Author Topic: Originals vs. Prequels  (Read 4374 times)

Offline Hemish

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels - What is Missing from the PT?
« Reply #15 on: September 1, 2004, 01:30 AM »
Well i just won a copy of the OT dvd's on ebay
They might be copied from laserdisk but i don't really care
I wanted them this way from the start and when they started showing up on DVD i was like nah i'm waiting for the proper dvd's but after whats going on i couldn't stand it.So i needed a copy of them the way they were meant to be seen.
 
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Offline Famine

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels - What is Missing from the PT?
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2004, 10:34 PM »
Wow. It's amazing to see how much my oppinion of Anakin differs from you guys. Of course, the angry teenager part may play a role. I think Anakin was a good charachter from Episode I and evolved into a great charachter in Episode II, by displaying his emotion. I'm sure I'd feel that passionate to disobey orders given the new freedom I had found as a Jedi, to help rescue the man who saved me from slavery, and to help find my mother. I'm sure I'd have reacted the same way to her death. Off with their heads, I say.

The love aspect I see as believable, especialy when you have a young stud jedi, and a hottie senator who are both young and naive.

Ah well, I love Anakin, and can't wait to see him evolve onscreen in Episode III.

Kevin
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels - What is Missing from the PT?
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2004, 07:17 AM »
So may as well tack something onto an older thread...

What's missing from the PT I miss from the CT?

-Military Structure...  There's almost none.  The story's not focused on a main group really, but kind of jumping around.  IN the OT you've got the Alliance and Empire...  2 clearly defined sides from start to finish, embroiled in a galactic conflict.  Instantly focused story.

With the PT you've got what starts out as a planetary milia/police force who seemingly are automatically overrun without even finghting against an unknown military.  The Trade Federation, being the unknown military, are a corporation or business organization...  not a military.

Then you throw in the Gungans...  Whole other thing.

Then there's Episode II which starts to establish some military basis, and thus a real "Star Wars" kinda theme, but it barely starts it off and the military action we do see at the end of the film is hap-hazard, confusing, etc...  it's not structured and realistic so much as it's fast and eye-candy.

-Another thing missing between the two, for me, is quality acting.  Yeah, Hammil and Fisher weren't winning oscars but out of the prequals I feel lackluster performances have come from:  Natalie Portman, Jake Lloyd, and Hayden Christensen. 

Not much excuse for 3 main actors in the two prequals to deliver undoubtebly bad performances in my view.  I'd say that, of the 3, Christensen has the best showing, with Portman having the worst (only because she's older/more experienced than Lloyd). 

Only so much can be put on the dialogue and Lucas as far as blame...  To me the actors need to hold their own too.  They're paid more than enough to warrant some blame. 

-Forgettable characters...  It bares saying, but the classic trilogy you simply don't forget the characters.  Even background characters stick in your mind.  Jabba was genius at the time, Yoda's an unmatched piece of pop-culture, Tarkin's incredibly developed in depth, the droids are amazing, Chewbacca's everything he's intended to be...  The list goes on.

With the prequals, you're slapped with Jar-Jar Binks immediately, and not only is he simply forgettable, but you find yourself striving to forget him.  I guarantee if you take out 50% of his dialogue, give him subtitles instead of slave-speak, and you've got yourself a 100% improved character that intrigues people more.  Hell, even the stepping in poop joke had its merits, but little else did.

Don't make him suddenly adept as a soldier and leading an army either.  God that whole thing pissed me off...  He's a numbnuts through the whole show then suddenly he's Patton at the end.  Don't do that.  Make him just a tag-along with Tarpals, and make Tarpals actually HEROIC...  Show him kick some metal ass and DEVELOPE HIM.

Same goes for Panaka...  Don't just leave the character with a couple lines, but actually show him kick some ass with the droids...  Kill a Neimodian or something.  Or...  God forbid, kill the dork off while he defends the Queen!  There's a novel idea, and one that would give the character more importance...

Episode 2 shares some of this too, though less.  I'd say that Dexter Jetster (besides suffering from a piss poor last name) hurts for character development. 

