Author Topic: Disney to Purge Select EU  (Read 2034 times)

Offline EdSolo

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2014, 02:51 PM »
Was the Tartakovsky series specifically mentioned as being out? I assumed that would be included in the "canon" media along with the 3D animated series.

Thinking back, there is really nothing in there to contradict anything else that is likely to be covered. Even Durge can easily be dovetailed into the existing continuity.

Some of that stuff, particularly the lead-in to ROTS, is fairly noteworthy, it seems to me.

Tartakovsky series is out by virtue of it not being mentioned as being in.  The problem with the Clone Wars series as a whole in terms of continuity is that it stepped on much of what was already out there in terms of novels, comics and the Tartakovsky series.  Lucasfilm, pre Disney buy-out, was waiting for the end of the Clone Wars series to try to fit everything together.  I believe a major problem was when Anakin was knighted.  The Tartakovsky series makes it look like it was at least a year or more into the Clone Wars.  The new series seems to have it occur not too long after Geonosis.

The other major item from Tartakovsky would be Bariss Offee.  Season 5 of the Clone Wars had made her seem to be a contemporary of Ashoka.  Tartakovsky and other EU sources made her to be a contemporary of Anakin.

For the most part, it could be relatively easy to integrate since I believe it was only two hours of material.  I especially enjoyed the portrayal of Greivous, especially the reason for his cough.  However, ROTS Greivous was a pale comparison to what we saw in the Tartakovsky series.  Additionally, he has the cough throughout the Clone Wars series which is in-line with his ROTS appearance.  If the Clone Wars series was allowed to continue, I think we may have seen an episode that would have essentially retread the Palpatine abduction, which was also covered different in the Labyrinth of Evil novel.

Offline Greg

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2014, 03:38 PM »
Also as a "real world" explanation they took the Tartakovsky series out of production at some point prior to TCW 2008 hitting the air. That could have been to avoid confusion or a disowning or a mix of both.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 03:38 PM by Greg »

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2014, 04:44 PM »
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I believe everyone is missing the point here.  The announcement has said there is no more EU.  There is canon and there is Legends.  Essentially everything we have seen as the EU is now Legends.  Canon now consists of the films, CW TV series, Rebels TV series, the upcoming Darth Maul comic and everything else coming forward, essentially starting in 2015.  Everything else is dead and gone.

Actually, I don't think you're totally seeing the point Ed, but I'm actually not even disagreeing with some of what you're saying totally, but feel you're reading way too much into this statement on the matter. 

EU was NEVER canon, and that's my point.  There was NEVER a hierarchy to it...  It was always what Lucas said, and the rest was bunk if he decided.  LFL was pretty clear on this, as was Lucas himself. 

LFL officially called the EU "The Official Continuity" (Been over this a billion times, so if anyone disagrees it's on you to google this yourself...  It's everywhere), which encompassed anything outside the films.  They tried to crowbar it all together unless it contradicted the established canon of the time...  IE: the films and what Lucas was saying "This is, and this isn't" himself.

You think they did a good job, I think they were cash grabbing with a ton of EU and were stepping all over each other.  Sometimes little stuff, sometimes bigger stuff.  I found half of the EU pretty ****** though, personally...  It's neither here nor there though, as EU is what it always was, and appears to still be the same now.

You can call it "Legends", "Old Stories That May Not Be True", "Lucas Era EU", whatever... But that still means it's just EU as EU always was...  It's there, but as the official statement said, they'll draw elements from it, and all the future stuff going forward CAN draw from it possibly (I assume they'll have a bit more of a tight control on it than LFL did however), and this stuff can all be overwritten at any time because they (Disney) don't want painted into a corner creatively because that's what seemingly half of existing EU would do to them.  Makes sense, and tough to argue with.  Disney paid billions, and doesn't want hamstrung by stories they don't want to make into movies, etc.  They want to make their OWN money.

There is nothing in that press release though saying, "______ is 'out' now" or anything like that...  It's obvious though much will be overwritten going forward.  But not yet.  Looking at where they're starting Episode VII timeline wise, for example, The Truce At Bakura may be a story that totally fits, and as such, it's still a story I think fans of it (all 3) could say "Well that fits so I still consider it part of the universe, blah blah blah".  Personally I think it's a bad story, so I never considered it part of my Star Wars world, but whatever.

