Author Topic: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?  (Read 6324 times)

Offline JediMAC

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Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« on: March 27, 2003, 07:41 PM »
Some folks out there in Star Wars land are speculating that Mace Windu may have the makings of a "not so nice" Jedi Master after all.  Might even be playing both sides of the Force fence...  There's been some interesting hints and tidbits throughout the Prequels so far, along with some behind the scenes footage, dialogue, and story line that may lend credence to this theory.  Anyone have an opinion on the matter?

Do you think Mace might be assisting the bad guys, or might be a Dark Side plant in the Jedi Council, or may wind up turning to the Dark Side in Ep. 3?

I know someone who's got a whole slew of interesting (and compelling) evidence compiled on the subject.  Maybe he'll chime in here...   ;)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2003, 07:58 PM by JediMAC »

Offline dustrho

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2003, 01:17 AM »
One of my friends and I were watching AOTC this evening, and I've always thought Mace Windu was a "bad egg."  He says a bunch of little things here and there that sort of give it away.  One thing is when he says that Count Dooku couldn't be responsible for the planned attack on Padme, because it's not in his character.  There are other things he says that make it sound like he's not that good, but it's late and I just can't remember it.  I think he's the one that erases Kamino from the memory banks in the library.
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Offline Depmode

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #2 on: April 4, 2003, 09:15 AM »
HRm..... I never thought of this.... This would for sure put an interesting twist on the whole SW movies... While he is not one of my favorite characters,  he has become VERY popular with the new movies... It would be interesting if he did indeed reveal himself as a dark sider... BUT... I dunno...  

Offline Morgbug

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2003, 01:00 AM »
Wouldn't this be inconsistent with the actions of Windu on Geonosis though?  Maybe Windu is a good actor and the bit with Dooku was played up, but it sure didn't seem that way prior to reading this thread.  
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Offline Darth Kenobi

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2003, 12:38 PM »
I don't think that Mace is a "bad egg" and is in league with Dark Side. I think every Jedi in the PT as of Ep2 are in league with the Dark Side weather they know it or not.  The reason behind this is the fact that the Jedi get orders by the SC who for ten years is Papaltine (who is Darth Sidous IMO) and also fight for what will become the Emprie since (IMO).  
I think that if Lucas does have the Separist being the founding of the Rebel Alliance and the Jedi fighting for the Empire it would be kind of a tragedy for them since they will all die because of it.

Offline MisterPL

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #5 on: May 2, 2003, 02:33 PM »
I know someone who's got a whole slew of interesting (and compelling) evidence compiled on the subject.  Maybe he'll chime in here...

That'd be me. I'm convinced Mace is the bad egg of the Prequel Trilogy. George has let slip what I consider to be more than a few clues pointing to Mace as a lynchpin bad guy in Episode III, so I've played Scooby-Doo and sniphed out as many as I can. Some are certainly more compelling than others. One or two are just silly. Many may chalk it up to coincidence. Judge for yourself:

- Fighting Style

Quote
As mentioned at StarWarsKids.com:
His combat skills are close to those used by Sith warriors, the Form VII lightsaber fighting style.

Quote
As mentioned at StarWars.com:
Only the most skilled of the Jedi could master the Form VII discipline of combat, for its aggressive nature treaded dangerously upon dark side practices.

Lucas has provided enough background on Mace's fighting style to lead one to believe he'd be all too comfortable wielding a double-bladed lightsabre.

- Saber Color

Mace's is uniquely violet, a combination of Jedi blue and Sith red. Jackson's preference, or a subtle hint from Lucas?

- Saber Design

Darth Maul's Sith lightsaber looks suspiciously like Mace Windu's lightsaber as seen in The Phantom Menace. The lightsaber has since been conveniently "lost" on a mission.

- Character Design

Preliminary artwork for Mace had a familiar Sithy silhouette before it was changed. And even the name "Mace," a name that dates back to the earliest treatment of Star Wars in 1973, has a decidedly sinister ring to it.

