Author Topic: Force Lightning  (Read 982 times)

Offline Master_Phruby

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Force Lightning
« on: November 13, 2012, 02:44 PM »
Why didn't Yoda teach Luke that little trick about catching force lightening? What would have happen if Luke caught that lightening and shot it back at the Emperor in ROTJ?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 12:07 PM by Scott »
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2012, 03:07 PM »
I'd think OWK should've taught him to catch it with a saber more than Yoda teaching him to absorb it as he did.  I'm thinking the Yoda thing is something Luke's maybe not up to, but why not the saber move?  Then again Luke gets beat up by flying boxes.  It was maybe a pretty hopeless situation and that's why they're both annoyed he left early.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2012, 10:40 PM »
Do we know that Luke doesn't know any tricks for dealing with the lightning?  Remember that he tossed his saber away.  The easy explanation is that he knew how to block it with the lightsaber, but didn't have it on him.  He doesn't have time to force-grab it once he's getting electrocuted, whether he knows how to stop it or not.   

The explanation I prefer is that Luke wanted to get electrocuted.  He tosses his saber away to show he won't fight his father, but he has to know that the Emperor is going to come after him at that point or send something at him.  What else is Palp going to do, surrender?  No, Luke knows the pain is coming.  He wants Vader to come back to the light and maybe he figures that isn't going to happen until Vader is forced to make a choice between the Dark Side and his son.  So he endures the force lightning because his suffering is the catalyst to Vader's salvation.
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Offline Nicklab

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2012, 11:12 PM »
We saw very little lightsaber training for Luke.  He had a couple of lightsaber training sessions with Obi-Wan Kenobi, but those were really the most basic of lessons.

And then there was Luke's training in TESB.  From the scenes that Luke has with Yoda there were no mentions at all of Force Lightning.  He also didn't pass the mirror test in the cave when confronted by the Dark Side vision of Vader.  Had Luke continued his training as Yoda requested and not gone to Cloud City to confront Vader, then perhaps he would have been able to teach him defenses against Dark Side powers.  But that seems to be a more advanced lesson.

Yoda did warn Luke in ROTJ.  He explicity stated "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emporer, or suffer your father's fate you will".  Palpatine comes across as a frail, old man.  But Yoda speaks from experience.  He fought the Emporer in ROTS, and he had a difficult time with Palpatine's Force Lighting.  He was knocked across the Emporer's office by a first blast.  And in the Senate chamber Palpatine hit Yoda with such an intense blast of Force Lightning that it knocked Yoda's lightsaber from his grasp.  Eventually he is able to handle the Force Lightning, but it proves difficult for even Yoda.  Only Mace Windu seemed to have the lightsaber skills necessary to withstand Palpatine's Force lightning.

As for Luke and the Force Lightning at the end of ROTJ?  I think he didn't see it coming.  He seemed to think that he had defeated Vader, and by refusing the Emporer he thought that he had defeated him and redeemed his father.  The Force Lightning attack by Palpatine was definitely the catalyst for Vader's redemption.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2012, 11:14 PM »
I could go either way with that I guess.  I think I'm sticking with him not knowing, but I can't say that explanation was illogical either.  I think that works fine as well.  I guess I like the idea that LUke didn't know what was coming at him and he was shocked (nyuck nyuck) to see just how powerful poopapappaPalpatine was.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 12:40 AM »
As for Luke and the Force Lightning at the end of ROTJ?  I think he didn't see it coming.  He seemed to think that he had defeated Vader, and by refusing the Emporer he thought that he had defeated him and redeemed his father.

So what do you think Luke's plan was when he tosses the lightsaber away?  He's not going to fight his father, Vader has not yet been redeemed and Palpatine obviously has control of the situation.  If he doesn't see the lightning attack coming, where did he think the confrontation was going to go?  I'm not sure that he knew about the lightning or how to stop it, but he had to think Palps was going to attack with something more than words.

I also don't think you can go by the limited amount of training we get to see in the film.  Luke trained with Yoda for at least a few weeks if not longer and we only see maybe 10-20 minutes of that tops.  They easily could have covered force lightning and defenses off screen.  As further proof, we see Luke use mind control in Jabba's palace, but we never see Yoda or Ben train Luke how to do that.  We know Luke built a new lightsaber too, which he must have learned from Ben or Yoda, but we don't see the training behind that on screen.  You have to think Luke was learning more than hiking and balancing rocks on his path to becomming a jedi.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 01:58 AM »
I agree, a lot, with the time-lapse stuff...  I think Luke's there maybe quite a long time, 3 weeks maybe being on the shorter end of what I think Luke's time might've been.  Likewise I think Han/Leia have a long big of space time too, traveling without a hyperdrive.

The movies, IMO, have always been absolutely horrible about showing time elapsed.  A lot of it has to do with the fact they all rarely change clothes, haha.  Like I view the trip from Tatooine to Alderaan taking a lot longer than the movie shows...  At the very least, hours, if not longer.  And the time between the Falcon's arrival and the Death Star's, to Yavin IV, and so on.

I always leave some personal intepretation there, for myself.  I figure there's more going on at the battles than we see, more going on between the location cuts in all 3 films, and so on.
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Offline McMetal

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 08:31 AM »
A more compelling question would be why do none of the Jedi use the force lightning? Where is it written that this can only be wielded by the Sith? Did I miss that chapter of the Jedi handbook?

