Author Topic: Star Wars: The Force Awakens (SPOILERS)  (Read 244236 times)

Offline Diddly

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #540 on: August 21, 2014, 03:44 PM »
Robot Chicken settled the Empire stuff in a sketch that I can't find on YouTube right now. The remaining officers got together and declared that the Emperor was dead, so the fighting HAD to end by the laws of sci-fi. Then they all go to get massages.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #541 on: August 21, 2014, 04:14 PM »
:)
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Offline McMetal

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #542 on: August 21, 2014, 04:32 PM »

LOL, not MY EU books! I hate that garbage...pure fan fiction, IMO.


But the CW cartoon stuff was all brilliant!  ???

LOL, touche!  :-X
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Offline Matt_Fury

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #543 on: August 21, 2014, 05:03 PM »
Robot Chicken settled the Empire stuff in a sketch that I can't find on YouTube right now. The remaining officers got together and declared that the Emperor was dead, so the fighting HAD to end by the laws of sci-fi. Then they all go to get massages.

Here you go!
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Offline Darby

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #544 on: August 21, 2014, 06:20 PM »
It seems like the circumstances regarding the Empire in EP7 are leaning towards either A) the Empire is resurgent B) never really went away and now exists in a state of Cold War with the Republic, such as it is or C) the war never really ended. I'm fine with either, but would prefer something along the lines of B. Lucas intended for the Empire to be defeated at the end of ROTJ, as he intended the film to be the last at various points. He also intended for there to be as many as 6 more films beyond Jedi at one point, so it's uncertain if the Empire had been truly defeated. As has been pointed here and elsewhere, the Empire suffers a major defeat at Endor, but not a fatal one. You can look to what's happening in the Middle East right now (to a certain extent) and elsewhere in history to see how this plays out.

The Empire, militarily and politically, remains intact post Endor. The Emperor dissolved the senate, placed command of the galaxy in the hands of regional governors, and supported them with oppressive military that is only slightly represented at Endor. The entire Rebel fleet is present at Endor and suffers more extensive losses, one assumes, than the Imperial Fleet did. That same Rebel fleet is unlikely to have completely liberated the galaxy from an Imperial war machine that is at 97% capacity. No doubt some systems reject the Empire and there is a popular uprising. No doubt the Empire responds. No doubt someone, one of those governors or as yet unknown character (Max Von Sydow?) steps into Palpatine's shoes. The Rebels and Empire settle into a decades battle of attrition that sees a fledging new repbulic constantly under assault by an Empire that is simply too large and too powerful to truly go away.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #545 on: August 21, 2014, 08:46 PM »
Quote
The entire Rebel fleet is present at Endor

With you to here...

This is debatable.  Again the Alliance is small, on a galactic level...  Are they small on an "Earth" level?  Probably not.  I've always envisioned them to have many fleets themselves, just many less than the Empire.

The battle itself doesn't even convey the scope and scale of what the Alliance brings in because half the ships are barely visible save for shot-by-shot close examination and they're mostly background dots on a matte painting, very distant from the battle but clearly not Imperial looking (assuming all the Empire brings are Destroyers and anything similar).

This is a lot of what you believe, perceive, or just want to believe maybe.

In the EU though, the Alliance was anything but "small", just small comparatively.  That means nothing, nor did it ever really mean anything, at this point of course.

Personally I viewed the Alliance, and the war in general, something like this...

The Alliance is group obviously, but at its core there is a strong central body.  Strong militarily, organized, equipped.  They have "safe worlds", they make use of wild space, the outer rim, etc.  They have support from a wide variety of factions rebelling on their individual planets.  They all attempt coordination, but as with any alliance, there may be friction.  Dresellians would fall under one of those militias to me, Tibrians, etc.

Anyway, again my personal view of how the Alliance is running the war on their end, they're looking to keep mobile so they keep many fleets...  They pull hit and run tactics.  They'll shoot, then scoot, and keep the Imperial fleets broken and chasing.  They'll try drawing them out of the inner worlds as much and into the outer rim (or beyond) to run their supply lines thin.  The Alliance bases (and this is my opinion) are likely set up to be hard to detect, but near enough to these supply lanes where they can harass and inflict the most damage on the Empire that is possible while the Fleets try to keep one step ahead of them.

