Author Topic: "I Must Obey My Master"  (Read 1442 times)

Offline Scott

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 18324
  • Get Some
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender
"I Must Obey My Master"
« on: September 25, 2004, 12:03 AM »
Watched the ROTJ DVD tonight and I was thinking all through the scene where Palps is trying to convert Luke "Why is Vader such a sucker?"

Why is it that he has to be so obediant and a bootlicker?  What did Palpatine do to convince him that he was the one who should be in charge?

I realize Vader was plotting from pre-ESB for an overthrow of the prune...but what happened in EpIII that there is such a strong bond?

Is it just two guys reveling in their badness?

I can also envision Palpatine egging Anakin on in his duel with Dooku...use your aggression to end the war, its the only way, he's killed too many people in the Galaxy, get rid of him...etc

"Once you start down the dark path, forever, will it dominate your destiny"

SilverZ

  • Guest
Re: "I Must Obey My Master"
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2004, 12:29 AM »
Watched the ROTJ DVD tonight

I'm sorry.

Quote
and I was thinking all through the scene where Palps is trying to convert Luke "Why is Vader such a sucker?"

Why is it that he has to be so obediant and a bootlicker?

This is my theory:

I think there's an underhandedness to all the apprentices that makes them seek opportunities to stab their master in the back to seize power. It seems to be a shared trait between Dooku and Vader -- they plot and plot, but take to direct action, both trying to recruit their own apprentice before any insurrection. Vader does it to Luke; Dooku to Obi-Wan.

In turn, the master seems constantly interested in refreshing their apprentice, probably for the same reason -- an apprentice only goes so long before ambition gets the best of them. Like you pointed out, Palpatine eggs on Luke to replace Vader, probably the same as he will egg on Anakin to destroy Dooku.

So my opinion is Vader believes he must have an apprentice or ally to confront and destroy the Emperor. In the end that's just what he does, but without the selflessness he gains in those last moments, is purely incapable of deposing Palpatine while consumed by black, dark ambition for power. Once he is convinced his fate is to die, that he has no chance at gaining control or power, he breaks the Sith cycle.

What I hate about Jedi is that there's simply not enough information given or even implied to convince me there's anything deep going on under what's onscreen. The whole movie is a stupid missed opportunity for great drama. Instead we get, well, Return of the Jedi.

Hummph.

Offline Darth Broem

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3001
    • View Profile
Re: "I Must Obey My Master"
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2004, 08:57 PM »
Oh I think both of them know whomever wins over Luke is going to end up killing the other one.  Plus, Vader knows that all the Emperor has to do is shock him with electrical bolts and he's toast.  Literally.  Vader's only chance is convert Luke and then one the other can kill Sidious/Palpatine/Emperor.  I think that's why Vader is always letting Palpy call the shots.  What else can he do?

Offline VadereX

  • Youngling
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • I'm a llama!
    • View Profile
Re: "I Must Obey My Master"
« Reply #3 on: November 5, 2004, 07:04 PM »
I loved ROTJ.

I think that it will be answered well in Episode 3. But possibly he needs Sidious to help him convert Luke to the Dark side, then they can over throw Vader, and that's why Vader saved Sidious from Luke's swing at him.

Offline Scott

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 18324
  • Get Some
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender
Re: "I Must Obey My Master"
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2004, 09:57 AM »
Why is it that the end of Empire he's there asking Luke to join him...and then Luke asks him the same thing in Jedi and he says "I MUst Obey My Master"?   

I've read of some sort of Dark Force energy that is keeping Vader alive that Palpatine is using as a knife dangling above his head, he cuts his ties he's done, he doesn't...power, riches, fame etc

Offline Scott

  • Staff Member
  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 18324
  • Get Some
    • View Profile
    • JediDefender
Re: "I Must Obey My Master"
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2005, 10:39 AM »
Anyone else still bothered by this?  I am, I think there is absolutely no reason for Vader to obey Palpatine at all in ROTJ.  I guess the thing that makes sense is that he knows he cannot beat him by himself and so he's hoping Luke will do it for him, however, the idea that Palpatine controls everything Vader does isn't really fleshed out at all in ROTS.  Since Padme died, what is left for Vader to live for?  Control of the Galaxy? I could see that I guess but why does he need Palpatine to do it?

Offline John C

  • Jedi Padawan
  • *
  • Posts: 970
    • View Profile
Re: "I Must Obey My Master"
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2005, 11:37 AM »
I just saw the movie last night.  I'll take a stab at it.  Vader knows Palpatine came back for him and saved his life on Mustafar.  He might feel like he owes Palpy. 
It might also be that the Dark Side has twisted his mind.  You can see it when he goes to Mustafar.  He wipes out the defenseless, chokes his pregnant wife and comes at Obi Wan even though he's on the low ground. 
It might be that all he has left is burning hatred for Obi Wan and Yoda.  Palpy can help him get back at them and he knows it. 
Maybe he holds onto a slim hope that his child survived and thinks Palpy will help him track the kid down someday. 
All guesses on my part and I'm sure others can come up with more reasons. 

Offline Herbert_Ackermans

  • Youngling
  • *
  • Posts: 85
  • I'm a llama!
    • View Profile
Re: "I Must Obey My Master"
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2005, 11:43 AM »
If you've seen "Der Untergang" or "Downfall" as it's called in English, you can get some kind of idea what Vader's state of mind COULD be.

In "Der Untergang" you get to see several Germans, both politicians, military and civilians, who will take their own lives instead of giving up the fight,

As ROTS goes, Anakin pledges his allegiance with the Sith, and he commits some dark deeds, kills the younglings, defenseless seperatists and his pregnant wife.

That's a stigma he is supposed to live with for the rest of his life, it means, there is no way back, there is no possible means to return as he will not be welcome.

Once he realizes that, and that is something missing in ROTS, he embraces his new fate with new vigor and puts every effort into fullfilling his new, dark destiny.

And maybe, maybe, he does see that what he did turned out to be better than what the Jedi were doing, he DID end the war, and brought peace and order to the galaxy, as he wanted.

He did fail to save his wife.

Chances are, he shut the door on that part of his life. As he says in ROTJ :"That name <Anakin Skywalker> no longer has any meaning for me."

He indirectly says, he is no longer the man he was before he turned to the Dark Side.

As to why he must obey his master, it might be that he has no other choice but not that there is a clear and present danger coming directly from the Emperor. As it seems, Vader gets treated well by the Emperor, even though the DS-1 was destroyed, we see Vader in command of a large fleet of ISD's and has his own Super Star Destroyer. ANH already shows he had his own personalised Tie.

Also, TESB shows he can choke all he wants, and still the Emperor does not interfere. Off course, Vader is the Emperor's tool, but I feel that the 2 are connected not by fear, but by fate and commitment, and their ideal as Sith.

The more interesting bit is :"You don't know the power of the Dark Side, I must obey my master." what exactly is the power of the Dark Side?

Yoda says it quicker, easier, more seductive. Well seductive yes, ROTS shows that, Anakin clearly is seduced by the promise of being able to save Padmé from dying, but given Palpatine's elaborate scheme, is it quicker, is it easier? Doesn't look like it.

I think that Vader, in ROTJ, is fundamentilly surprised that Luke still sees good in him, despite all he has done. It is after that talk, that Vader is for the first time in the OT seen to apparently reconsidering things. He walks over to the side of the gantry, and as his breathing implies, he is pondering grave things. Might be thinking back, might be thinking again :"What have I done?"

But until that point, he had commited himself to the Dark Side, but I dón't think he really has a sword of Damocles hanging over him, should he not do the Emperor's wishes.