Canon has expanded now, going forward, which to me is the far larger headline in that story...  Canon was never anything but the films, now it's much, much more.  That's the thing I'd say I am not a fan of seeing happen.  Who wants ****** stories shoveled down their throat?  There has been so much BAD Star Wars written since the early 90's that it was appreciated that EU could basically be ignored by any fan as part of "their Star Wars" experience...  as if rules about discussing a fictional universe are something normal people would want to deal with anyway.  ::)

I think the outbursts that "EU is purged!  EU is dead!", and so on, are really exaggerated though.  It should be "Canon is Expanding and May Overwrite Your Favorite EU Story".  EU being called Legends doesn't really change it at all from what it already was though... Something that wasn't canon, just part of what LFL called the "Official Continuity" (Leeland Chee's words)...  It's still something that if it fits great for the people who liked it I suppose.  And if not, it's kaput (and that's a now evolving and growing thing).  It'll be interesting to see what elements they carry over, what they drop. 

Obviously a lot is on the way out though.  NJO looks pretty much on the chopping block entirely right now.

Like the press release said though, elements of the EU will be available to anyone developing new stuff, so who knows what good things people liked could turn up.  I like that Filoni has an affinity for the old RPG material because I do too, and he's putting a bit of that into Rebels (already).  It's now a new, ever-changing world.  Star Wars hasn't been that way for a while, so it's at least interesting if nothing else.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2014, 04:50 PM »
BTW on the Tartakovsky thing, it was made to fit to the events of ROTS...  I don't see how the 2D cartoon doesn't fit within the storyline, so for my money it's something I enjoyed so I still consider it a major part of Star Wars.  I don't think the show conflicting with the release of the 3D one had any issue though. 

I thought the Tartakovsky cartoon ended simply because it was done.  They closed with the "end" of the Clone Wars, more or less right into ROTS.  I could be wrong as I don't recall when it even came out though.  I thought 3D came out a good while after 2D was out.  There's 3 years for the Clone Wars to take place though, and plenty of time for those short toons to squeeze into that timeline easily, to me. 
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Offline Greg

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2014, 05:10 PM »
BTW on the Tartakovsky thing, it was made to fit to the events of ROTS...  I don't see how the 2D cartoon doesn't fit within the storyline, so for my money it's something I enjoyed so I still consider it a major part of Star Wars.  I don't think the show conflicting with the release of the 3D one had any issue though. 

I thought the Tartakovsky cartoon ended simply because it was done.  They closed with the "end" of the Clone Wars, more or less right into ROTS.  I could be wrong as I don't recall when it even came out though.  I thought 3D came out a good while after 2D was out.  There's 3 years for the Clone Wars to take place though, and plenty of time for those short toons to squeeze into that timeline easily, to me.

Based only on what we ended up with from the 6 seasons of The Clone Wars, I think in terms of in-universe timelines and such it could be made to work with the micro series. The only big issues that stand out to me at the moment are Grievous' cough, which he has throughout the TCW series yet it is caused in the final episode of the micro series, and possibly the two Battles of Mon Calamari. We really needed to see what TCW would have done for the Battle of Coruscant/pre-ROTS to know for sure if it would have contradicted the micro series.

Neither cartoon series really jived with the other EU (comics and novels), so in that regard it might be nice if The Clone Wars is the only super-duper official canon for that time period. No worrying about Alpha, Durge, Ventress' origins, Labyrinth of Evil/micro series Battle of Coruscant, Mandalorians, 2 Kamino or Mon Calamari battles, or Barriss Offee issues.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2014, 05:15 PM »
The two Mon Cal battles, I think those are fine...  One early, one late (judging by the armor changes)...  To me those still fit well enough.

I never read the comics much for TCW era really.  I assume elements fit, and others don't.  That's fine.

Frankly I liked Grievous' cough origins in Tartakovsky's toon far better than what Lucas came up with, haha.  I say he just has allergies in the 3-year toon and is always coughing and sneezing.  Poor guy.  He's allergic to f'n up all the time I guess.

Then he finally becomes cool and badass, and someone crushes his chest so his chronic cough is back.  Poor guy can't win.
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Offline P-Siddy

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2014, 07:05 PM »
It's too bad those 'soda-pop/school lunch episodes of The Clone Wars are considered canon.  :P

Also, a lot of people say the Thrawn Trilogy would be cool if made into movies.  I was thinking of this (it's been a while since I've read it so I could be mistaken) and there's a plotline that would be a problem... when Han finds that Stormtroopers are clones (or clones are still being made).  Why would this be a shock since you'd think everyone in the Republic/Empire would have known that since the clone wars happened?

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2014, 08:41 PM »
Eh, who cares?  I just got done expressing my opinion that half of what Lucas thought was a good idea was ****, so why worry right?  Just ignore the school lunch episodes, I say.  Piss on the whole "canon" thing all together.