The Outlander Club's an ideal place to recreate the Cantina, to an extent, and wow the crowd/new viewers to the series...  Do so!  And don't breeze through the sequence really fast with little footage of the background.  It's like a watered down Cantina with nothing of real interest in it.

-Don't cheapen military situations...

Combat should never be dumbed down or "cheapened".  This goes for the Geonosis battle, The Trade Fed/Naboo Battle, the Naboo Space Battle...  None of it.

Geonosis is the best of the prequal lot...  Lots of action, nothing's really "funny" in it, though Amidala/Anakin exchanging witticisms while fighting is asinine and 3PO's bobblign around (while funny to me) wasn't needed.

The Naboo battle(s) are the worst though, as Anakin miraculously pilots a fighter, and dumb luck finds him destroying the TF's ship.  I cry BS on that one...  Either have the kid more in control of the ship and displaying actual SKILL and ability rather than luck, or have him simply not be a part of the conflict really beyond maybe helping knock out some fighters who are after the REAL heroes (God forbid we develope Ric Olie into a deep character who is the one that takes out the TF ship ala an old Wedge ANtilles). 

On the ground, the human battle could've been bigger...  Show an organized military engagement, with lots of troops...  The whole thing was simply too contrived and silly to me.  The Gungans should've been seen getting offed by the dozens, and the humans should've had simply more people there getting offed by the dozens too...  Give a sense of loss for God's sake.  The guy did it better showing 2 Ewok's get blasted than he could with an entire CGI army.

Pathetic.

The irony is I enjoy the prequals, I just think these are some of the things missing.

BTW I'd have had the young Anakin be played by someone older and simply bumped the ages around.  Have him be a teen so perhaps you have a deeper pool of actors to pick from who can do the job.  Screw that little freak Lloyd and his now gargantuan cranium, because I think he is a plague on the Vader character.  The proverbial zit on Vader's butt, forever there.   ::)
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Offline JesseVader08

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels - What is Missing from the PT?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2004, 01:51 AM »
The Naboo battle(s) are the worst though, as Anakin miraculously pilots a fighter, and dumb luck finds him destroying the TF's ship.  I cry BS on that one...  Either have the kid more in control of the ship and displaying actual SKILL and ability rather than luck, or have him simply not be a part of the conflict really beyond maybe helping knock out some fighters who are after the REAL heroes (God forbid we develope Ric Olie into a deep character who is the one that takes out the TF ship ala an old Wedge ANtilles). 

Truer words were never said.  As annoying as Jar Jar was, I could tolerate him.  But when Anakin basically wins the entire Naboo battle BY COMPLETE FLUKE, I was seriously pissed.  You could say: the force guided him to destroy the power in the control ship.  Well then at least make it appear that he felt the force guiding him, rather than just randomly shooting.  So he accidentally destroys the ship, which shuts down the battle droids, which wins the Battle of Naboo.  All Fluke.  **** off, give us something more intelligent to work with Lucas.  The presence of a believable climaxing battle is the number one reason I like AOTC better than TPM.

And OK, so Jar Jar is there for comedic relief so that the kids can laugh.  Hey, I laughed at him a few times too.  (Let the flames fly).  But I hate it when the blundering fool can continually destroy battle droid after battle droid.  OK, once is funny, but again and again - it gets old in a big hurry.

The biggest drawback to the prequels?  Emotion.  In TPM, there is rarely any expressed, or when it is, it seems so forced that it's not believable.  In AOTC, Anakin's anger with Obi-Wan is what I expect to see, but Hayden manages to come off as too whiny rather than enraged.  I sure hope he can improve on his ability to project this rage in ROTS.   :-[

Offline Angry Ewok

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels - What is Missing from the PT?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2004, 04:51 PM »
I wish there was some sort of Phantom Menace Extended Director's Cut (as in, he's cut from the production), because there are so many spots within TPM where we're really left to use our own imagination with what is going on.

The problem is that Lucas has taken the war out of Star Wars.

Not that Star Wars was ever that gritty in terms of the war.

Offline CHEWIE

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels - What is Missing from the PT?
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2004, 05:41 PM »
I'll go back and read everyone's comments when I have a little more time, but before I do so I have to say that here are my overall grades of each film so far -

TPM - C+
AOTC - A-
ANH - A+
ESB - A+
ROTJ - A

 :P

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels - What is Missing from the PT?
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2005, 02:00 PM »
I think the issues of character and story are what set apart the OT and PT.  I think it's actually pretty easy to see why there are such differences between the two.

