Author Topic: Iron Man 3  (Read 2463 times)

Online BillCable

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2013, 12:32 PM »
- I was really surprised to not see any ties back to other Marvel movies.  A visit from Banner, a phone call to Cap, a date with the Widow...it was really strange not to see a cameo from one of the Avengers when they've done this in pretty much every Avengers related movie.  Just another missed opportunity that made it feel less than what it could have been.

I take it you didn't sit through the end credits, then...
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2013, 02:30 PM »
- I was really surprised to not see any ties back to other Marvel movies.  A visit from Banner, a phone call to Cap, a date with the Widow...it was really strange not to see a cameo from one of the Avengers when they've done this in pretty much every Avengers related movie.  Just another missed opportunity that made it feel less than what it could have been.

I take it you didn't sit through the end credits, then...

I did, but that felt more like a joke than anything.  No lead to another movie, but yeah at least some kind of tie in. 
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Offline McMetal

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #62 on: June 12, 2013, 11:20 PM »
Good review, I saw it last weekend and pretty much agree on all those points, especially re: missed opportunities.

If that's it, hopefully they let it stand as the definitive body of work. RDJ did a great job, and the movies are all pretty decent. I don't need to see these remade in 3 years with some other doosh.

I will say, I wish there was more suit time in 3, and more of a traditional "super villain" - he has yet to ever really face anybody with actual super-powers, but I guess that was by design.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 11:20 PM by McMetal »
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Offline Jayson

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #63 on: June 12, 2013, 11:47 PM »
- I thought the panic attacks were a nice touch given that you have a relatively newb-hero coming out of an alien invasion.  But they could/should have tied that into Tony's drinking to make him a truly flawed hero.  You see signs of his drinking in earlier movies and he could have easily been drunk instead during all those panic attack scenes.  Alchoholism is such a major theme in the comics that its hard for me to believe we've gone three movies without touching on this.

I think that since this was a full-blown Disney movie (I believe Avengers was in production during the acquisition) alcoholism as a result of PTSD wasn't going to be touched.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2013, 07:24 AM »
So, this prompted me to run a search for "Disney Alcoholism" to see if they have ever tackled the issue in another movie.  I was surprised to find dozens of articles claiming that Tony's drinking problem actually was a sub plot in the first script!  But of course, Disney wants feel good movies and panic attacks are a more socially acceptible disease than alcoholism.  Kudos to the original screenplay writer for trying to cover an authentic, critical element of Stark's character and a big FU to Disney for their cowardess.   >:(
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Offline Qui-Gon Jim

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #65 on: June 13, 2013, 01:14 PM »
I think the reason that Stark's alcoholism is not a plot point is because there isn't a really good way to introduce this very real issue, and resolve is satisfactorily in the course of 2 1/2 hours.  Comics have the luxury of being able to deal with the ramifications over several months.  Stark's demons are a way to keep him out of the armor, to try something different.  The producers (and the audience) don't want a film where Tony isn't in the armor. 

There are plenty of OTHER movies about alcoholism.

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #66 on: June 13, 2013, 01:45 PM »
Agreed.  And I wouldn't be so quick to blame Disney like the only things they're willing to produce are warm and fuzzy.  The alcoholism story is legendary, but not really the best thing for a summer blockbuster.  I don't think Disney would be against it due to objectionable content, but more because it doesn't fit well with the movie arc or what audiences expect from a summer popcorn flick.
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Offline Nicklab

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2013, 03:41 PM »
I think everyone is in agreement.  I don't think you can tell that story over the course of a movie.  If it we were talking about a television series, that might be a different thing.  There you have the time to do the long play in developing plot points.  Tony's drinking has been written into the movies.  And the only time it proved to be a problem was in Iron Man 2 at the party.  Shane Black really didn't touch on it in IM3, interestingly enough.  But Joss Whedon did work the drinking into Avengers.  Will it develop it anything more?  We'll have to wait and see.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2013, 05:26 PM »
I think the reason that Stark's alcoholism is not a plot point is because there isn't a really good way to introduce this very real issue, and resolve is satisfactorily in the course of 2 1/2 hours.  Comics have the luxury of being able to deal with the ramifications over several months.  Stark's demons are a way to keep him out of the armor, to try something different.  The producers (and the audience) don't want a film where Tony isn't in the armor. 

I think everyone is in agreement.

Almost everyone - not me

 - Alcoholism WAS IN THE INITIAL SCRIPT Black was working on, so they clearly found a way to incorporate it.  It was dumped because of Disney executives, not because it couldn't fit into the movie.

 - It's usage was intended as a sub plot, not the main story.  Doesn't mean Tony is out of the armor the whole movie and honestly he was out of the armor most of IM3 anyway, so not sure where you're going with that.  Drunk Iron Man was a recent comic plot point and sets up some really interesting questions about the downside of having superpowered vigilantes.  This also sets up the potential to have an IM4 with limited RDJ if need be, which would be a nice option now that he's indicated he wants a break.

