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Iron Man (Movie and Sequels)
Qui-Gon Jim:
If you have ever dealt with alcoholism/drug dependence, then you'll know that it takes a LONG time for someone to regain the trust they squander away. I just don't think that they could handle it in a realistic way in the forum of a mass-market summer blockbuster. I don't think it has anything to do with offending anyone (although recovery experts would probably crap all over such a quick turnaround as you are explaining) but more with catering to the expectations of the audience they are aiming for.
I do agree that those PTSD scenes were a little weird and never really seemed to have a point in retrospect. There was never really a moment where Tony overcame someone talking about NY and the events of The Avengers to save the day, unless I am just not remembering it. Seemed a little tacked on, and changing it to the bottle would feel just as (or perhaps more) tacked on.
JediJman:
--- Quote from: Qui-Gon Jim on June 14, 2013, 01:09 PM ---If you have ever dealt with alcoholism/drug dependence, then you'll know that it takes a LONG time for someone to regain the trust they squander away. I just don't think that they could handle it in a realistic way in the forum of a mass-market summer blockbuster.
--- End quote ---
Okay, for starters my dad was an alcoholic, never got help, and died two years ago from alcoholism. I don't want to make the conversation about me, but you should know that I have a little first hand experience with the disease.
Secondly, what's your definition of a "long time?" Stark has been drinking for years and years according to the movies. It isn't about regaining trust - it's about the pivotal moment when you decide that there's something more important in your life than drinking. Agree to disagree I guess - they could easily show that in the way I described it.
Lastly, you're talking about "realistic" in a movie about Extremis tech and a guy with a flying suit of armor. ;) They could make it just as real as they made the panic attacks, so if you bought that sub plot, the alcoholism shouldn't be a stretch.
Nicklab:
Talking about the issue of alcoholism is one thing, but making a summer movie with it as a major plot is another thing entirely. When Shane Black attempted to make Iron Man 3 more of a character study about Tony, I get the sense that the audience wasn't on board as much as they had been for Iron Man, Iron Man 2 and Avengers. And you want to take this character study to an even darker place? Just from the standpoint of producing a summer movie it seems like a bad idea.
How bad? Apparently, Disney didn't want to go there either. And they told Shane Black as much.
And what about your star? Robert Downey Jr. has been through a very rough and public battle with substance abuse. He's defied the odds and managed to turn his life and career around. He's also one of the most gifted actors of his generation. And if he was going to do a movie with a character arc that revolves around substance abuse, I think he would want it to be done the right way. Especially since he's been through substance abuse and recovery. A summer popcorn movie does not seem like the right venue to examine a very complex issue like alcoholism.
JediJman:
--- Quote from: Nicklab on June 15, 2013, 07:52 AM --- When Shane Black attempted to make Iron Man 3 more of a character study about Tony, I get the sense that the audience wasn't on board as much as they had been for Iron Man, Iron Man 2 and Avengers.
--- End quote ---
You get the sense the audience wasn't on board? Based on what research Nick? Come on - this has to do with your opinion, not some gauge of the viewing public.
--- Quote from: Nicklab on June 15, 2013, 07:52 AM ---And you want to take this character study to an even darker place?
--- End quote ---
Even darker than what, panic attacks? I'd hardly call the movie dark, but yeah, I think people could handle a darker storyline with a flaw Stark will have to chip away at the rest of his life. Were you happy with how they resolved the panic attacks? He just magically overcomes them by fixing things? What a cop out.
Try reading This writer's opinion. I like the way he sums it up:
"I think it would have been great to see darker elements of Tony Stark’s lifestyle dealt with in the film. Overcoming one’s own weaknesses—real weaknesses not just being scared of putting on tights—is even tougher than fighting Ben Kingsley in makeup, and suggesting that being responsible about drinking and staying in recovery would have been a powerful message about what makes a hero. Maybe next time?"