The OT deals with (somewhat) everyday people.  Meaning people who are NOT Jedi.  As a result, we've got a story full of people who are struggling to make a better life for themselves, and it tends to make them a little saltier. 

-Leia is an adept political operator who will resort to unorthodox methods. 
-Luke is a dreamer trying to follow in his father's footsteps. 
-Han is a loner who is mainly wrapped up in his own problems and has a scurrilous past. 
-Chewie is his loyal sidekick.
-The droids are the comic relief
-Obi-Wan & Yoda are the mystical guides
-Lando:  a traitor/scoundrel who redeems himself
-Vader is the villain who seeks greater power, hunting the heroes to serve his own purposes.
-Palpatine is the overseeing evil genius.

This is where things differ greatly from the PT.  Everyone has some sort of overriding motivation.  The PT is quite different in contrast.

-Padme/Amidala is much like Leia, but probably more idealistic
-Qui-Gon Jinn is something of a Jedi rebel, but he still serves the Jedi Council loyally.  His story needed to be further fleshed out.
-Obi-Wan Kenobi has developed slowly from an apprentice to a master, but is still a Jedi.  Hence, no ordinary personal conflicts arise for him aside from the master/apprentice relationship between him and Anakin.
-Anakin is the dreamer in the PT.  He seeks to become a Jedi and does.  His ambition, attachment and quest for power are the source of his undoing.
-Jar Jar Binks is something of a loyal sidekick, but really more comic relief in TPM.
-R2-D2 seems to have taken on the Chewie role of loyal sidekick in the PT.
-C-3PO is more of the comic relief side of the droids.
-Darth Maul is the malicious villain with very simple motivations:  destroy the Jedi.  In other words, a very one dimensional character.  None of Maul's backstory is important, and we don't even see his ambition to destroy his own master.
-Count Dooku:  the traitor.  Someone of great power and knowledge who has turned on the Jedi.  This is somewhat similar to Lando's role, since Dooku is used by Palpatine to get to Anakin, much in the same way Vader uses Han, Leia et all to get to Luke.
-Darth Sidious:  again, the evil mastermind.

Even though there are numerous parallels in how the characters function in the stories, the key differences are their own personal motivations.  How are they so drastically different?  Easy answer.  In the OT, our heroes are constatnly on the run from the evil authorities.  In the PT, they're part of the authority system and they're also part of something of a religious order, but they don't see that the system they serve is evil until it's too late.  This makes for a more subtle kind of story, and I think that's why it hasn't taken root as well with many fans.
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Offline Darth Delicious

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels - What is Missing from the PT?
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2005, 07:27 PM »
I think you've all made great points on the acting and character development of the PT...but I think we've forgotten something else that's lacking, and that's a strong, narrative focus.

Now while I would have liked to not have to have seen Anakin as a child (especially with Jake Lloyd's static reading of lines) I'm going to leave that out and say the trilogy could have been produced in the same series of three films, but with a twist. Anakin's character should have been a kid that, while basically good, was becoming somewhat brooding and resentful under the yoke of slavery. Then the Jedi come along and save him, and his future is bright...but being held under the tenets of the Jedi Order smacks of a different kind of slavery to him. Still, he tries to do his best to live up to the expectations placed on him. Then finally, when driven to his choice, he makes his bid for freedom...for the selfish indulgence of the Dark Side...and ends up being even more a tragic figure, because he ends up in the ultimate bondage to the Dark Side and The Emperor.

That makes his sacrifice for Luke in ROTJ all the more poignant; because he's finally realized his life only truly has meaning when you give of yourself freely to help others, something he never understood while a young Jedi.

That's a simplification of the whole thing, but there it is. It ties in nicely with the religious undertones of the whole saga as well.

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Offline Darth_Anton

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels - What is Missing from the PT?
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2005, 08:11 PM »
Gary Kurtz, plain and simple.

Everyone can write and analize why the PT is substandard from now until the end of time, but the true difference between the OT and PT is all Gary Kutz.

