...  It was originally going to be a database with uniform sketches and a diagram breaking down the levels which each uniform are associated with, as well as their specialties and whatnot.

Some sources somewhat back up my ideas, some don't...  There's VERY little "official" material on what the uniforms and structure of the Alliance actually are though. :(

A good reason for the uniform differences between ROTJ and the previous 2 films is that ROTJ did not have a military advisor on staff.  That's why the Imperial ranks suddenly all became the same (Which is basically something nobody can logically explain away).  The new military guy or costumer may have just said "Eh, F it, let's just give them new uniforms", for all we know.

There's a ton of uniform differences, a few carry over from ANH to ROTJ though to suggest continuity and such, such as Fleet Techs being on Home One, as well as some of the "mid-ranking" officer uniforms showing up on Home One (Wearing leggings though).

So in short, I feel the Fleet, and Spec. Forces are 2 separate entities within the Alliance military structure...  They act as independant groups, and the Spec. Forces take the brunt of the grunt work while fleet forces are for the rarer "large" combat engagements as well as maintaining bases/ships and such.  And yeah, they fight too, but only when needed.

Spec. Forces are like the ground troop equivalent of the Alliance fighter corps.  The fighters perform small hit & fade missions routinely...  The Spec. Forces do something simliar, but on the ground, or in a station or whatnot as opposed to in a fighter. :)

There are, of course, rebel cells that aren't openly part of the organized rebellion as well, but work in conjunction WITH the main military body of the Alliance as well.  Groups like the Dressellian Liberation Army, Tibrian Liberation Army, and any other # of guerilla groups resisting Imperial control on their homeworld (And anywhere else they can).  And they often will find their skills and expertise requested in other engagements such as the Dressellians who accompanied the squad to Endor.

Perhaps they had been to Endor before?  Or perhaps they knew of the shield Generator's structural weaknesses?  Or maybe they simply volunteered and were accepted into the group?

I know some disagree with me about Alliance uniforms, but they haven't got any real "proof" to counter my opinions...  The lack of info on the Alliance makes that quite difficult for any POV to be proven.
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Offline Paul

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Re: Rebel Uniforms
« Reply #2 on: August 8, 2003, 08:41 AM »
Well this is a topic I can get into so if you need help building a database let me know.

Another Idea I was pondering is that perhaps the reason we see so many differences is that the in the Galactic Civil War, it is much like our own.

During the Early Part of the war when the South had all the Various State "Militias" as units (and before any DEPOT decided to start making any Uniform) you saw anything from the High Polish and Guilded Uniforms of the Virginians to the Homespun "uniforms" of the Texas Volunteers.

I may have to buy a West End Games Sourcebook just to look at the pictures...


Offline LandotheScoundrel

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Re: Rebel Uniforms
« Reply #3 on: August 8, 2003, 10:12 AM »
JJ, I don't think Ackbar's uniform is a bridge crew uniform, because (although its from a cut scene) there's a shot of Madine in his briefing-room uniform in the command seat of another Cruiser.

My guess is that Ackbar's uniform is Mon-Calamari specific. And maybe since he's such a key player, he's allowed to do his own thing.

Another (more plausible) idea is that he's wearing an Admiral's uniform rather than a general's uniform.
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Offline Paul

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Re: Rebel Uniforms
« Reply #4 on: August 8, 2003, 05:26 PM »
I've also always wondered if the Outfit that Luke wears at Bespin in ESB was a Rebel Uniform.  It seems Luke was actually in the Rebel Army/Navy/Air Force.  Mercenaries aren't usually given command of flight groups.  Sure his Uniform was a bit different from everybody else on Hoth, but still within standards.

I agree that the Mon Calamari could also be a specific uniform to their Species/Planet.  Obviously it would be difficult to have 1 standard uniform for an Army that has Hundreds of Species.....

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Rebel Uniforms
« Reply #5 on: August 8, 2003, 06:27 PM »
Quote
JJ, I don't think Ackbar's uniform is a bridge crew uniform, because (although its from a cut scene) there's a shot of Madine in his briefing-room uniform in the command seat of another Cruiser.

I know the scenes you mean Lando, I've seen those too.  In the original scripting Madine was given command of one of the vessels (for some reason) and had a larger role in the film.

The one problem I remember (continuity wise) was that there was a black guy in a HOTH uniform with him even on the bridge of that ship!  Made no sense...

I chalk that up to the whole "No military advisor on set" issues ROTJ had...  

It is plausible that Madine has some kind of experience in space combat from his background in the Empire though, and due to the severity of the situation he was asked to helm one of the support vessels to the fleet?  He'd maintain his rank as General though, within the Spec. Forces.

Basically I tend to just disregard that cutscene though...  I think Lucas does too. T here's very little to be found of those scenes.  I sorta wish I knew how they played out, just out of curiosity.

