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GI Joe and Baseball
Scott:
I'd rather have a 3-3/4" Torii Hunter instead of Duke...why not get Hasbro to do that instead?
As far as the uproar its a little silly...I agree with Bob that the Joe line is a tad bit Propogandaish but kids dig it and it a pretty large part of our culture as is baseball. Do these same people get mad at Marines and Army commericials that play non stop during Football season? And in the end...its a toy. Kids'll dig it and I don't think the Twins or Hasbro was thinking that this would be a big deal at all
Jesse James:
First, while I respect your disagreeing opinion, political discussion (and bashing) aren't allowed here Bob, so please be respectful of fthat. It's a site rule is all, so please just keep that in mind.
I'll reply with why I don't believe Joe's propoganda though...
--- Quote ---“any organization or plan for spreading a particular doctrine or a system of principles”
--- End quote ---
G.I. Joe, while like "Uncle Sam" as a fictional character, isn't organized to spread a doctrine or system of principles. He was a fictional character (set of characters) set into a specific story fighting a specific enemy.
He was based in America, but didn't fight American enemies that are real. To that end, the only principles spread by G.I. Joe were basic moral ones. Also, G.I. joe marketed in other countries was often not marketed as "A Real American Hero", but rather marketed generically or to the country in question.
Basic moral messages of "do what is right" were the only propoganda G.I. Joe ever seemed to spread in my view. That's what I got from him as a child. I feel it cheapens a lot of people's childhoods to say otherwise, but that's just my opinion.
--- Quote ---“a specific type of message presentation, aimed at serving an agenda. Even if the message conveys true information,”
--- End quote ---
G.I. Joe didn't serve an agenda other than his own... He wasn't aimed at any one particular "enemy" other than Cobra, a fictional one. He wasn't a recruitment tool, didn't endorse joining the military, etc...
Just because he was pro-American doesn't mean he was pro-military power to reach an end. If anything, it was the opposite in the cartoon series, which preached non-violence to a kind of funny extent when you watch the cartoons now as an adult.
The comics were more aimed at adult thinking, just as they are now, but I still don't see a correlation to propoganda for the U.S. military there.
--- Quote ---“the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person”
--- End quote ---
G.I. Joe reached many audiences, but didn't spread any anymosity in its themes against U.S. enemies of the time. For instance, the communist USSR. Whatever brief mentions they had in G.I. Joe fiction eventually wound up showing we were in some Alliance against a "common threat".
If G.I. Joe had preached anti-Russian sentiment, I maybe would agree, but because it was all fictionalized I can't see any correlation to propoganda for the U.S.
Propoganda for better living... Moral behavior... Being "brave". That I can agree with. That's not "propoganda" in its truest form though. No more so than saying Mr. Rogers is propoganda anyway.
Being a good person isn't an "instiatution, cause, or a person" though, so I again just disagree there. To each their own though of course.
--- Quote ---There’s no question that G.I. Joe is propaganda; while it may not preach a negative viewpoint, it preaches nonetheless, with its infamous tagline- “A Real American Hero” it states that heroism is built on militaristic principles and bravery weighed on how much damage you inflict on the enemy in the process of defending your home turf.
--- End quote ---
Again, I simply disagree... G.I. Joe's tagline of "A Real American Hero" is no different than if you applied it to a Fireman, or a Policeman, or a school teacher... It's just that kids react to military toys instinctively. It's not an intentional message that "military power to acheive victory is America at its finest" or anything similar.
Also, if anything, G.I. Joe preached pacifism at all costs... To not hurt your enemy but take them prisoner. The cartoon was so chock full of non-death it really does make you laugh now if you watch it. :)
You saved your enemy. Even the "real" enemies of the time didn't like who the enemy in the fictional world was and G.I. Joe/America and Russia even teamed together, working as one, to fight the fictional enemy.
So long as there's fiction there, which is all Joe is, was, and will be, I don't agree that there's propoganda there. If there is, it certainly didn't change me in the slightest, even if it was the most influential toy on my childhood.
To each their own though... It's just seeing things differently.
Bob Crane:
--- Quote ---First, while I respect your disagreeing opinion, political discussion (and bashing) aren't allowed here Bob, so please be respectful of fthat.
--- End quote ---
My apologies to you or anyone else I may have offended who has an affinity to “Joe”, it was not my intention to offend in a political manner, and my only bashing was directed at the hippies that raised their arms in protest against the action figure being handed out at the game...considering Nataku and Mikey D both bashed them (“but all the crazies have come out of the wood…” “crazy ass, ******* whack job ass holes”) before I did, and you singled me out is… puzzling.
--- Quote ---He was a fictional character (set of characters) set into a specific story fighting a specific enemy.
--- End quote ---
There’s really nothing that states that propaganda must be spread through actual living people, the ideology is what counts and not the characters involved. Dr. Fu Manchu was a fictional character and he was certainly a vehicle in spreading anti-Asian sentiments.