Gary Kutz knows how to make what is inside George Lucas's head work, and if Lucas didn't let him go for pushing Lucas into excellence, ROTJ and the PT would be every bit as good as ANH and ESB.
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Offline Herbert_Ackermans

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels - What is Missing from the PT?
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2005, 10:26 AM »
Gary Kurtz, plain and simple.

Everyone can write and analize why the PT is substandard from now until the end of time, but the true difference between the OT and PT is all Gary Kutz.

Gary Kutz knows how to make what is inside George Lucas's head work, and if Lucas didn't let him go for pushing Lucas into excellence, ROTJ and the PT would be every bit as good as ANH and ESB.

Turn that around, and you can say Rick McCallum is one of the greatest causes for the PT to suck big time, also the SE's and DVD-versions.

That man wants us to believe he is the number 1 SW-fan, that he is down with all that is SW. That he is deeply rooted into SW/lore and history.

Shut the **** up with your fat-ass, Rick.

All he did, is let Lucas go wild with his ideas, and never ever did anyone on a substantial issue object. YEah, details, but not the bigger picture.

Didn't Kershner bitch with Lucas about scenes, didn't Kershner threaten to quit if Lucas held on to his opinion on certain scenes? Didn't Lucas back down and hence, TESB became what it is?

Now, we have Lucas unleashed, and see how the PT turns out to be, what he did to the OT and what he undoubtedly will do in the future to the PT.

What will happen with the TV-series? How God-awful can that become?

Offline Darth_Anton

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels - What is Missing from the PT?
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2005, 11:01 AM »
Humor. Has anyone brought up humor?

I think that's what the PT is sorly lacking. The OT had many a great moments where humor was generated because of the inherant conflicts between our heroes, thus creating tons of memerable lines. I can't think of one fun moment like this in the entire PT.
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Offline Brian

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2008, 03:19 PM »
I was thinking about this lately, and was going to start a topic in the "Star Wars Universe" thread - but remembered we had one here that was already fairly similar.  I should change the original title a bit, but basically OT vs PT - why do you like one or the other more (if you do)?

I've just been thinking about this lately.  Like I've said before, there is something I enjoy about each of the movies in the Saga - and I'm not someone who "hates" the Prequel Trilogy.  However, I still vastly prefer the Original movies, and find myself still watching and re-watching them more than the PT, even though they are pretty much memorized at this point.

Anyways, the main thing I keep coming back to is that although they are all Star Wars, the "feel" of the trilogies is just totally different to me for some reason.  Its a lot of what's been mentioned in this thread already (character, humor, etc.), and there may be some nostalgia to it as well.  I think some of it might be the relative simplicity of the OT.  It has better "quiet" moments, the action is great even without all of the technology of today, and in some cases I even prefer the suits/puppets for aliens compared to all the CGI creations of today.  Again, it might just be the "legendary" status of the OT movies - and the way they changed movies in general, but things from that trilogy just seem more iconic in general.  The number of things that the average Joe would recognize is pretty high, even going beyond things like Vader, R2, the Falcon and more.  Even things like the landspeeder, Taun Taun, and Admiral Ackbar have their place in the public lexicon to some extent.  It doesn't seem to me that the PT has that as much, and there are probably some average non-fans that couldn't even name characters like Dooku, Grievous, and Mace Windu.

Anyways, again this isn't meant to be a "bash the prequels" thread, I was just curious to see how other people view the Saga.  Its one big story, but in some ways, it also isn't.  Its Anakin's story, but very distinctively different trilogies (in many ways, on purpose I'm sure).  What do you like about the OT or the PT, and is there anything one or the other could use more of?