 - The drinking was already established in both Iron Man and Avengers movies, so its not like they needed to spend time building this up.  If you can resolve an arms dealer enjoying making weapons then have him swear off them in one movie, then you can clearly have someone enjoying booze and swearing off it in the course of one story.  Alcoholism is not something you overcome like a virus.  They can't "solve" alcoholism in a lone movie, but they can easily address it and have Tony walk away from it all in one movie.

Honestly, just take the 4(ish) scenes where Tony is having panic attacks and replace them with scenes of him being drunk.  Maybe you need another 1-2 minutes of added setup, but you could probably just put a drink in his hand in a few early scenes and rely on the already constructed groundwork from prior films.  When Pepper is taken and Tony's drunk, War Machine swoops in becasue Tony's shnockered, actually giving the "Iron Patriot" more of a reason for being and more purpose in the film.  He can't cut it, so Tony has to come to the realization that his friends (Pepper, Rhodey, Happy) are more important to him than drinking.  He sobers up, swears off the drink, comes up with a system to control multiple armors at once, then the last 30 minutes of the movie are exactly as we saw it.  Hell, the narration we saw with Bruce could have actually been Tony at an AA meeting. 

I hope they don't touch it now - it wouldn't make any sense since they ignored the opportunity with IM3.  This and the missed link back to SHEILD just baffles me.  Why would you not plug the TV show and future movies in some way?  Can't believe executives were so concerned about drinking, but dropped the ball on SHIELD.

I liked IM3, but this route is completely achievable, credible, and proably a lot more emotional/meaningful for people than what we ended up with. 
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Offline P-Siddy

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2013, 05:33 PM »
Disney and drink (and drugs, etc) go well with some of their former stars.  >:D

Offline Qui-Gon Jim

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #70 on: June 14, 2013, 01:09 PM »
If you have ever dealt with alcoholism/drug dependence, then you'll know that it takes a LONG time for someone to regain the trust they squander away.  I just don't think that they could handle it in a realistic way in the forum of a mass-market summer blockbuster.  I don't think it has anything to do with offending anyone (although recovery experts would probably crap all over such a quick turnaround as you are explaining) but more with catering to the expectations of the audience they are aiming for.

I do agree that those PTSD scenes were a little weird and never really seemed to have a point in retrospect.  There was never really a moment where Tony overcame someone talking about NY and the events of The Avengers to save the day, unless I am just not remembering it.  Seemed a little tacked on, and changing it to the bottle would feel just as (or perhaps more) tacked on.

Offline JediJman

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2013, 03:25 AM »
If you have ever dealt with alcoholism/drug dependence, then you'll know that it takes a LONG time for someone to regain the trust they squander away.  I just don't think that they could handle it in a realistic way in the forum of a mass-market summer blockbuster.

Okay, for starters my dad was an alcoholic, never got help, and died two years ago from alcoholism.  I don't want to make the conversation about me, but you should know that I have a little first hand experience with the disease. 

Secondly, what's your definition of a "long time?"  Stark has been drinking for years and years according to the movies.  It isn't about regaining trust - it's about the pivotal moment when you decide that there's something more important in your life than drinking.  Agree to disagree I guess - they could easily show that in the way I described it.

Lastly, you're talking about "realistic" in a movie about Extremis tech and a guy with a flying suit of armor.  ;) They could make it just as real as they made the panic attacks, so if you bought that sub plot, the alcoholism shouldn't be a stretch.
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Offline Nicklab

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #72 on: June 15, 2013, 07:52 AM »
Talking about the issue of alcoholism is one thing, but making a summer movie with it as a major plot is another thing entirely.  When Shane Black attempted to make Iron Man 3 more of a character study about Tony, I get the sense that the audience wasn't on board as much as they had been for Iron Man, Iron Man 2 and Avengers.  And you want to take this character study to an even darker place?  Just from the standpoint of producing a summer movie it seems like a bad idea.

How bad?  Apparently, Disney didn't want to go there either.  And they told Shane Black as much. 

And what about your star?  Robert Downey Jr. has been through a very rough and public battle with substance abuse.  He's defied the odds and managed to turn his life and career around.  He's also one of the most gifted actors of his generation.  And if he was going to do a movie with a character arc that revolves around substance abuse, I think he would want it to be done the right way.  Especially since he's been through substance abuse and recovery.  A summer popcorn movie does not seem like the right venue to examine a very complex issue like alcoholism.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #73 on: June 15, 2013, 09:42 AM »
  When Shane Black attempted to make Iron Man 3 more of a character study about Tony, I get the sense that the audience wasn't on board as much as they had been for Iron Man, Iron Man 2 and Avengers. 

