Author Topic: Rogue One (SPOILERS)  (Read 141200 times)

Offline JediJman

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #135 on: May 31, 2016, 12:29 PM »
Yes, but what about the laser cannons and turrets?  Those were like slinging stones at the walkers too.  I get that the speeders were being adapted to the cold and fighters were useless, so that leaves the ground attack (besides orbital) as the only option.

My only guess is that the rebels worked in cells, Leia's cell heard about walkers but never faced them, whereas Mon Mothma's might.  Therefore those laser turrets were untested against the might of the AT-ATs.

I don't subscribe to the notion that the rebels had never seen walkers before.  That was maybe the intent whenEmpire first came out, but given all the surrounding material now, I would have a hard time thinking that was the first use of them.  No one ever says anything along the lines of "What are those?" in the movie, and it's very possible that the rebels thought walkers wouldn't work in the snow, similar to the ships.  They were probably set up to defend against ground troops, which the turrets would have worked well on.  Its not like they had any options once the walkers showed up, and there were still ground troops and chicken walkers to target.
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Offline Pete_Fett

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #136 on: May 31, 2016, 01:28 PM »
Isn't there also comm chatter from inside Echo Base that can be heard when R2 is rolling through one of the corridors that says, "Imperial Walkers have been spotted on the North Ridge".

Wouldn't that line right there seem to imply that the Rebels have seen them before and know what they are or at least have internal nomenclature for what to call them?

Like Justin said, it's not like the line says "What the heck are these big four legged walking things? Let's all start to panic! Ahhhhh!!!!!!"

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Offline P-Siddy

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #137 on: May 31, 2016, 01:51 PM »
I know the Imperial Walkers line.  My point was that terrorist groups work in cells, so while they have knowledge of walkers they might not know how to defeat them.  Of course, the AT might be the ACTs superior and they've never faced it.  Maybe the laser turrets work on the ACT?  I mean, the Rebels had time to construct an ion cannon.

I just don't want the Rebels blowing up ACTs so easily in Rogue One otherwise it appears our band of Rebels really is pathetic when it comes to Hoth.

But we're just debating the plot holes of a sci-fi movie now.  ;)

Offline McMetal

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #138 on: May 31, 2016, 02:24 PM »
We should probably be more concerned about the FOUR WEEKS of re-shoots Disney bosses allegedly just ordered after this movie tested so badly...yikes.

Also surprised to read both Mara sisters were in the running for the lead role.  Kate would have been the bomb I think...
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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #139 on: May 31, 2016, 02:34 PM »
My only guess is that the rebels worked in cells, Leia's cell heard about walkers but never faced them, whereas Mon Mothma's might.

Pretty sure Leia saw AT-ATs before (see: Star Wars Rebels episode: A Princess on Lothal).   :D
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Offline Dave

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #140 on: May 31, 2016, 03:05 PM »
My only guess is that the rebels worked in cells, Leia's cell heard about walkers but never faced them, whereas Mon Mothma's might.

Pretty sure Leia saw AT-ATs before (see: Star Wars Rebels episode: A Princess on Lothal).   :D

Or the fact that an AT-AT isn't fundamentally different from an AT-TE from the Clone Wars. 

I'm guessing we're not supposed to overthink any of this as X-Wings work in the absolute zero of space, and they work in normal atmospheres, so there shouldn't have been anything different about Hoth that would have prevented them from attacking an AT-AT.  And if a squad of X-Wings can take out a Star Destroyer than I would think they could take out an AT-AT.

Offline JediJman

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #141 on: May 31, 2016, 05:38 PM »
I'm guessing we're not supposed to overthink any of this as X-Wings work in the absolute zero of space, and they work in normal atmospheres, so there shouldn't have been anything different about Hoth that would have prevented them from attacking an AT-AT.  And if a squad of X-Wings can take out a Star Destroyer than I would think they could take out an AT-AT.

