Author Topic: Day After Tomorrow  (Read 2971 times)

Offline Pistol Pete

  • Youngling
  • *
  • Posts: 97
  • Maul
    • View Profile
Day After Tomorrow
« on: May 27, 2004, 04:40 PM »
Well, this seems to be one of the most hyped movies so far this year (along with Chronicles of Riddick) and its looks pretty good.  Anyone going to see it?
Bang Bang

Offline Scott

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 18705
  • Get Some
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2004, 05:16 PM »
Pass, living in Minnesota makes me laugh at the weather.  This is one of the only places I know of that can swing from -50 oF to 100 oF in a year and have all 4 distinct Seasons

Plus I don't much care for run for the hills disaster movies (ala Deep Impact and Armaggedon)

And...I've seen enough of the BS commercials during the Playoffs that I about want to puke

Offline Vator

  • Jedi Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
    • View Profile
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2004, 06:29 PM »
Actually, this movie isn't that crazy...infact it's in a feild of research that is currently understudy. Besides it's not a run for the hills type deal, more of a run to the mexican border type thing...
- June 22, 2004 12:13 AM -

Offline proudfather2

  • Jedi Initiate
  • *
  • Posts: 246
  • Todd
    • View Profile
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2004, 01:34 PM »
I'm not sure how they can cram hundreds of thousands of years of climate change into several months but I gotta tell ya, that little PLOT HOLE alone is killing any promise for me. This weather-gone-horribly-wrong flick doesn't really do it for me anyway. However, I may take in a veiwing in a month or so some Saturday morning just becausae I'm a sucker for good FX and loud scores. Other than that, I'n not too excited. My money is on Spidey 2!!!

Offline Morgbug

  • Old
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 16232
  • mmm. pemmican.
    • View Profile
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2004, 03:24 PM »
It's fiction, nothing more

Might be a good disaster movie, but it's not well grounded in science.  If you're concerned about climate change ask yourself the following question about the forecast models they use:  Why do none show potential for cooling when the temperature can indeed drop below zero?  Why is that not one of the possibilities.  

I could go on for hours about the scientific holes in climate change, but this is not the place for it.  Suffice to say it has more to do with shifting economics than shifting climates.  
Minivans: a sign of the apocalypse.

Offline Vator

  • Jedi Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
    • View Profile
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2004, 05:24 PM »
No, it does have some slight grounding in science. However I do not support the theory as it's porposturous, but it is in a feild of study that is active.
- June 22, 2004 12:13 AM -

Offline Morgbug

  • Old
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 16232
  • mmm. pemmican.
    • View Profile
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2004, 09:23 PM »
No, it does have some slight grounding in science. However I do not support the theory as it's porposturous, but it is in a feild of study that is active.

Agreed, a very valid field of study.  

The predictions (not from the movie, from the IPCC) are bunk, IMNSHO.
Minivans: a sign of the apocalypse.

Offline Scott

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 18705
  • Get Some
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2004, 10:28 PM »
Read an article in The Rolling Stone today about Global Warming, the worst worst case scenario is something like this happening in 10 years and even that is really pushing it.  More likely...70-100 years with no significant change in CO2 output.  Cars make up 1/3 of all CO2 emmissions, seems like a no brainer to me

My biggest gripe is with the Bush Administration on this, their policy is one the Kerry should be attacking for the rest of the year

Offline Morgbug

  • Old
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 16232
  • mmm. pemmican.
    • View Profile
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2004, 11:03 PM »
Not quite true Scott.  

Northern Hemisphere has warmed by 0.6 C over the last 100 years.  Most of it occurred prior to 1950.  i.e. prior to the big advent of the automobile.  

Take a look at historical data for the 1930's and 1940's.  You'll find they do not differ significantly from that experienced in the 1980's and 90's.  What drove the climate change at that point, certainly not automobiles?

And while I am no huge fan of Bush, his climate change stance in not signing the Kyoto protocol is a very wise thing to do.  While the intent of the protocol is noble, even it's architect's will tell you that it will make a negligible difference with tremendous impacts on taxation levels.  