Paul,

The uniform Luke wears to Bespin is a Rebel Pilot "ground" uniform...  Their basic duds for tromping around a base instead of their flight gear...

I hear you on the U.S. civil war issue, but even in our own Civil War, the CSA had a guideline to a "base" uniform...  Not all regiments followed it though, of course, from volunteers like the Zouves and such on, but there was a base uniform that was the more "dominant" one in the CSA seen...  Even though it was kinda uncoordinated.

The analogy I'd put to it is more like this...

The U.S. war for Independance is more my theory.  There's a base army "The regulars" which are the RFT for example, but there's also "Minute men" like the Dresellians or other militia groups...  

People label the Alliance as "Small" but what they forget is that they're only small on a galactic scale.  I'd think that a SINGLE planet supporting the Alliance could supply them with a uniform...  Maybe not a great uniform, which the RFT uniforms don't look high quality, but a uniform none the less.  

And of course there's a lot of other uniforms mixed in through the various militias and such...

For the Mon Cal, there's a few possibilities...  I'm not sure my idea for those being bridge crew uniforms is invalid...  It could be bridge crew, but still a mon cal design since the Mon Cal ships are the main ships of Alliance fleets, but it could also be that the Mon Cal are allowed to keep their uniforms on Mon Cal ships only?  

I just think it's possible that there's a Mon Cal ship somewhere with humans working as part of the bridge crew, and wearing a similar uniform.  

There's always a way to explain things to your liking...  That's the fun of EU I think, haha.  There ARE Humans on Home One in uniforms that resemble those from ANH though, but none of them are on the bridge which seems key...  Only Mon Calamari man the bridge it seems (maybe due to physiology).  What if a Mon Cal ship had a human captain though, for whatever reason?  Maybe he'd be wearing a variation of the Mon Cal uniform perhaps?   And maybe a Mon Cal captain of a Blockade Runner/Corvette has on a uniform like Captain Antilles did in ANH?
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Offline Paul

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Re: Rebel Uniforms
« Reply #6 on: August 8, 2003, 10:20 PM »
Just a thought on the Hoth Uniforms on the Bridge Crew.  Leia wore here Hoth Uniform sans Vest and Boots on Bespin when she wasn't in the dress.

I am watching ESB right now is why I thought of it...

I can see we are going to need to do a breakdown of Uniforms from each movie just to get the Catagories down, then blend in some EU...

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Offline Paul

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Re: Rebel Uniforms
« Reply #7 on: November 5, 2003, 08:47 AM »
Watching ESB last night, I came up with a question that hopefully somebody with some Expanded Universe knowledge or a keener eye than mine can answer...

How many branches of Military does the Rebellion have? How many were represented on Hoth?


Also since we know George Lucas liked to make the SW Universe look "used", can anybody help me pin=point the actual stuff they used to make the Typical Front Line Hoth Rebel. I can easily tell the Rifle is Modified MP43/Stg44, but what about the boots, pants, jackets, vests, caps etc. Are they all made specifically for the movie or did they snag them from the Norwegian Army during filming? I figure I have 355 days till the next Halloween Party I have to attend so I may put one together.....ok who are we kidding, I'm gonna just wear it while I have the A/C turned down to 42 and watch ESB next time the wife and kiddo are out of town...

Offline Paul

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Re: Rebel Uniforms
« Reply #8 on: December 1, 2003, 08:59 AM »
Ok rather than start a new topic, I'll just add a second question...

On the Xwing uniform (and Y Wing Uniform in ANH), were the boots they are wearing more of a "Jack Boot" or more like a riding boot.  In all the publicity stills and stuff that you see of Luke in his Xwing gear, he is wearing the Riding Style boot, like Han Solo Wears the whole trilogy.

Anybody seen any other pics/sources of pilots that aren't Luke(since he may be the exception and not the rule)

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Rebel Uniforms
« Reply #9 on: December 2, 2003, 10:08 PM »
Hey Paul,

I'll try getting to your questions here ASAP but I'm having a lotta PC troubles lately so I just wanted to let ya know I'll be on this with my opinions/answers soon.  Just bare with me while I get my PC life back in order because it's currently in mad dissaray. :)
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Rebel Uniforms
« Reply #10 on: December 3, 2003, 05:33 AM »
OK, here we go...

Quote
How many branches of Military does the Rebellion have? How many were represented on Hoth?

OK, as far as I can tell Paul, there's at most 2 branches of the Alliance Military, basically...  But, it's also possible there's only one real military and that ground and "space" are combined.

Most assume there's an "Army" and a "Navy".  Army takes care of combat on planets, Navy takes care of combat in the air/space, etc...  

My opinion is though, that the "Fleet Command" is the only real branch of the military.  That they're the basic combat unit of the Alliance.  Branched off from them are the Special Forces, which I feel are an entity all their own and they encompass not only Special Forces soldier units but also Intelligence/covert ops, etc...