I don't pretend to know anything about how Star Wars vehicles work, but it might be an element of atmosphere & cold, or humidity & cold versus just the temperature itself.  I recall reading something about how high humidity can affect aircraft versus flying through dry air.  Hoth is cold, so maybe not all that humid, but there's obviously plenty of water and wind and gravity unlike space.  Luke's X-Wing seems to struggle with the humidity and fog on Dagobah, so I'm willing to take a leap of faith that the X-Wings and other ships just didn't work as well in certain environments.
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Offline Pete_Fett

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #142 on: May 31, 2016, 05:39 PM »
We should probably be more concerned about the FOUR WEEKS of re-shoots Disney bosses allegedly just ordered after this movie tested so badly...yikes.

Also surprised to read both Mara sisters were in the running for the lead role.  Kate would have been the bomb I think...

Keep in mind that re-shoots are normal and hardly mean the movie stinks and that the four weeks number could literally be tied to logistical schedules of location of the shoots and or available cast members. Plus, the Daily Mirror, who is the UK news outlet that reported the story is essentially on the same level as The National Enquirer here in the US....
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #143 on: May 31, 2016, 06:03 PM »
Also surprised to read both Mara sisters were in the running for the lead role.  Kate would have been the bomb I think...

So glad they didn't go in this direction.  I really didn't like her in FF and can't see her as anyone other than Zoe Barnes after House of Cards...
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Offline Scockery

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #144 on: May 31, 2016, 08:41 PM »
We should probably be more concerned about the FOUR WEEKS of re-shoots Disney bosses allegedly just ordered after this movie tested so badly...yikes.

Also surprised to read both Mara sisters were in the running for the lead role.  Kate would have been the bomb I think...

They have to film interaction shots for the new CGI sidekick they are adding to make the film family-friendly.  ;)

Maybe Meebur Gascon will be added?  :o

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #145 on: May 31, 2016, 09:33 PM »
My read on that was that the speeders couldn't take them down.  I thought perhaps an X-wing or Y-wing could do it, but they needed the X-wings to escort the transports.  Never saw a Y-wing on Hoth.

The "armor is too strong for blasters", to me, was always another one of those "true from a certain POV" things...  They had finite time to bring them down before they reached the shield generator, took it down, and then essentially all hell would break loose.  So I've looked at it, and EU always sorta supported this, that blasters CAN take out the AT-AT's, if you hit them repeatedly at points, have a stronger blaster/weapon, or hit it at weaker spots that are difficult to hit in general...  Like I say, EU always supported that, and it makes sense, but the AT-AT's weren't slow (Someone measured their speed on film once, and they're shockingly fast, and nimble too).  The one that stomps Luke's speeder is on him like stink on poop pretty quickly, and was a good distance away at first.

So basically once the AT-AT's/etc. stomp on through the shield (if shielding technology works like that, in that repulsors cannot pass shields, but items can "roll" through or walk through them), it was a race to see how much crap you can get off the planet...  That jives with Luke's 2-1B conversation too, in that he said not to worry about this or that, they just needed to get the main stuff off planet.

Also, the planet was JUST set up...  Did they have time to get all their main weapons emplacements up and running?  Would they have had a better defensive set-up given more time?  Who knows really, all conjecture, but again EU stuff kind of implied a siege of Yavin took some time whereas a siege of Hoth was much quicker.

Regarding starfighters, I think they were more worried about the transports/personnel escaping, so starfighters (which seemed to be stretched thin), had a different duty.  I wouldn't think cold would impact them...  I mean, Hoth's cold sure, but is Hoth colder than outer space?  I can't buy into that then, that a fighter can't take the cold.  Hell, it gets so cold in upper atmospheres you have to have special suits to survive, but on Hoth they're just wearing their Columbia gear.  Luke's XWing on Dagobah I always just chalked that up to Dagobah kind of being a weirdly mystical force-y kind of place, and never thought much of it being humidity or whatnot.  Not to say that's wrong or anything, I just always figured it was part of Yoda's way of staying hidden and the planet having the cave, and all those unanswered questions surrounding Dagobah.  Yavin's a rain forest afterall, pretty humid too and stuff.  But that's just my point of view on it.

But back to Hoth, if fighters are stretched thin, and your goal is survival of the personnel and main equipment, your fighters will get the job of protection (2 per transport, and less as things got worse).  The Speeders just had to slow down the walkers and hope they buy enough time, which they seem to.   I'm guessing the fighters being sent with the transports is because, again, time is limited, they know they can't repel the attack with what they have (regardless if they have fighters come in and take out AT-AT's more efficiently...  more will be on the way), and eventually they'll just get encircled and entrapped.  It's a no-win situation where the only positive is escape of as many as possible.

