Author Topic: Toy Tony carded figures.  (Read 183 times)

Offline solrac

  • Jedi Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 452
  • fett-ish
    • View Profile
    • bounties
Toy Tony carded figures.
« on: August 23, 2014, 12:38 AM »
Anyone keeping up with this? any comments. This is crazy stuff man I only heard about this by researching an e-bay listing saying it could be a Toy Tony but  nothing else so I did a search on Mr. Palitoy's site and that blew my mind that this could happen. I have a figure that falls into the ones in question and it's kinda scary that some people are paying top dollar for AFA graded figures on this list.
He's no good to me open

Offline Rob

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Council Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20594
    • View Profile
    • Vitamin
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2014, 08:24 PM »
I read a very very long thread at Rebelscum about it maybe 3 months ago?  At that point it was a bunch of connecting the dots, everyone was pretty sure that what they suspected was actually what happened, but there was nothing criminal in the works at that point.

Are there new developments?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 08:25 PM by Rob »

Offline solrac

  • Jedi Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 452
  • fett-ish
    • View Profile
    • bounties
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2014, 08:46 PM »
There were a few sites that RS kept referring to, way to much to read. I was just hoping someone here had a break down of the facts.
He's no good to me open

Offline DSJ™

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Council Member
  • *
  • Posts: 22169
  • Bouncy! Bouncy! I'm An Insane Kubrickaholic!™
    • View Profile
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2014, 09:36 PM »
A ton of us have read it all, yes it's a headache to read but has to be done.

The General Mills 45 back & Palitoy "non factory sealed" debate

Remember the Fett I picked up at Celebration...  :-\



All I can say is...



That was small potatoes compared to what others have spent...  & AFA can SUCK BALLS!

Offline Rob

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Council Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20594
    • View Profile
    • Vitamin
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2014, 10:27 PM »
If this guy really committed fraud on this level, possibly for hundreds of thousands of dollars, has anyone filed a complaint with police?  I'm shocked that there isn't some kind of criminal investigation?

All of this underscores why I don't collect carded vintage.  There was no discernible difference between his fakes and the real deal besides the air in the sealed bubble...  And even authentic carded figures are too expensive a risk considering that eventually all those bubbles are coming off of those 35 year old cardbacks someday anyway as the glue ages and fails.

Offline McMetal

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2014, 09:47 PM »
Yes, it was a pretty deplorable yet fascinating debacle to watch as it unfolded. I eventually gave up and stopped paying attention...mostly because I am not a carded collector, but also because some of the opinions that started to come out in that thread were pretty appalling IMO. (Like the mindset that these fakes were "essentially as good" as real ones since they used all the same vintage cards and bubbles, and the idea that somehow AFA was not liable for their gross negligence in not identifying these as clear fakes when they had multiple opportunities to do so)

Those things are worthless IMO and I really feel badly for anyone who lost money on them. And I agree AFA can suck it, I don't see how anyone can take them seriously after such a string of recurring blunders.
Slice you open like a tauntaun, faster than the Autobahn,
Or a motorbike in Tron, do the deed and then I'm gone.

Offline EdSolo

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3184
    • View Profile
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2014, 06:53 AM »
I have not read much on this topic.  How easy would it be to spot one of these fakes?  Is the card stock different than a vintage figure?  Not to defend AFA, but if this guy had a mint condition loose Fett and the bubbles and card stock were the same materials as vintage figures, I would think it might be difficult to spot one of these fakes.

Offline McMetal

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2014, 08:40 AM »
His technique for sealing the bubbles to the card improved over time, but the earlier efforts should have been easy to spot from the visible iron marks around the edges of the bubble. Yes, he actually used an iron to heat seal the bubbles to the cards.  ::)

There are numerous photos in that thread that are pretty obvious fakes; you'd think an organization billing itself as an "authority" would have spotted those pretty easily.  ::)

Even the later ones can be identified using some deductive logic and a fine eye for detail, the guys over at RS had some really well informed analysis.
Slice you open like a tauntaun, faster than the Autobahn,
Or a motorbike in Tron, do the deed and then I'm gone.

Offline Rob

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Council Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20594
    • View Profile
    • Vitamin
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2014, 05:35 PM »
and the idea that somehow AFA was not liable for their gross negligence in not identifying these as clear fakes when they had multiple opportunities to do so)

AFA isn't liable because they cover their own asses in the terms of service that everyone agrees to before they'll grade your product.  I always say that when you give money to AFA you're paying for an acrylic case and an opinion.  That's it.  There's no guarantee with those guys.  To me they're damaging to the hobby because of the way that prices get jacked up, because they encourage people to open imperfect cards, and because they're not willing to stand 100% behind anything they authenticate - but if they did, they'd be out of business over something like this in a heartbeat.

Offline Jesse James

  • Staff Member
  • Grand Master
  • *
  • Posts: 31485
  • Slippery When Poopy
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender.com
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2014, 05:57 PM »
What Rob said...

I've always felt like AFA is for people not confident enough to figure **** out on their own.  I hate them and feel they're a pimple on the ass of the hobby, frankly.  They provided a service that did nothing more than jack up the prices of carded products for really no reason besides, "Some guy, somewhere, who nobody really honestly gives a **** about says this product is ______ quality".

I can determine that on my own.  If I can't, that's on me, but why be in the hobby if you can't absorb the knowledge yourself and need that AFA logo?

I hope this is the demise of them as a company in this hobby because, clearly, their opinions are horse hockey, and they don't know a thing more than anyone else, and if anything they know significantly less than most people who actually pay attention, learn, and enjoy vintage collecting.  They're purely detrimental.