The "Fleet" Makes up the bulk of the fighting force.  Liken them to Marines if you will...  Some work aboard ships like the Tantive IV, Mon Remonda, Liberty or other vessel of the fleet...  Some perhaps work in space stations, or on land bases.  Either way, they're the main force.  They would include pilots, Fleet Troopers (Front line soldiers, as well as crewmen/personnel), Technicians, and all the various levels of troopers/officers.

The Special Forces are a separate entity who work with the Fleet...  They see combat maybe more routinely, and perform multiple tasks against the Empire as well, but they're strictly combat, espianoge, sabotage, etc...  They would include everything from whole units of special forces like we see on Endor, or like the famed Rebel Infiltrators, or they would be limited to individual soldiers or "agents" like the well-known Kyle Katarn perhaps, or a spy undercover even.

These guys would have officers like Crix Madine, and his uniform...  This also sorta covers the uniform difference, and it partly covers why Lando would be part of their little clique and automatically promoted to "General".  He's technically not a "military" or front line officer...  He's more in the CIA of the Alliance, sorta...  

I have theorized that Spec. Forces would be so important the Alliance though, that they would be a separate branch unto themselves.  An off-shoot entity of the main fighting force, the "Fleet", but the Fleet is the generic umbrella term that covers both Army and Navy...  

I think it's entirely possible the Empire works in a similar fashion...  There's not necessarily a distinction between Army/Navy.  This would explain why there's little uniform distinction between their officers.  It's more an Imperial "Military" than separate branches.  

Quote
Also since we know George Lucas liked to make the SW Universe look "used", can anybody help me pin=point the actual stuff they used to make the Typical Front Line Hoth Rebel.


Well, I can say that the Rebel Footsoldier's blaster rifle on Hoth that we see them use the most (And on Endor) is a modified German MP-44 I believe it is...  

Their goggles were simply ski goggles as well, but the rest of their uniforms were made especially for the film if I'm not mistaken.

The side-arms on the Hoth soldiers varried between the DL-44 style blasters of Han/Luke to the RFT style blaster we see on the Tantive IV and Death Star, and even some of Ponda Baba's type of blaster were used.  MOst of the soldiers seemed to have a sidearm though, in addition to the rifle.

The rest of the get-up was pretty well hand-made as far as I know though.

 
Quote
On the Xwing uniform (and Y Wing Uniform in ANH), were the boots they are wearing more of a "Jack Boot" or more like a riding boot.  In all the publicity stills and stuff that you see of Luke in his Xwing gear, he is wearing the Riding Style boot, like Han Solo Wears the whole trilogy.


I'd say it's likely that the boots were like you see in the production photo, though some shots of Luke's boots can be pretty clearly seen in the film as he ascends and descends the ladder to his X-Wing.  So keep your eyes peeled on those images is my best advice.

And keep in mind on Luke's ONE leg he's wearing a band of cylinders similar to what many WW2 pilots wore, containing flares and survival gear and whatnot.  So his boot may appear different on that leg, but I'm sure it's identical underneath to the other boot of course.
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Offline Paul

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Re: Rebel Uniforms
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2004, 09:05 PM »
ok not exactly Uniform related, but is the RFT blaster the same one used by the Death Star Trooper in ANH?

Ok here is a Uniform Q....do you think Lando's Uniform is typical of a Rebel Flight General?  Or is he a "peacock" ala the flamboyance of most young generals of the American Civil War...like Custer or Stuart...

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Rebel Uniforms
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2004, 11:15 PM »
The RFT Blaster is the same as the DST blaster...  Yes Paul.

As for Lando's duds, I would go with the flamboyant idea...  Or possibly it's not even a uniform at all, but more or less just another outfit of his and his title of "General" is short-term for the upcoming conflict...  Kinda like Han's.

Lando's uniform resembles Madine's and the other Generals in their duds at Endor, but it's not quite right.

As for the branch of service, I don't consider ANY of the generals at Endor as "FLeet Generals".  TO me their uniform is typical of a Spec. Forces uniform, which is a separate military unit from "The Fleet", whose officers wear the uniforms we see in ANH, such as Antilles, Dodonna, Willard, etc...  And on Hoth we see them in their cold weather duds.

That's how I've gone about the infamous uniform continuity discrepency anyway.  They're simply 2 separate military entities all together.

If there's a rep from "THe Fleet" at Endor I'd say it's Ackbar...  Which his uniform may be indicative of a certain sector of Fleet Command that even humans wear as well.  We don't see a Fleet Admiral, just Fleet Generals in the films, so the Mon Cal uniforms may just be high ranking Fleet Naval uniforms of some sort...  That or I've also considered the notion that the Mon Cal command crews for Cruisers have kept their uniforms out of respect for their donation of their fleets, and that the Humans would wear the uniforms we see in ANH, as there are people in the mid-level officer ANH duds running around MC Cruisers if you look closely.  
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