--- Quote from: Nicklab on June 15, 2013, 07:52 AM ---And what about your star? Robert Downey Jr. has been through a very rough and public battle with substance abuse. He's defied the odds and managed to turn his life and career around. He's also one of the most gifted actors of his generation. And if he was going to do a movie with a character arc that revolves around substance abuse, I think he would want it to be done the right way.
--- End quote ---
Maybe, but we don't really know what RDJ's opinion is. Maybe he signed on for this character thinking he could play out a story of substance abuse and redemption. Maybe he would come across as incredibly believable and realistic because of the fact that he's gone through it in real life. Maybe taking on that challenge and hitting it out of the park would give this movie some emotional firepower. The best movies teach you something about yourself or give you a moral to rally behind. What was the moral of IM3?
As I originally stated, this is Disney coping out and playing it safe. Better to get a solid base hit than shoot for a home run in their eyes. I can understand that with lots of money on the line, I just don't agree with it. Even Black and Pierce note "you pick your battles" which suggests that they wanted to go this route too before getting shot down. As your article points out, there are a few crazy moms who were already speaking out against the drinking in earlier movies. Catering to the crazy few and playing it safe is the definition of selling out - I'm just not a fan of that. This story had the potential to be so much more than it was.
Go back and read the story revision I told with Iron Man's panic attacks replaced by drinking. Why does he end up in the middle of nowhere after the Mandarin's attack? He was drunk beforehand and blacked out flying. Why does the Iron Patriot even get involved? Stark's too drunk to handle it. Why doesn't Stark use his army of suits in every fight? It could have been something he developed after sobering up or even a contingency plan he put in place because he was worried about being drunk. Do you think any of that would have made the movie worse somehow? I gave IM3 a 7 out of 10 - with the alcoholism in there it would have gotten a 10 from me and maybe made it something really memorable instead of just yet another glossed over action sequel.
Nicklab:
--- Quote from: JediJman on June 15, 2013, 09:42 AM ---
--- Quote from: Nicklab on June 15, 2013, 07:52 AM ---And what about your star? Robert Downey Jr. has been through a very rough and public battle with substance abuse. He's defied the odds and managed to turn his life and career around. He's also one of the most gifted actors of his generation. And if he was going to do a movie with a character arc that revolves around substance abuse, I think he would want it to be done the right way.
--- End quote ---
Maybe, but we don't really know what RDJ's opinion is. Maybe he signed on for this character thinking he could play out a story of substance abuse and redemption. Maybe he would come across as incredibly believable and realistic because of the fact that he's gone through it in real life. Maybe taking on that challenge and hitting it out of the park would give this movie some emotional firepower. The best movies teach you something about yourself or give you a moral to rally behind. What was the moral of IM3?
--- End quote ---
Let's not forget that RDJ was only 3 years removed from being in recovery when he was cast as Tony Stark in 2007. And with his comeback, circa 2004, he has had to deal with contractual clauses and insurance policies that were designed to ensure that he would stay clean and complete his work on film projects. Reportedly, this may still be the case of RDJ's contracts to this day. Are his issues under control? I hope for his sake that he is. Especially in light of some of the amazing work he's generated in the past decade. But addicts do relapse. And most people in recovery will tell you that it's possible for anyone to relapse.
Then take a look at the box office receipts: the Marvel films with RDJ as Iron Man have grossed over $3.9 Billion. That is HUGE money in the bank. Do the executives at Marvel Studios / Disney take a risk with that successful of a franchise by doing a story about substance abuse with a star who has had very public issues with substance abuse? Try looking at that purely from a business standpoint, and I don't think the studio would want to take that risk. Call it a copout as much as you want. But remember, this is show BUSINESS.
As for the "Demon in a bottle" comic story arc, it was groundbreaking stuff. I don't think anyone would deny that. But the summer movie format just does not seem optimal for appropriate treatment of that kind of issue, and the dignity that it deserves. Clearly, you seem to think that you can write that movie. Will it really work? Would it be successful? That's another issue entirely.
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