In some EU that used to be supported as a tactic...  The "first major victory" mentioned in the opening crawl of ANH was actually a series of major ships destroyed.  One sabotaged, one outright destroyed while stranded due to support vessels with repair equipment being destroyed, etc.

The Alliance had come into its own tactically and gotten the attention of the Emperor at that point.

Just a thought.  I enjoy talking the hypotheticals of the war strategies in Star Wars.  The movies obviously don't deal with minutia like that because it bores most people to even think about this stuff.   :-[

Lucas wanted everything a tidy ending at the end of ROTJ but that just doesn't jive to me, and never did.  Even as a kid, it never made any sense.  It was like Matt said.  Lucas showed in a flight suit with his flanneled bulge poking out, he called mission accomplished.  Nope.  :-\  Good for a movie ending.  Bad for a nerd to apply logic to.
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Offline Matt_Fury

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #546 on: August 21, 2014, 10:18 PM »
It seems like the circumstances regarding the Empire in EP7 are leaning towards either A) the Empire is resurgent B) never really went away and now exists in a state of Cold War with the Republic, such as it is or C) the war never really ended. I'm fine with either, but would prefer something along the lines of B. Lucas intended for the Empire to be defeated at the end of ROTJ, as he intended the film to be the last at various points. He also intended for there to be as many as 6 more films beyond Jedi at one point, so it's uncertain if the Empire had been truly defeated. As has been pointed here and elsewhere, the Empire suffers a major defeat at Endor, but not a fatal one. You can look to what's happening in the Middle East right now (to a certain extent) and elsewhere in history to see how this plays out.

The Empire, militarily and politically, remains intact post Endor. The Emperor dissolved the senate, placed command of the galaxy in the hands of regional governors, and supported them with oppressive military that is only slightly represented at Endor. The entire Rebel fleet is present at Endor and suffers more extensive losses, one assumes, than the Imperial Fleet did. That same Rebel fleet is unlikely to have completely liberated the galaxy from an Imperial war machine that is at 97% capacity. No doubt some systems reject the Empire and there is a popular uprising. No doubt the Empire responds. No doubt someone, one of those governors or as yet unknown character (Max Von Sydow?) steps into Palpatine's shoes. The Rebels and Empire settle into a decades battle of attrition that sees a fledging new repbulic constantly under assault by an Empire that is simply too large and too powerful to truly go away.

The only flaw with this is that the Emperor was using the dark side of the force to control as many people as he could.  He was influencing much of the Senate in AOTC and with the Jedi pretty much out of the way by the end of ROTS, his control was even more blatant.

With his death in ROTJ, the galaxy was freed from his control, hence the expanded ending scenes in the SE.  There may be pockets of ready to follow imperial loyalists out there, but I doubt there'd be many of them.

I like seeing some of the images that have leaked, but I'll avoid spoilers until I see it with my oldest next December.
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Offline Darby

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #547 on: August 21, 2014, 10:49 PM »
I enjoy thinking about the potential outcomes and strategies of what occured in the movies, especially now as it seems to be particularly relevant. It's possible there are other Rebel fleets, but in the films at least, there only seems to be any concern of the Empire - 'the' Rebel fleet massing near Sullust. Again it's inference it's the only one.

Palpatine uses the dark side to manipulate circumstances and people, but he doesn't create the corruption or atrophy the Republic exhibits  before its demise. He simply takes advantage of it. The same forces that allowed for its failure still exist during the Empire and one assumes after, and it's fear and brute force that keep any of it together. Absolutely the death of the Emperor and the lifting of that fear would result in what we see at the end of Jedi, and presumably elsewhere. But the Imperial machine still exists, and as we've seen in Egypt, Iraq and Libya, you can take out the dictator, but what follows is not always what you wanted or expected.