In the HTTE thing, and it's been a while so I may be long, but Clones were long out of circulation if I recall, and Thrawn & Co. restarted Cloning in some emergency Clone facilities Poopa Pappa Palpatine kept handy to crank out some troops in an emergency. 

They seemed kind of retarded though, and not like Jango Clones (of course, that was all pre-Jango era anyway so obviously they weren't based on that), and not even something people could sense with the force.  I picture these creepy things without hair or orifices.  Just creepy body snatchers type stuff.  :-\

I loved HTTE...  Loved how Thrawn got a build-up in TIE Fighter then, and SW Insider did a bitching who's who of all the Grand Admirals...  Always wondered about Grand Moffs or Generals then, and how many there were.  Cool stuff.

C'Boath was the only thing I really didn't like about HTTE...  I thought that was kind of dumb.  I was kind of glad we never got his figure, but the cancellation of that Noghri/Wookiee set was blasphemy to me, and now since Hasbro's been diverted from doing EU stuff that just eats it bigtime. :(

However...  Makes one wonder if Hasbro won't be making figures based on all this new material coming out?  Rebels aside since it's obviously coming, but comics, games, novels upcoming?  I'm interested.
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Offline I Am Sith

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2014, 08:42 PM »
They were shocked because Thrawn was able to make clones in a matter of months versus taking years.  It had to do with the use of the ysalamiri and the fact that they could block the force.  I read this series to my 9 year old last year and he loved it.  When they announced EP7-9 were being made, the first thing he asked was if they were making the Thrawn series...

Considering that Disney are saying they need to purge parts to help the creativity of the writers for the movies, I take that to mean that they could purge parts of the timeline and not necessarily all of the characters.  I think it would be cool if they could still have Thrawn as a character.  But, instead of Han, Luke and Leia being the 'action' heroes that fight against Thrawn, they could be the strategists like Bel Iblis and Mon Montha and their offspring or Jedi apprentices could be the ones actually fighting and doing all the action sequences.
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2014, 09:05 PM »
EU was NEVER canon, and that's my point.  There was NEVER a hierarchy to it...  It was always what Lucas said, and the rest was bunk if he decided.  LFL was pretty clear on this, as was Lucas himself. 

Agree.  Whether you call it "Expanded Universe" or "Legends" it's all still just a bunch of stuff that might have happened to the Star Wars characters until a movie or TV show overrode it. 

For me personally, I don't really care if ALL expanded universe is immediately Star Wars Legends or just post-ROTJ or whatever.  At the end of the day, I'm still going to see the EU as the "real" Star Wars continuity until something over-rides it.

So, even though the marriage of Han and Leia and the Anakin, Jacen, and Jaina that resulted from it is now immediately "Legends", it's still the post-ROTJ story of Han Solo until I have something else.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2014, 09:08 PM »
Hoojibs...  They're real.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2014, 09:13 PM »
BTW just to prove a portion of my point further... 

In the Rebels news with the new hi-res images, there are Wookiee prisoners in the background in chains...  Wookiee slaves?  More EU becoming Legends becoming canon?  Looks like it may be.
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Offline Jeff

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2014, 09:13 PM »
Hoojibs...  They're real.

And they're spectacular.
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Offline EdSolo

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2014, 07:30 AM »
Quote
I believe everyone is missing the point here.  The announcement has said there is no more EU.  There is canon and there is Legends.  Essentially everything we have seen as the EU is now Legends.  Canon now consists of the films, CW TV series, Rebels TV series, the upcoming Darth Maul comic and everything else coming forward, essentially starting in 2015.  Everything else is dead and gone.

Actually, I don't think you're totally seeing the point Ed, but I'm actually not even disagreeing with some of what you're saying totally, but feel you're reading way too much into this statement on the matter. 

EU was NEVER canon, and that's my point.  There was NEVER a hierarchy to it...  It was always what Lucas said, and the rest was bunk if he decided.  LFL was pretty clear on this, as was Lucas himself. 

LFL officially called the EU "The Official Continuity" (Been over this a billion times, so if anyone disagrees it's on you to google this yourself...  It's everywhere), which encompassed anything outside the films.  They tried to crowbar it all together unless it contradicted the established canon of the time...  IE: the films and what Lucas was saying "This is, and this isn't" himself.

You think they did a good job, I think they were cash grabbing with a ton of EU and were stepping all over each other.  Sometimes little stuff, sometimes bigger stuff.  I found half of the EU pretty ****** though, personally...  It's neither here nor there though, as EU is what it always was, and appears to still be the same now.