I've always also felt that, with the shield not being planet-wide, but rather just a relatively small surface area of Hoth that encompasses the base itself, the Speeders, with their tighter maneuverability and such, would operate better inside the shield itself, whereas X-Wings and Y-Wings, etc., don't turn as tight (that was always the Speeder's "advantage" in EU stuff...  They're unshielded and not terribly well armed, but were tough despite this, and were highly maneuverable, more so than TIE's even which generally outperformed Rebel fighters overall).

I also seem to recall something that the Rebel fighter maneuverability is also "hampered" a bit in atmosphere compared to space, though it seemed like it wasn't a huge difference, but a reason they invested in airspeeders (plus they're less expensive).  However, Imperial fighters tended to perform better in atmosphere, and thus they didn't put much stock in airspeeders as a weapon they'd need as much.

I totally see the POV though, that the Rebels never encountered AT-AT's, by the dialogue...  This is like everything else in the films where you can take a very different POV of how Star Wars is/works if you ONLY look at it from the film POV.  In that sense, the Rebels are a tiny force, EVERYTHING they have is at Endor, they rarely willingly engage the Empire, and so on.  It's a really different way of looking at things and just as valid a POV on it. 

Another question...  Are the Rebels working in "Cells" by the point of ESB or are they much more of a cohesive military?  I think, even during the SW Rebels era, they're a cohesive military core, but still with cells coming into the fold eventually.  Thus they seem to have a military structure overall, but then you have other militias, etc.  I like to think of the Alliance as the US military in the Revolution...  There's the continental army, or the "core", and then you have the militia, guerilla forces, and other groups, who share the same cause, but aren't absorbed into the core...  Or for a different era, the NVA, and the "Viet Cong" which was comprised of a lot of other forces, during the Vietnam War.

Another interesting thing to think about, regarding the AT-AT's and their seemingly strong armor...  If they're impervious to the blaster fire, why not make EVERYTHING out of that?  Or is it that they're just impervious to weaker blaster fire?  Or that they can be hit in spots, and taken down, but it takes longer than the Alliance had at Hoth, given their defensive situation and lack of prep?  If AT-AT's were so strong they couldn't be taken out by blasters, at all, why not make EVERYTHING out of that kind of armor?  Or are they just really tough and it takes the right shot, in the right situation, or having the exactly right weapon(s)?

Regarding the AT-ACT/AT-AT...  Like I say, I think they're just different models for different reasons...  Like a Jagdtiger to a Tiger to a Sturmtiger...  Same chassis, all 3 different uses, strengths, and weaknesses, to put a real world spin on it.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 09:38 PM by Jesse James »
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Offline CHEWIE

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #146 on: June 15, 2016, 03:28 PM »
I always wondered why Luke didn't just run up behind each walker and cut their legs out from under them with his lightsaber when I was a kid. 

On any note, I think the fun in most of this is, and always has been, using one's own imagination to rationalize why "this or that" was done.  A lot of it really just comes down to "it looks cool and the audience will love it."

Kinda like Stormtroopers riding Dewbacks while searching for droids... kinda silly, but they sure does look awesome.

Offline JediJman

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #147 on: June 15, 2016, 04:09 PM »
I thought that too with the walkers, but then when I saw how slowly lightsabers cut through armor in the prequels I figured that would be like trying to slice off the legs with a blowtorch.  They wouldn't stand still long enough for you to cut them, and if you're riding the foot while cutting the leg, you stand the risk of the thing falling on you.  Fan rationalizing I know...
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Offline Matt_Fury

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #148 on: June 15, 2016, 04:39 PM »
I always wondered why Luke didn't just run up behind each walker and cut their legs out from under them with his lightsaber when I was a kid. 

It would have blown the FX budget.   :D
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Offline McMetal

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Re: Rogue One (SPOILERS)
« Reply #149 on: June 22, 2016, 02:25 PM »
Yes! Yes! YES!

Forest Whitaker is playing SAW GERRERA.  :D

Thank you, Clone Wars synergy!
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