Offline Daigo-Bah

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2008, 11:13 AM »
This is a fascinating thread to me, Brian, and I want to go back and read every response when I have more time.  I'm writing an "essay" if you will, that I want to eventually post somewhere and have you guys read.  I bring up a lot of why I feel the prequels should never have been made at all, or at least be dramatically different than what they were.  If I had to cite one major issue, then it would be the combination of unlikely interactions between the trilogies' characters (like C-3PO being built by Darth Vader, R2-D2 serving as both Darth Vader's and Obi-Wan's astromech droid, and Yoda being friends with Chewbacca among many others) and the reveal of too many OT "secrets" in the PT (such as Anakin being Luke and Leia's father, what Yoda looks like, and of course that it is a Skywalker that becomes Darth Vader).  If it were up to me, and I absolutely had to make a prequel trilogy, I would focus it on Palpatine and other new characters, with only mention of Yoda and so on.  I still feel that the OT did such a great job on exposition of the saga history that prequels were unnecessary to the story.  Perhaps stand-alone films with various new characters would have been better than an actual history of the OT.
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Offline CookieeMonster

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Re: Originals vs. Prequels
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2009, 03:13 PM »
I did something similair over on Yakface, but I said what would you change in the movies and listed all of them 1 through 6, these are the changes I would make to the movies.

Ok things I would change.

Here are some ideas:
Ep. 1
1) Change Naboo to Alderaan - it would make the whole story make more sense, and it would make Alderaan an important target again, but this time for the Trade Federation.
2) Introduce Bail Organa and Owen Lars at this movie -- these are the people who brought Luke and Leia up, they're important, I would do a homage and make Owen and Beru know Anakin Skywalker - ALA A New Hope cut scene with Biggs and Cami and Fixer.
3) Make Anakin a little older (and a better actor) and give him a personality
4) Keep Jar-Jar as is but make him less of a bumbling fool, similair to the new Clone Wars.
5) I would have C-3PO and R2-D2 as part of the Alderaan Royal Court, so they would be together from day one.
6) I would make Obi-Wan the Jedi Master and Qui-Gon Jinn the Apprentice, and then Obi-Wan could have been taught by Yoda, and then he looses the Qui-Gon Jinn Padawan to Darth Maul, and Starts to Train Anakin as his new Padawan.
7) Darth Maul should have been used more, and kept around till the second movie, and have dooku be his apprentice.
8) Change the Pod Race and get rid of all the CGI Aliens, and use Aliens Already Established from the WEG RPG Books (this means using established alien species long before the PT Aliens appeared on screen), in other words make it better and similair to the Races in the Droids Cartoon, hell even use Thall Joben and Jord Dusat.
9) Anakin should not save the day here, it should have been Obi-Wan and the forces of Alderaan.
10) No midi-chlorins more mysticism
11) No virgin birth, however keep Mysterious Birth (to latter be explained away or not)
12) Make Breha Organa the Queen of Alderaan, with Princess Padme Organa as her younger Sister and show both in this movie.

Ep. 2.
1) More development and back story of Obi-Wan
2) Better back story for Boba Fett
3) More about the Jedi and the way they train and work
4) Better Actor to portray Anakin - Hayden cant act
5) Have the death of Anakin's mother as the first scene of the movie, thus making it significant to Anakin's state of mind throughout the next 2 movies.

Possible idea: Obi-Wan wishes to negotiate with the Sandpeople. Anakin goes against this idea and attempts a failed rescue. Anakin blames himself and Obi-Wan and the Jedi for not being able to do anymore and not acting quicker. Palpatine gloats over Jedi indifference to family, and starts to use this to sway Anakin over to his side, by stating if he had only known he would have intervined. This would give Anakin's decision to switch sides more grounding, this would come from the fact his mother had died and the way the jedi handle emotions.

Ep3
1) Anakin should not walk away when he finds out who Palpatine is because by this time Palpatine should have been able to seduce Anakin with the promise or power and greatness, but keep reminding Anakin that the Jedi would not allow this (basically letting the dark side take control off Anakin)
2) Obi-Wan should not be responsible for leaving Anakin to burn and die, this isnt in his character, hell they were considered to be brothers - would you walk away and leave your brother to die.
3) More about the Fledgeling Rebellion and Padme's role as one of its co-founders.
4) A more respectable death to Padme, and a more heroic one.
5) More screen time for Vader in suit - I would have the scene where Obi-Wan and him Fight earlier on and have Obi-Wan try to bring him back over to the light side, believing its not to late, like he tells Luke "I once thought like you but hes more machine than man now" or something along those lines.

Ep. 4-6
Remove all re-release additions to the movie except cool scenery, and some of the more interesting Aliens.