Author Topic: Rebel Fleet in the OT  (Read 1264 times)

Offline Paul

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Rebel Fleet in the OT
« on: November 10, 2003, 10:00 AM »
In ANH were the Fighters that were on Yavin the only Fighters in the ENTIRE Rebel Fleet?

Also does anybody have a guess/reasonable belief of what the size of the Rebel Fleet was during each movie?  And it's composition? (Frigates, cruisers, carriers etc)

I am reading "Empire" the Comic series and the Biggs story is getting me thinking.

Another Question is "Where did the Y_Wings come from?" We are told in a couple sources that the XWings are stolen  from InCom, but what about the Y-Wings...They still show up in Jedi so they have to coming from somewhere...

Offline LandotheScoundrel

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Re: Rebel Fleet in the OT
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2003, 10:54 AM »
I'm not sure where the fighters came from, but I would say that the fighters we see at Yavin do not represent the entire rebel fleet.

I'm sure there are many different cells of the Alliance organization, perhaps with only certain leaders (Dodonna, Mon Mothma) knowing the location of them all. The Yavin base was probably the only one Leia knew about.

I'm not sure if any of the Alliance Frigates/Crusiers/Carriers were even at Yavin, since we only see the Rebels using one-man fighters to engage the Death Star. Though its been suggested that we only see a small part of the Yavin Battle.

I don't think we see the Alliance put all their eggs in one basket until the Battle of Endor, which adds to the desperation of it.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Rebel Fleet in the OT
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2003, 03:32 PM »
A lot of this depends on the old point of view...

The rebels are descirbed basically as a smaller military force than the Empire, but people thinking in "Earth terms" may mistake that to mean they're REALLY a small force, like only a handful of vessels or whatnot.

The thing is, in comparison to the Empire, even MILLIONS or possibly Billions of individuals, multiple fleets, tons of fighters, etc., could/would be considered much smaller than the Empire itself.

For instance, if you follow the X-Wing series, or other EU that are similar then the Rebels have their own shipyards, t heir own safeworlds, their own infrastructure beyond the Empire...  It's not as vast, it's not as easily defended, and it's not as cost effective for the Alliance but it's still formidable enough to wage war within the outer rim territories with sporatic incursions and campaigns into the deeper sectors of the Imperial Space/Galaxy.

My personal opinion is the Alliance has multiple fleets, multiple bases (with the "Secret" Yavin and Echo bases being a primary military strategic "platform" with which to leap fast and devastating larger-scale engagements into Core Imperial areas that wreak havoc...  Thus the bases need to be kept secret (Because they're also easily accessible by the Empire if they find them) and they're sort of a "front line" center.

But, like I said, it depends on your POV about things.  Some people, for instance, take the fleet at Endor in ROTJ to be the ENTIRE Rebel Fleet at the time.  

I personally feel the fleet at Endor was a composite fleet, possibly made up of the command ships and "best" picket ships of various fleets, and at the same time multiple (dozens even perhaps) Rebel Fleets are in operation elsewhere, as are multiple rebel bases...  Some even known to the Empire (Like the Shipyards of Mon Calamari for instance), but which would require HUGE campaigns to overtake...

Thus, the Alliance's main tactic is still hit/fade and guerilla tactics...  War of attrition will always favor the weaker side.  And thus the Rebels deathly feared the Death Star...  It's abilities against fleet attacks and its ability to travel and destroy uncivil worlds would make it the ultimate weapon to take what little (Baring in mind this is all in comparison to the Empire still) the Alliance had.

Think of it this way...  Imagine the support ONE world like Earth could give to the Alliance.  Millions of troops, tons of equipment like ships or armor, clothing, food, financial support...  One planet could make just fighters and supply the Alliance with fighters for years...   Now imagine how many planets are in support of the Alliance and can generate just as much or more for the Alliance War Effort.

The possibilities are pretty huge...

Now, take that and multiply it by some outrageous factor and you have what the EMPIRE is supplied with, and you see how the Alliance is only small in comparison to the Empire, but the Alliance is by no means a "tiny" military of ragtag soldiers...  It's all the whole "galactic" thing that makes it a lot larger thing to consider.

The best sources I've seen for this, if taken with some grain of salt and your own creativity, are the West End Games sourcebooks and some of the video games.  They tend to put the galactic conflicts into perspective on this huge scale, whereas the movies only show the conflict on a very focused/tiny measure in comparison.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Rebel Fleet in the OT
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2003, 03:37 PM »
Oh, as far as fleet compositions, the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook from WEG gave a nice diagram of what a REbel Picket line would look like, right down to the fighter escort.  Seems reasonable to me...  Scale in the silhouettes could be off though as WEG was notoriously inaccurate.

Rebel fleet composition could include any # of various vessels though...  Refits, captures, mutinied, or constructed at Rebel ship yards/safe planets...  

I'd wager the Nebulon B, Corvette, and MC80-series Cruisers are the top vessels since that's what we see most prominently at Endor...  

X-Wing/TIE Fighter series of flight sims lists multiple other vessels in use by BOTH sides though, including MOdified Nebulon B's, Modified Vettes, Corellian Gunships, Dreadnaughts, Assault Frigates, right on down to various transport vessels being used by both sides as well.