Look for a moment at who is pushing this so very hard.  Europe.  Consider for a moment the size of the average European country compared to say Canada or the United States.  You know why the US and Canada are the largest per capita emitters of CO2?  I just told you why.  LIfestyle is a factor as well, there is no denying that, however the public transport that is so practical in Europe is not functional here because of large geography.  

Kyoto is also flawed in that it puts no penalties on developing nations such as India and China.  That is tremendously problematic.  China is set for a huge economic boom with all the trappings that we enjoy in North America.  You don't really think they'll turn around and sign on to reduce emissions, do you?  

Kyoto is as much about economics as anything else.  Vladimir Putin is contemplating signing the protocol and it is essential for Russia to do so, due to the need for a majority of nations to do so.  Putin has said he will sign only if Russia is allowed to be a full partner in the European Union.  Not because he sees a need to reduce emissions, but because he wants to be part of Europe's plans to function as a world economic power, derailing the US in the process.  

A couple of points to consider with respect to the 'science' behind it.  The IPCC document is not peer reviewed and certainly is not constructed solely by climate scientists.  The bulk are economists, sociologists, etc.  Not hard climate science.  

Think about error.  Remember statistics class and the 68-95-99 rule?  That equates to the number of standard deviations and the amount of error under a bell curve.  I can't speak to what is allowable or normal in Engineering publications, but the bulk of biological publications use two standard deviations, or a 95% confidence interval.  Roughly that means 95% of the time, a given expected result will occur, with only 5% margin of error.  Those much vaunted climate scenarios that forecast temperature increases of variously 1.5-6 C over the next 100 years?  Three standard deviations in the calculation, not publishable in just about any other field, yet the norm here.  32% chance of error.  Now I am quite confident that no engineering firm would accept that number for a structural calculation, would they?

My offhand comment above regarding why models don't have negative impacts should be better explained.  Think of a graph with an x/y axis, zero at the origin.  That is the graph those temperature increase calculations fall into.  Think however of a graph with negative values as well.  Being a Minnesota boy, you know damn well that temperature can drop below zero.  Why then does the IPCC document and calculations show no possibility of this occurring?  Think about the movie that started this discussion.  While I happily right it off as bunk, look at the premise that it shows, a massive ice age in North America.  Kerry, Gore and all sorts of other climate change believers suggest this as a possibility, yet their own model calculations do not allow for it.  Why?  Because the models are insufficient.  

Search for articles by Christy and Spencer out of Alabama.  Legitimate scientists beyond a doubt, yet they are on the outs in the climate science world.  Why?  They don't share in the boon that is climate change.  Their work shows that the satellite record shows no significant warming in the troposphere.  That is counter to the surface record.  And speaking of the surface record, contemplate the urban heat island effect.  Is it warmer in downtown Minneapolis than it is out on your grandparents farm on any given day?  Most likely, yet the weather station for Minneapolis historically has not moved, yet a huge concrete urban jungle has sprawled around it.  No effect?  

Think about the historical temperature record for a moment.  Contrast that with the geographical structure of the Earth's surface: 2/3 covered by water with no historical temperature record.  Africa has a poor historical temperature record, as does most of the rest of the Southern Hemisphere.  So we're saying we're warming based on temperature records from less than 1/3 of the available data.  Also consider that most of the historical records were taken from rather primitive data recorders inside a Stevenson screen and recorded visually and manually prior to the 1980's (and probably in most places for that decade as well).  Can you imagine someone on a cold blizzardy Minnesota day wandering out to a screen, popping it open and and missing by a degree Farenheit every so often?  I think that's well within the reasonable expectation of error.  Yet that one degree F is precisely equal to the 0.6 C the planet has "warmed" over the last century.  Hmm, error versus measurement being the same?

North America from San Diego to Churchill were warm from the 1880's until the end of the 1940's.  We then entered a period of cooler temperatures during the 1950's, 1960's and into the mid 70s.  Most temperature considerations are based on 30 year rolling averages.  So for any determination from the last 25 years, that average has been pre-biased by having what was abnormally cool temperatures during the preceding decades.  I'm not sure if you're old enough to remember the mid 70s but at that time the big fear was the coming ice age, not global warming.  