But until the lights dim in December of next year, it's all speculation.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #548 on: August 21, 2014, 11:36 PM »
I agree on the Emperor thing manipulating things, but I don't view him as "controlling large portions of the Senate" or anything.  Manipulating perhaps.  Ability to control an individual, perhaps.  Controlling who groups of people, like telepathically, to get his way?  Eh, I don't agree on that.  I'm with Darb on that, in that the Republic was inherently corrupt from the onset of our introduction to it in E1, on through really to the Imperial Senate of ANH which we only hear mentioned.  I think like all of politics, there's a pretty corrupt nature backing it with good people too, and people who are some of both.   :-X

Quote
'the' Rebel fleet massing near Sullust. Again it's inference it's the only one.

See I disagree with that inferring that there's only one.  I think it's pretty easy to take it either way, similarly to how everyone's called "Commander" but it doesn't denote a specific rank.  It could mean that indeed it's the only one, or it could mean it is just another one that's big enough to get attention.

For instance from the Empire's POV, someone could say, "The fleet has arrived, and will now blockade the Rebels from escaping the Death Star".  That's not the only Imperial Fleet it seems, but "The fleet" is still the appropriate thing to say.  It's an ambiguous thing to say, is I guess what I'm saying.

Likewise how would the Empire know the Alliance, who they're spread out trying to engage since at least the end of ANH, has this one fleet and that's all the ships they have to dub it "the (only) fleet"?  I think the more ambiguous use of the term is more likely then.

Not to say I don't think Lucas' intent was basically this is it, and this is all the Rebels can muster, and to save on models we'll paint 30 quasi-Mon Cal looking ships in background matte paintings, etc..  Like was said, it's the tidy movie ending scenario...  Tidy movie ending scenarios rarely make sense though, and I've always felt like there was more always going on...  From Yavin, to Hoth, to Endor, all the battles feel too small for the gigantic galactic nature of Star Wars. 

EU always backed that notion up but I don't view EU now any different than before.  Honestly I don't view anything Disney's doing as anything than just more EU at this point and Lucas has just bowed out and given up.

Let me also say, why would the Alliance put ALL their eggs in one basket, based on a strategy where their capital ships they're taking are playing a minor role in the mission?

First, what are the plans for those ships?  There are even non-combatant ships there which have unknown purpose (The Hoth Transports).  One theory is they're packed with explosives...  floating bombs.  There is at least one medical ship there which one may assume is relatively limited in armament, but why is it there? 

The fleet arrives at Endor, they're not surprised to show up and see nothing but a half-finished Death Star, and they just start flying towards it.  Again, what is the point of the Alliance fleet being there?  Why not just hyper ships in, let them do their thing, and leave, if you were expecting this?

I feel like the fleet the Alliance takes is there as a screen...  They'll park in an orbit away from the Death Star's range (supposed range), while the fighters go in.  They're likely holding reserve fighters back, ready to go when/if needed, to make sure this DS is destroyed, but they're maybe really only there to set up this basic blockade/screen of the area to make sure nothing gets away perhaps.

Obviously the Empire shows up with their own massive fleet, they pinch the Alliance between the DS and themselves, and "It's a Trap" and all that jazz.  But the Alliance fleet seems built for something other than a ship-to-ship battle taking place at this point.  It's almost like there are ships there for picking up survivors, evacuees, prisoners, extra fighter support, etc.

What it's NOT there to do, and we know this, is to A) engage the Empire's capital ship fleet, and B) engage a fully functional Death Star Super Laser (Bearing in mind Death Stars are also defensively designed against "large scale assault"...  so why try one?  The fighters sneaking in and out are the obvious only plan here).

So all that said, would the Alliance have committed their ENTIRE fleet to an engagement where A) they're not expecting ship-to-ship naval engagement outside of fighters, and B) they're not expecting to engage the Death Star itself in any role besides supporting the fighters going inside it to blow it up?

It seems to me the Alliance probably brought what they felt would get the job done, with a little extra umph for safety's sake, and it would've had its other fleets scattered around wherever they were before to avoid having all their eggs in one basket.