--- Quote --- G.I. Joe reached many audiences, but didn't spread any anymosity in its themes against U.S. enemies of the time.
--- End quote ---
The quote is “the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution” So again, Propaganda does not necessarily impose a negative attitude towards an enemy, an example of this are the commercials aired on Cuban television, many of which do not bash capitalism but focus instead on the greatness of their communist state (although it’s plainly overrated).
--- Quote ---Propoganda for better living... Moral behavior... Being "brave". That I can agree with. That's not "propoganda" in its truest form though. No more so than saying Mr. Rogers is propoganda anyway.
--- End quote ---
Hm… Mr. Rogers didn’t state his ideologies while running, screaming, holding the Star-Spangled Banner in one hand and an M-16 across his bench-pressed physique (although this would have been a sight)
--- Quote ---G.I. Joe's tagline of "A Real American Hero" is no different than if you applied it to a Fireman, or a Policeman, or a school teacher... It's just that kids react to military toys instinctively. It's not an intentional message that "military power to acheive victory is America at its finest" or anything similar.
--- End quote ---
But there’s a huge difference, a fireman or a schoolteacher does not use extreme force with destructive ends to help humanity… ‘not sure if can say the same for the cop.
And to say that kids react instinctively to military toys is wrong- a child is not born with a pre-disposition to idolize the fighting man or the urge to play with guns, these violent tendencies are nurtured in the child by society and its glorification of war.
There are plenty of other toy lines that were extremely popular with boys in the late seventies that never focused on the subject- lines such as Mego’s WGSH, Six Million Dollar Man, and Fisher-Price Adventure People which in fact did have figures of doctors, firemen, mountain climbers and other types of non-lethal heros. In fact, due to public abhorrence to war after the Vietnam years, G.I. Joe himself was changed, trading in his pineapple grenade for a hang-glider and becoming the “G.I. Joe Adventure Team”.
--- Quote ---Also, if anything, G.I. Joe preached pacifism at all costs... To not hurt your enemy but take them prisoner. The cartoon was so chock full of non-death it really does make you laugh now if you watch it.
--- End quote ---
That’s because the sensors deemed excessive violence (i.e. death) unsuitable for young minds, the destructive ideology was still shown with the gross amount of exploding Cobra aircraft, regardless of the fact the pilots had great ejection seats. Also, as I recall from my youth, none of the kids I played with ever let their Cobra men escape from the merciless deaths they concocted with the help of the action figures and their fertile young minds.
--- Quote ---So long as there's fiction there, which is all Joe is, was, and will be, I don't agree that there's propoganda there. If there is, it certainly didn't change me in the slightest, even if it was the most influential toy on my childhood.
--- End quote ---
I watched it also, and played with the toys (hell, I still collect military figures) and it didn’t change me either…but can you say the same about the millions of other children? Clearly G.I.Joe was instrumental in molding the minds of at least a small percentage of boys and girls who grew up in the eighties.
--- Quote --- To each their own though... It's just seeing things differently.
--- End quote ---
This, we can agree on. Thanks for the stimulating debate.
Jeff:
--- Quote from: Bob Crane on July 1, 2004, 03:31 PM ---...considering Nataku and Mikey D both bashed them (“but all the crazies have come out of the wood…” “crazy ass, ******* whack job ass holes”) before I did, and you singled me out is… puzzling.
--- End quote ---
I use the term "crazies" lovingly to describe any group of people who are so passionate about an item or an issue/cause that they have become crazed (to make insane or as if insane, cracked) by it.
The liberal crazies (like Kerry or KBZ ;)) are at it again...
The conservative crazies (like Bush or Dressel Rebel ;)) are at it again...
The Star Wars crazies are complaining about Hasbro again :)
Just a term I like to use, and believe me, I use it often referring to just about every group. No harm meant by the use of "crazies", so I'm sorry if any of you JediDefender crazies are/were offended. :-*
Jeff
Jesse James:
I actually singled you out Bob because you used the term Liberal, which others didn't... As Nataku said, "Crazies" can explain both sides of the argument... I agree there's maybe intent there that only liberal sided people would be throwing up their arms about this issue, I feel it's taking a shot at Liberals to point them out.
Crazies could be anyone though with this too... I personally think anyone saying this is crazy, but that's just me... Irregardless of their political leanings.
Didn't mean to single you out too much, or make you feel separated from the group, but it was more the liberal remark... Tough to keep politics out of everything, but we are trying here because it's just not good.
No offense meant or anything of course.
While I see your points you're making, I still disagree that G.I. Joe, a private property that appealed to kids of all types from backgrounds of all types was/is legitimate propoganda.
I can't say I know anyone who can honestly say G.I. Joe shaped them into patriotic individuals... I can't say I know everyone though either, to say my opinion's accurate. ;D haha
Again though Bob, you weren't meant to feel outed, just that a line was stepped on that was being treaded sort of closely, and a mention had to be made.
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