One of my favorites is in the new Rebel Strike game, which introduced an Imperial Gunship that's, for a large vessel, fairly maneuverable, but has a poor firing arc...  Definitely a pain in large #'s though.

If I can scan and somehow post a picture, I'll get a shot of that picket line in this thread for evaluation by the group. :)
2011 Rebel Fleet Trooper Gets My Seal Of Approval!  But Where's The Friggin' Holster On Him!?
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Offline Angry Ewok

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Re: Rebel Fleet in the OT
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2003, 04:38 PM »
I'd like to take a look at the picket line, I've always wondered what the ratio looked like... I always figured Yavin was a small cell - that's how it remained secret from the Empire, right?  ???

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Rebel Fleet in the OT
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2003, 09:41 PM »
Small, but I mean check out the medal ceremony at the end...  They were packed with troops, and were capable of handling themselves...  

I'd say a small front line force able to wreak havoc on Imperial shipping, supply, and any other aspect of their infrastructure.  Communications raids, shipyard raids, assassination, etc...  They had enough pilots there to be pulling sorties left and right across the inner-rim territories where the Empire had dominance, and still race back and hide.

Unless the Empire had developed a way to track them without physically placing something on a vessel, they'd be at the mercy of these guerilla raids in space.

For instance, our current situation in Iraq's much the same.  Small pocket's (In comparison to us) are pulling the little hit & fade junk left and right.  Terrible way to wage war, but it's always how the small guy does.

BTW, this is the fun stuff I love about talking here...  You guys know what I'm saying, and I know what you guys are saying, and it's civil.  There's a first time for everything! :D  Wish there were more like you guys (Especially with the military background interest) invovled in our little niche. :)
2011 Rebel Fleet Trooper Gets My Seal Of Approval!  But Where's The Friggin' Holster On Him!?
Jedi Defender.com Contributing Editor, Twitter @JediDefender & @Jesse_James77

Offline Paul

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Re: Rebel Fleet in the OT
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2003, 08:19 AM »
Here is my theory on the ROTJ Fleet as welll....since Mon Mothma says that the Empire is stretched across the Galaxy in a vain effort to engage the Rebels, I would assume that apart from the Fleet we see in the Movie, that there are at least 2 other small or medium sized fleets out in the Rim or Core jumping into a system, doing some damage or even attempting a blockade and then scooting out before any large number of Imperial Vessels can get there to confont them.  Basically there are Rebels and Imperials fighting all over the galaxy that we never see or hear about.

I like Jesse's threory on the Yavin Forward Base.  It also explains why there were not any/many Rebel Capital ships that we see.  Either they knew that the Death Star was going to be able to take them out, or they thought a large number of capital ships would arouse suspicion.  Escepcially out there in the middle of nowhere.

It also explains why the Rebels always have ships that have Hyperdrives.  If you can send an entire fighter/bomber group to a target without needing to piggyback on a carrier, you have less assets to be  destroyed/lost in an engagement.

Offline LandotheScoundrel

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Re: Rebel Fleet in the OT
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2003, 11:24 AM »
I've had the thought that there was a galaxy-wide synchronized insurrection on all Imperial-controlled planets shortly before the Battle of Endor began. This would explain why the Empire was spread so thin at that time.

There may have even been a surreptitious war of disinformation going on behind the scenes to lure the Imperials into thinking there were going to be several specific incidents at certain places. We know the Emperor fed disinformation to the rebellion in order to trap their best ships between a line of warships and a much-improved, fully functional Death Star, so disinformation was certainly being utilized.

This may even explain why the Emperor planned to make the Death Star the new seat of power of the Empire. He may have been expecting an insurrection on Coruscant, making his retreat necessary. Let the rebels have Corsucant for the moment, but when there's a planet-destroying battlestation in orbit, they'll be under his control again.

If all planets in the Empire that had a significant enough rebel presence were to have an uprising at the same time, then it makes sense that there would be less Imperial forces present at the top secret Death Star project (which was supposed to be a simple victory). The Emperor underestimated just how many people hated his regime.


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Offline Paul

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Re: Rebel Fleet in the OT
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2003, 06:11 PM »
I think a point Jesse brought up before really shows in the ROTJ final battle.  The fact that a Military Advisor was not on the set was really evident.

In ANH and ESB we see the battles taking place pretty much like they would if you were going to "map" them out.  In ANH you had certain elements of the Attack Squadron going after the Anti-Aircraft Guns, you had one group going after the Fighter Screen and another after the target.  Fairly Textbook stuff.

IN ESB on Hoth you have Skirmishers or guys at a listening post running back to the main line of defense being followed by Recon Elements of the empire, etc etc.

But in ROTJ the ships are not formed up the way a Navy Battle Group would be assembled.  I mean first off, why was the Medical Frigate even there?  Why wouldn't the Medical and Support Craft not jump in until they got a signal (assuming there is a Space Geneva Convention that states that Medical Ships can't be armed)  The ships don't have picket lines or any type of screen for the capital ships.  

I have to go and watch the space battle again (oh dang it ::))....