Just some thoughts...  Endor's also probably one of the more poorly thought-out battles in the OT too.  That doesn't help anything.  Yavin and Hoth were much more strategically sound battles it seemed.  ;D
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Offline Darby

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #549 on: August 22, 2014, 08:22 AM »
I agree there is some 'movie' logic at work in Jedi.  :)

Absolutely the Rebels, with the plan they had to destroy the Death Star, did not need their entire fleet, or an entire fleet. A small strike force would have sufficed as ultimately the squad led by Lando is what does in the DS. The shield generator is movie logic too, as placing it on the surface and not within the DS itself exposes a crucial security gap. This could be read as simply Imperial hubris or bureaucratic oversight, but still. So it's absolutely that Lucas wanted (and we wanted) the BIG BATTLE so we got the big battle. If the Rebels had extended their idea behind the capture of the Imperial Shuttle to say the capture of a Star Destroyers and its compliment of fighters, then that's a plan that makes more logical and practical sense. I love Jedi and the battle so I don't have huge problems with it, but it's clear from what behind the scenes stuff we've seen Lucas really, really wanted a planet of Ewoks and a Death Star and everything had to fit in from there. The infiltration of the shield generator was unnecessary when your ultimate aim is to launch an attack with the Rebel fleet, which can destroy the generator from orbit (Han destroys the entire forest anyways  ;D).

As for my own personal view of the rebels, and that's all it is, I always pictured the Rebels as very scattered and resource poor. What we see in the OT is them consolidating and marshaling their forces and for me, it is the combined rebel fleet at Endor, though I do agree it would make enormous sense for them to leave behind assets for continuity and support.

Offline Jeff

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #550 on: August 22, 2014, 10:15 AM »
Not to derail the Ep7 thread further, but...

The infiltration of the shield generator was unnecessary when your ultimate aim is to launch an attack with the Rebel fleet, which can destroy the generator from orbit (Han destroys the entire forest anyways

If the Rebel base at Hoth had an energy shield that was strong enough to deflect bombardment from a Star Destroyer (according to Veers in the film), I'm willing to buy that the Empire's main Death Star Shield Generator had an energy shield that was able to withstand bombardment from a Mon Cal cruiser. ;)


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Offline Nicklab

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #551 on: August 22, 2014, 01:00 PM »
More Episode VII rumors came out yesterday.  These pertain to the current state of the Empire as well as the Alliance.  For the most part it sounds like there's a lot of speculation going on. 

I'm left wondering if we're going to get any sort of a Behind the Scenes look from JJ Abrams at some point this year.  At least, other than the Force for Change videos.  There was a pretty steady stream of imagery from the Official Site during production of the PT.  But this new trilogy seems to be shrouded in a lot of secrecy.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 01:11 PM by Nicklab »
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Offline Darby

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #552 on: August 22, 2014, 01:41 PM »
Got me there.

Not to derail the Ep7 thread further, but...

The infiltration of the shield generator was unnecessary when your ultimate aim is to launch an attack with the Rebel fleet, which can destroy the generator from orbit (Han destroys the entire forest anyways

If the Rebel base at Hoth had an energy shield that was strong enough to deflect bombardment from a Star Destroyer (according to Veers in the film), I'm willing to buy that the Empire's main Death Star Shield Generator had an energy shield that was able to withstand bombardment from a Mon Cal cruiser. ;)

Offline Phrubruh

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #553 on: August 22, 2014, 03:05 PM »
That could be interesting to have an Imperial Civil War. Basically the Alliance and a good portion of the Empire join forces to defeat the old royal guard Imperials. That way you could still have stormtroopers. But this time we would see Stormtrooper on Stormtrooper action. This could all be resolved in the Good Empire becoming the New Republic.

Wasn't this basically covered in War of Purification or the Imperial Mutany?

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Civil_War
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 03:17 PM by Master_Phruby »
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Offline Matt_Fury

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Re: Star Wars Episode VII
« Reply #554 on: August 22, 2014, 10:06 PM »
I agree on the Emperor thing manipulating things, but I don't view him as "controlling large portions of the Senate" or anything.  Manipulating perhaps.  Ability to control an individual, perhaps.  Controlling who groups of people, like telepathically, to get his way?  Eh, I don't agree on that.  I'm with Darb on that, in that the Republic was inherently corrupt from the onset of our introduction to it in E1, on through really to the Imperial Senate of ANH which we only hear mentioned.  I think like all of politics, there's a pretty corrupt nature backing it with good people too, and people who are some of both.   :-X

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