If you want an interesting read, find Bjorn Lomborg's book.  Oh sure, he is ridiculed in the pages of Scientific American, but a Danish inquiry into complaints vindicated him and resoundingly criticized his critics.  

Put it this way, we are indeed warming, but is it because we are coming out of the last ice age or because humans are driving it?  I'm not for a moment suggesting modifying our lifestyle is not in order, but hell, the provincial government I work for that decentralized us for votes (hello, Putin?) rambles incessantly about climate change, yet I still have to drive 60 miles each way to work to satisfy their inability to give up a few votes.  Hypocrisy at it's finest.  

Read deeper than what the media want to say.  Take a very careful look at historical temperatures.  Long term.  

Climate change is a neat theory, but just that.  It's grandest problem is that proponents are happy to blame anything on it and feel quite reasonable to do so.  That foot of snow we got here two weeks ago: global warming.  Not precisely but they blamed it on increased variability.  But the variability is not increased.  It has happened before, lots of times.  And it will happen again.  I just find it all too entertaining because regardless of whether it's hot and dry or cold and wet or any combination thereof, it's climate change and it's never happened before.  Until you look at the history books.
Minivans: a sign of the apocalypse.

Offline Scott

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 18705
  • Get Some
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2004, 11:31 PM »
Good points...

I totally agree on the whole we have no idea what is driving the climate change.  I've read scenarios where increased greenhouse gases might actually be good for the earth...greening up the arid regions and making more water available all over

I also agree on the whole economics of the Kyoto protocol.  I support the US's refusal to go along with that, especially the part of not having third world countries sign as well.  Their oncoming industrialization will only make carbon emissions worse

The whole climate change worst case scenario is a bunch of hooey too and you stats are right on, there is no way in hell anyone can model the Earth's climate for the next 100 years.  They can barely model short term the next day.  

Where I think my personal biggest beef with the BushCo is with the fact they are basically Puppets of the Oil companies.  I truly believe some of the rhetoric that one of the big reasons we went into Iraq was to get a larger supply of oil.  

I guess my question is...why take the risk of continued greenhouse gas emmision?  Why not pump the money into Fuel Cell research, something that is renewable and "friendly"  The article rightly mentions some of the initiatives that the Bush Administration has made EPA and DOE roll back or recind (such as renewable fuel alternatives) under the directive of the API (American Petroleum Institute).  Some of the troubling signs such as increased weather phenomena (tropical storms, hurricanes and tornados) and the melting and breaking up of some of the glaciers are saying something.  Agreed that we don't know for sure that its because of us but we also know that more and more and more CO2 isn't good.  Cut emmissions and plant more green, I guess I could stand behind that 100%

I'm not one to be a head in the sands type of person and am usually very skeptical about this kind of stuff.  BEing a part of the chemical industry its hard not to support the Oil Industry too because they are the driving force of entire work load.  Oil is down so is chemical production...IMO we can't keep going down the same road with our heads in the sand either.  As I said above why take the risk...spend the money on the research and see if it will work.  If it won't it was worth the effort, this should be the 21st century NASA...this is where the greatest minds of our time should be working.  Why take the risk in the hopes that this is just the Earth being the Earth?

Offline Morgbug

  • Old
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 16232
  • mmm. pemmican.
    • View Profile
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2004, 11:56 PM »
Quote
Where I think my personal biggest beef with the BushCo is with the fact they are basically Puppets of the Oil companies.  I truly believe some of the rhetoric that one of the big reasons we went into Iraq was to get a larger supply of oil.  

Genuine question here out of ingnorance.  I've never understood this assertion, particularly since we are now paying more than ever for oil.  Didn't the US essentially 'win' the war?  If so, where is the vaunted supply.  Really, I don't follow the logic so if you can explain it, I would appreciate it.  

As to the oil companies, I don't follow US politics sufficiently to know the biases or rule changes entirely.  I'll take your word on it.  