You can call it "Legends", "Old Stories That May Not Be True", "Lucas Era EU", whatever... But that still means it's just EU as EU always was...  It's there, but as the official statement said, they'll draw elements from it, and all the future stuff going forward CAN draw from it possibly (I assume they'll have a bit more of a tight control on it than LFL did however), and this stuff can all be overwritten at any time because they (Disney) don't want painted into a corner creatively because that's what seemingly half of existing EU would do to them.  Makes sense, and tough to argue with.  Disney paid billions, and doesn't want hamstrung by stories they don't want to make into movies, etc.  They want to make their OWN money.

There is nothing in that press release though saying, "______ is 'out' now" or anything like that...  It's obvious though much will be overwritten going forward.  But not yet.  Looking at where they're starting Episode VII timeline wise, for example, The Truce At Bakura may be a story that totally fits, and as such, it's still a story I think fans of it (all 3) could say "Well that fits so I still consider it part of the universe, blah blah blah".  Personally I think it's a bad story, so I never considered it part of my Star Wars world, but whatever.

Canon has expanded now, going forward, which to me is the far larger headline in that story...  Canon was never anything but the films, now it's much, much more.  That's the thing I'd say I am not a fan of seeing happen.  Who wants ****** stories shoveled down their throat?  There has been so much BAD Star Wars written since the early 90's that it was appreciated that EU could basically be ignored by any fan as part of "their Star Wars" experience...  as if rules about discussing a fictional universe are something normal people would want to deal with anyway.  ::)

I think the outbursts that "EU is purged!  EU is dead!", and so on, are really exaggerated though.  It should be "Canon is Expanding and May Overwrite Your Favorite EU Story".  EU being called Legends doesn't really change it at all from what it already was though... Something that wasn't canon, just part of what LFL called the "Official Continuity" (Leeland Chee's words)...  It's still something that if it fits great for the people who liked it I suppose.  And if not, it's kaput (and that's a now evolving and growing thing).  It'll be interesting to see what elements they carry over, what they drop. 

Obviously a lot is on the way out though.  NJO looks pretty much on the chopping block entirely right now.

Like the press release said though, elements of the EU will be available to anyone developing new stuff, so who knows what good things people liked could turn up.  I like that Filoni has an affinity for the old RPG material because I do too, and he's putting a bit of that into Rebels (already).  It's now a new, ever-changing world.  Star Wars hasn't been that way for a while, so it's at least interesting if nothing else.

I believe Leeland Chee would disagree with you.  As I stated before, Lucas had always said that he could rewrite anything he wanted to.  In 2000 Lucasfilm hired Leland Chee to oversee Star Wars continuity.  At this point, different levels of canon were created.  There was G, C, S and N canon.  T canon was added with the Clone Wars series. 

G - George Lucas canon - this is the movies and anything stated by Lucas.
T- Television canon - at the time it included the Clone Wars series from Cartoon network and was to include the "live action series" that never materialized.
C - Continuity canon - this is the bulk of the old EU.  Novels, games, comics, etc.  This is where most timeline/continuity errors would occur.
S - Secondary canon - this is where they dumped stuff that didn't fit, like older pre-2000 novels and such.
N - Non canon - items like the infinities comics series, alternate paths in video games, and deleted scenes in movies that would contradict what happened in the actual film.

I never stated that everything in the EU was canon, but that there were levels as set out by Lucasfilm which could be contradicted at any point by Lucas or Lucasfilm.  The Clone Wars series did that several times.

What the announcement does mean, like it or not, is that the old EU is now considered Legends and the above levels of canon are essentially gone.  Going forward is would be canon (which would combine G, T, and C levels of old) and Legends (which would combine S and N and dump the old C level stuff here).  Items from Legends can be used and elevated to canon, but until they are, they are just stories.  I don't think we are going to see much of that, especially with post ROTJ era stories.  Characters like the Solo kids, Mara Jade, and the young Jedi Knights are most likely gone.

A lot of what you stated about Disney and canon going forward is what I stated in my previous post.  While I have enjoyed the EU as a whole over the years, I do like the idea of everything actually counting going forward.  I generally don't like retcons that were required to explain contradictions.  The Clone Wars were a separate mess that Leeland Chee had stated that they were waiting until after the series ended to attempt to make everything fit, which is now a moot point.

Offline jediraven82

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Re: Disney to Purge Select EU
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2014, 10:25 AM »
I picked a really good time to re-read the Thrawn trilogy...

Oh well, as long as they don't come out and specifically say KOTOR never happened I won't be too upset.  Speaking of, the head of Xbox said he'd love to see KOTOR re-released on the Xbox One(I assume the One anyway).  I wonder if Disney would even allow that now.