You get the sense the audience wasn't on board?  Based on what research Nick?  Come on - this has to do with your opinion, not some gauge of the viewing public.

And you want to take this character study to an even darker place?

Even darker than what, panic attacks?  I'd hardly call the movie dark, but yeah, I think people could handle a darker storyline with a flaw Stark will have to chip away at the rest of his life.  Were you happy with how they resolved the panic attacks?  He just magically overcomes them by fixing things?  What a cop out. 

Try reading This writer's opinion.  I like the way he sums it up: 

"I think it would have been great to see darker elements of Tony Stark’s lifestyle dealt with in the film. Overcoming one’s own weaknesses—real weaknesses not just being scared of putting on tights—is even tougher than fighting Ben Kingsley in makeup, and suggesting that being responsible about drinking and staying in recovery would have been a powerful message about what makes a hero. Maybe next time?"

And what about your star?  Robert Downey Jr. has been through a very rough and public battle with substance abuse.  He's defied the odds and managed to turn his life and career around.  He's also one of the most gifted actors of his generation.  And if he was going to do a movie with a character arc that revolves around substance abuse, I think he would want it to be done the right way.

Maybe, but we don't really know what RDJ's opinion is.  Maybe he signed on for this character thinking he could play out a story of substance abuse and redemption.  Maybe he would come across as incredibly believable and realistic because of the fact that he's gone through it in real life.  Maybe taking on that challenge and hitting it out of the park would give this movie some emotional firepower.  The best movies teach you something about yourself or give you a moral to rally behind.  What was the moral of IM3?

As I originally stated, this is Disney coping out and playing it safe.  Better to get a solid base hit than shoot for a home run in their eyes.  I can understand that with lots of money on the line, I just don't agree with it.  Even Black and Pierce note "you pick your battles" which suggests that they wanted to go this route too before getting shot down.  As your article points out, there are a few crazy moms who were already speaking out against the drinking in earlier movies.  Catering to the crazy few and playing it safe is the definition of selling out - I'm just not a fan of that.  This story had the potential to be so much more than it was.

Go back and read the story revision I told with Iron Man's panic attacks replaced by drinking.  Why does he end up in the middle of nowhere after the Mandarin's attack?  He was drunk beforehand and blacked out flying.  Why does the Iron Patriot even get involved?  Stark's too drunk to handle it.  Why doesn't Stark use his army of suits in every fight?  It could have been something he developed after sobering up or even a contingency plan he put in place because he was worried about being drunk.  Do you think any of that would have made the movie worse somehow?  I gave IM3 a 7 out of 10 - with the alcoholism in there it would have gotten a 10 from me and maybe made it something really memorable instead of just yet another glossed over action sequel.
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Offline Nicklab

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Re: Iron Man 3
« Reply #74 on: June 15, 2013, 10:41 AM »
And what about your star?  Robert Downey Jr. has been through a very rough and public battle with substance abuse.  He's defied the odds and managed to turn his life and career around.  He's also one of the most gifted actors of his generation.  And if he was going to do a movie with a character arc that revolves around substance abuse, I think he would want it to be done the right way.

Maybe, but we don't really know what RDJ's opinion is.  Maybe he signed on for this character thinking he could play out a story of substance abuse and redemption.  Maybe he would come across as incredibly believable and realistic because of the fact that he's gone through it in real life.  Maybe taking on that challenge and hitting it out of the park would give this movie some emotional firepower.  The best movies teach you something about yourself or give you a moral to rally behind.  What was the moral of IM3?

Let's not forget that RDJ was only 3 years removed from being in recovery when he was cast as Tony Stark in 2007.  And with his comeback, circa 2004, he has had to deal with contractual clauses and insurance policies that were designed to ensure that he would stay clean and complete his work on film projects.  Reportedly, this may still be the case of RDJ's contracts to this day.  Are his issues under control?  I hope for his sake that he is.  Especially in light of some of the amazing work he's generated in the past decade.  But addicts do relapse.  And most people in recovery will tell you that it's possible for anyone to relapse.

Then take a look at the box office receipts:  the Marvel films with RDJ as Iron Man have grossed over $3.9 Billion.  That is HUGE money in the bank.  Do the executives at Marvel Studios / Disney take a risk with that successful of a franchise by doing a story about substance abuse with a star who has had very public issues with substance abuse?  Try looking at that purely from a business standpoint, and I don't think the studio would want to take that risk.  Call it a copout as much as you want.  But remember, this is show BUSINESS.

As for the "Demon in a bottle" comic story arc, it was groundbreaking stuff.  I don't think anyone would deny that.  But the summer movie format just does not seem optimal for appropriate treatment of that kind of issue, and the dignity that it deserves.  Clearly, you seem to think that you can write that movie.  Will it really work?  Would it be successful?  That's another issue entirely.
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