Quote
Some of the troubling signs such as increased weather phenomena (tropical storms, hurricanes and tornados) and the melting and breaking up of some of the glaciers are saying something.
A couple of points here:
1.  Weather phenomena are not increasing, just their cost.  Some of the definitions have changed slightly and certainly the recording technology for Tornadoes, for example, has improved dramatically.  Now ask yourself why and how we calculate cost.  Most of the costs of disasters are borne by insurance companies.  Seldom, if ever, do we do a comparison of present day dollars versus previous years.  So naturally the cost of rebuilding from Hurricane Stella 1999 is greater than Hurricane Stella 1949.  Insurance companies are all for the truth behind climate change as it allows them to increase insurance premiums.  About 10 years ago our basic deductible up here increased from $100 to $500.  The rationale for this was due to increased flooding.  As I explained to the insurance agent, since we lived on the 3rd floor of an apartment, if we had a flood claim, the deductible would be the least of anyone's worries.  Think too about Florida.  Previously people wouldn't build on coastal shore property.  It's always been beautiful, but for a time people were smart enough to not build there cuz dollars to donuts, a Hurricane would hit destroying their place.  Not so these days.  Construction quality has increased dramatically, allowing dwellings to withstand greater forces.  To some degree.  There is damage regardless, so where you had no property and no claim prior to construction, you now have dramatic increases in property damage claims due to natural events.  The events always occurred, they just used to knock down trees and have a bit more erosion rather than flinging a three million dollar boat into a swimming pool.

BTW, Antarctica is thickening, not shrinking.  Arctic glaciers are indeed melting, as they were in the earliest part of this century.  Find some older printed books and see what they say about glaciers.  Even at the same time as concerns were rampant about an impending ice age, glaciers were receding.  

I completely agree about the future research.  Most of the oil barons of the middle east see oil as a transient thing, a matter of time before it is replaced.  It's the alarmist crap I can't stand.  And being in a near communist country that has signed onto Kyoto, the big solution is to tax us ever more.  No thanks, I already pay 50% + in taxes to the goobermint.  

I'm especially bitter about this stuff right now as we have our annual government green commuter challenge on right now.  I should bloody well be working on the same campus my wife works at.  I would be closer to the University researchers, have access to resources such as journals, cheaper shipping, etc.  I could commute with my wife (daughter is on campus in the daycare, so whole family in one vehicle) or ride the bike or bus.  But I can't because of politics and a hugely anti-urban attitude.  That costs me easily $3000 in gasoline costs a year alone, never mind wear and tear, repairs and devaluing of my automobile.  I'd love to be more green, but I'm not allowed to.  The answer is to move to the town I work at.  Sure, and my wife can quit her job that she's worked so hard at (three degrees later) and we can go to a small town with next to nothing in it except retirees.  That would be fair.   >:(
Minivans: a sign of the apocalypse.

Offline Scott

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 18705
  • Get Some
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2004, 12:42 AM »
Supply is still low due to fears of sabotauge and the like of supply.  I think production is about at prewar levels right now in Iraq but the ceiling is a lot higher.  Pipelines between Iraq and Turkey were opened only to be subsequently bombed a few days later.  Plus the plants are 20 years behind standard I'm guessing so there's a lot of money that needs to be pumped in before the increased supply is there.

Offline Morgbug

  • Old
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 16232
  • mmm. pemmican.
    • View Profile
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2004, 01:26 PM »
Fair enough.  

So then the argument goes that the supply will be there, we just have to be patient and wait for the war to be over, followed by facility upgrades?
Minivans: a sign of the apocalypse.

Offline Vator

  • Jedi Apprentice
  • *
  • Posts: 2072
    • View Profile
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2004, 01:32 PM »
Pretty much, Iraq just shipped out it's first batch of oil since the war started last month I belive.
- June 22, 2004 12:13 AM -

Offline Jedi Idej

  • Jedi Padawan
  • *
  • Posts: 634
    • View Profile
Re: Day After Tomorrow
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2004, 01:54 PM »
Bush stated in his primetime speech that Iraq was pumping 2 million barrels. I heard the same figure a few weeks prior, but that the figure was a best-case scenario; actual daily output varied. Hopefully they have the facilities secured and are working on stabilizing other oil sites.

I read that probably the biggest reason for the jump in demand for oil is China's expanding economy.