If you went to a guy to get your brakes fixed, and he said, "Well they should be good, but if they fail that's really not my fault just so you know", would you get your brakes done there?  These guys are scam artists IMO.  They have been from day one.
2011 Rebel Fleet Trooper Gets My Seal Of Approval!  But Where's The Friggin' Holster On Him!?
Jedi Defender.com Contributing Editor, Twitter @JediDefender & @Jesse_James77

Offline solrac

  • Jedi Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 452
  • fett-ish
    • View Profile
    • bounties
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2014, 11:46 PM »
There are quite a few on e-bay right now. I asked one of the owners of the auctions if it was a Toy Tony and he didn't know what I was talking about, or pretended not to know. The figure, a lite blue Boba Fett is AFA graded all 90's palitoy no stem bubble like Dale's.
He's no good to me open

Offline Morgbug

  • Old
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 15997
  • mmm. pemmican.
    • View Profile
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2014, 12:22 AM »
If this guy really committed fraud on this level, possibly for hundreds of thousands of dollars, has anyone filed a complaint with police?  I'm shocked that there isn't some kind of criminal investigation?

All of this underscores why I don't collect carded vintage.  There was no discernible difference between his fakes and the real deal besides the air in the sealed bubble...  And even authentic carded figures are too expensive a risk considering that eventually all those bubbles are coming off of those 35 year old cardbacks someday anyway as the glue ages and fails.

It's why I stopped collecting carded vintage, about half way in.  I have some really nice pieces, no question.  No AFA crap either.  But two brief stories:

I bought a lovely vintage Star Wars carded Gonk Droid.  It came alright, but shortly after the glue let go and I now have a lovely loose Gonk Droid.  I can't even get and AFA-U on it because they didn't open it.  Rob's right, the glue will eventually let loose.  It might be another 30 years, but it might be 30 days. 

As for AFA I have a very good Canadian friend that sent in his toy fair Vader to AFA.  He's an excellent collector and a very big vintage carded collector as well so he's quite aware of grading and quality factors for cards, bubbles, etc.  He was pretty convinced he sent in something that should come back as AFA90 and it came back AFA75.  He is absolutely convinced that AFA switched out his Vader for another.  Now, it's completely and utterly anecdotal and there is precisely zero proof behind the story.  But I know the guy, he's been collecting since he was a kid and that's when the movies first came out.  He's a knowledgeable authority IMO and he thinks he was screwed.  I'm betting he was right. 

I'm not a fan of grading.  I understand the appeal, but it's all a scam to me.  Same thing in comic books.  Yeah, if you're buying an Amazing Fantasy #15, sure, you want it in good shape and you're damn unlikely to read it.  But the modern stuff, like McFarlane's run on his Marvel Spiderman title?  Puhlease, there's probably at least a million of those in circulation.  Crazy idea of adding value where there's nothing really to add. 
Minivans: a sign of the apocalypse.

Offline Jeff

  • Administrator
  • Jedi Council Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20229
  • i stay down with my demons
    • View Profile
    • www.JediDefender.com
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2014, 10:26 AM »
As for AFA I have a very good Canadian friend that sent in his toy fair Vader to AFA.  He's an excellent collector and a very big vintage carded collector as well so he's quite aware of grading and quality factors for cards, bubbles, etc.  He was pretty convinced he sent in something that should come back as AFA90 and it came back AFA75.  He is absolutely convinced that AFA switched out his Vader for another.  Now, it's completely and utterly anecdotal and there is precisely zero proof behind the story.  But I know the guy, he's been collecting since he was a kid and that's when the movies first came out.  He's a knowledgeable authority IMO and he thinks he was screwed.  I'm betting he was right. 

Unfortunately, this isn't the first time I've heard a story like that.  Others who have made the accusation usually get "it must have been damaged in shipping it to us" and you really have no way to prove anything. :(

The only time I've ever considered grading anything was always when it was an in-person type thing where you're there to watch them. 
Editor-in-Chief  - www.JediDefender.com
Follow me on Twitter - @jedidefender / @jlsmentek

Offline Rob

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Council Member
  • *
  • Posts: 20594
    • View Profile
    • Vitamin
Re: Toy Tony carded figures.
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2014, 10:32 AM »

As for AFA I have a very good Canadian friend that sent in his toy fair Vader to AFA.  He's an excellent collector and a very big vintage carded collector as well so he's quite aware of grading and quality factors for cards, bubbles, etc.  He was pretty convinced he sent in something that should come back as AFA90 and it came back AFA75.  He is absolutely convinced that AFA switched out his Vader for another.  Now, it's completely and utterly anecdotal and there is precisely zero proof behind the story.  But I know the guy, he's been collecting since he was a kid and that's when the movies first came out.  He's a knowledgeable authority IMO and he thinks he was screwed.  I'm betting he was right. 


I have a similar story, but not about Star Wars.  My wife and I built her engagement ring together (we're such a modern couple).  We looked at stones and were sold one that was a little smaller, but with excellent clarity, and the only occlusion was deep in the stone near the base of it, and you really need a loop to see it.

Now, I stare at pixels all day long looking for any little **** up in images, I'm observant, and I'm quick to catch things like this.  I saw the occlusion clear as day, but could only see it under the loop.

So we pick that one, and the ring gets made, we get married and live happily ever after.  Then one day my wife notices a pretty large occlusion, just beneath the surface of the diamond.  Everything else is as described - clarity, cut, size... BUT, there is absolutely no way in hell I missed this occlusion that you can see with the naked eye right on the top of the stone.  It's in the gem report, and I bought it... but I am 110% convinced that they did not put the stone that we picked into the ring that we designed and bought.