It always bugs me that the Sith pull these crazy Force moves out of their arse, but the good guys' attacks are always completely predictable.

I really, really want to see some Jedi start using some of the Starkiller moves, particularly the throwing lightsaber attack and the Force-bubble-explosion thing. Maybe in the next movie.
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Offline Qui-Gon Jim

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 01:26 PM »
So what do you think Luke's plan was when he tosses the lightsaber away?  He's not going to fight his father, Vader has not yet been redeemed and Palpatine obviously has control of the situation.  If he doesn't see the lightning attack coming, where did he think the confrontation was going to go?  I'm not sure that he knew about the lightning or how to stop it, but he had to think Palps was going to attack with something more than words.

He was planning on being killed along with Palpatine when the rebels blew up the Death Star.

One of the biggest gripes I have with AotC and RotS is Sith Lightning.  How awesome would it be if this was a little trick that Palpy kept to himself until he was utterly backed against the wall?  It cheapens it in RotJ, IMO.

Offline JediJman

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 01:51 PM »

I thought he was aware of the trap before he threw down his saber.  So knowing the shield was operational, he still just gave up?  Doesn't seem like a Luke thing to do.  He may not have known about the lightning, but I think he was counting on being put in mortal peril to force Vader to make a choice.

As for the lightning, its an aggressive act.  Jedi are supposed to use their powers for defense, and I don't know if lightning would really fit that mantra.  It seems that it would source from aggression as we have seen in the movies, so to me it makes sense that the jedi would have to cross the line to use it.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 07:15 PM »
If you follow EU they basically say it's not a technique taught to Jedi for the above mentioned reasons, more or less, but anyone is able to basically learn it IIRC, but it dances close to the darkside to do so.  Windu supposedly walks a thin line between the light and dark, at times.
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Offline Nicklab

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2012, 05:48 PM »
Another reason why I think Yoda wouldn't have taught Luke about Force lightning?  It's very simple:  Anakin.  Yoda knows that Luke is Anakin's son.  And he openly expressed reservations of Obi-Wan's Force Spirit about training Luke, citing similarities between Luke and Anakin.  So with that in mind, why would he teach him about Dark Side powers when he's still a Jedi apprentice?  Why would he risk that when he saw the slaughter that Anakin led at the Jedi Temple?
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 06:03 PM »
Another reason why I think Yoda wouldn't have taught Luke about Force lightning?  It's very simple:  Anakin.  Yoda knows that Luke is Anakin's son.  And he openly expressed reservations of Obi-Wan's Force Spirit about training Luke, citing similarities between Luke and Anakin.  So with that in mind, why would he teach him about Dark Side powers when he's still a Jedi apprentice?  Why would he risk that when he saw the slaughter that Anakin led at the Jedi Temple?

I'm not sure I follow.  Do you think Yoda wouldn't have taught him in case it led Luke to the dark side?  He does tell Luke about the light and dark, so I don't know why any particular aspect of the force would be hush hush.  If Yoda was that fearful of Luke turning to the dark side, I think he would have pushed harder not to train Luke at all.  Yoda knows that Luke is their best hope to defeat the Emperor and Vader, so why wouldn't you tell your #1 guy about a defense against a secret weapon that could defeat him? 

Honestly, if you want to believe he doesn't know then I think a more likely scenario would be that Yoda just didn't get around to it because Luke simply left too soon.
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Offline Nicklab

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 06:15 PM »
Yoda has seen one Skywalker fall to the Dark Side, and with dire consequences.  He knows who he is training.  And he even asks the spirit of Obi-Wan if Luke will complete his training, suggesting that otherwise he may rush off an be tempted to somehow join his Sith father.

These reservations that Yoda may have about Luke, and the relatively brief time that he had to train him are the likely reasons why Yoda never trained him to defend himself against Force lightning.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Force lightening
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 09:40 PM »
These reservations that Yoda may have about Luke, and the relatively brief time that he had to train him are the likely reasons why Yoda never trained him to defend himself against Force lightning.

I still don't see what defending yourself against force lightning has to do with the dark side.  I didn't get the impression that Mace using his saber or Yoda using his hand to repel the force lightning caused them to tap into dark energies.  How would telling Luke about it and showing him how to defend against it lead him to the dark side?

Luke: Is the dark side stronger?
Yoda: No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive.
Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad?
Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, NEVER for attack.

Yoda is very clear about using powers for defense and distinguishing between using the force for good or evil.  Given his dialogue, he could very easily follow the above with "by the way, the Emperor seems old and weak but he can shoot lightning out his fingertips."  Whether he did so or not, I don't see any reason to purposely hide it from Luke or any way that drives Luke to the dark.

Now, I can totally see where Yoda just didn't get to it because Luke left too soon or he prioritized other aspects of the training over the force lightning defense or Luke just isn't strong enough in the force yet to handle it, so he doesn't even go there.  In fact, the more I think about it I wonder if Yoda even thought Luke would be confronting the Emperor.  He seems to be preparing him to face Vader and maybe he figured if Luke survived that, then he and Obi could further instruct Luke on how to handle the Emperor. 
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