- The Actor

You don't hire an Academy Award nominee to play a 2-dimensional character. I don't care how lousy George is as a director, he does have vision. He knew what he was doing by selecting Samuel L. Jackson as a turncoat Jedi. Jackson's screen time has only increased since The Phantom Menace. He will be a pivotal player in Episode III.

- Defiance

Yoda orders Obi-Wan to capture Jango Fett. Mace doesn't hesitate to dispatch Fett once on the arena floor. Self-defense, or covering his tracks?

- The Jedi Blindspot

Mace is deliberately present at very key moments throughout Attack of the Clones, particularly when all-seeing Yoda should be able to detect the presence of the Sith. I believe Mace has been placed in the Jedi Order to cloud the Jedi council's vision.

Quote
From The Art of Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones

1) Scene 008 - INTERIOR CHANCELLOR'S OFFICE - DAY
Palpatine: Master Yoda, do you think it will really come to war?

Yoda closes his eyes.

Yoda: Worse than war, I fear... Much worse.

Palpatine: What?

Mace Windu: What do you sense, Master?

Yoda: The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see, the future is.

In a later deleted scene:

Quote
Scene 015 - INT. JEDI TEMPLE, CORRIDOR - EVENING
MACE WINDU and YODA walk down the long hallways, silhouetted by a lit room at the end.

Mace Windu: Why couldn't we see this attack on the Senator?

Yoda: Masking the future, is this disturbance in the Force.

Mace Windu: The propecy is coming true, the Dark Side is growing.

Yoda: And only those who have turned to the Dark Side can sense the possibilities of the future. Only going through the Dark Side can we see.

Mace Windu: It's been ten years, and the Sith still have not shown themselves. Do you think they are behind this?

Yoda: ...Out there, they are. A certainty that is.

Mace Windu: Do you think Obi-Wan's apprentice will be able to bring balance to the Force?

Yoda: Only if he chooses to follow his destiny.

"Only going through the Dark Side can we see." Big hint there. No wonder the scene was cut.

- Stickin' Up for the Bad Guys

Not only does he point the finger of accusation away, Mace comes to the defense of Count Dooku:

Quote
From The Art of Star Wars: Episode II Attack of the Clones

Scene 008 - INTERIOR CHANCELLOR'S OFFICE - DAY
Padme: Do you have any idea who was behind this attack?

Mace Windu: Our intelligence points to disgruntled spice miners on the moons of Naboo. [add snicker]

Padme: But I think that Count Dooku was behind it.

There is a stir of surprise. They look at one another.

Ki-Adi Mundi: He is a political idealist, not a murderer.

Mace Windu: You know, M'Lady, Count Dooku was once a Jedi. He couldn't assassinate anyone. It's not in his nature.

Wrong. And then later, in the same scene, Mace sides with Palpatine regarding his choice for Padme's protectors:

Quote
Padme: Chancellor, please! I don't want any more guards!

Palpatine: I realize all too well that additional security might be disruptive for you, but perhaps someone you are familiar with... an old friend like... Master Kenobi... [and his obsessive young Padawan]

PALPATINE nods to MACE WINDU, who nods back

Mace Windu: That's possible.

He even goes as far as to defend Palpatine's plan against Obi-Wan's better judgment:

Quote
Scene 037 - INTERIOR JEDI TEMPLE, ATRIUM - DAY

MACE WINDU and OBI-WAN walk along the temple corridors. YODA accompanies them, riding in a small, floating chair.

Obi-Wan: I am concerned for my Padawan. He is not ready to be given this assignment on his own yet.

Yoda: The Council is confident in this [Mace's] decision, Obi-Wan.

Mace Windu: The boy has exceptional skills.

Obi-Wan: But he still has much to learn, Master. His abilities have made him... well, arrogant.

Yoda: Yes, yes. It's a flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves, they are. Even the older, more experienced ones [Mace!].

Mace Windu: Remember, Obi-Wan. If the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance.

Obi-Wan: If he follows the right path.

- Final Episode II Select

Is it a coincidence that Lucas ended the Episode II Select images with this pensive shot of a troubled Jedi Master?

- Reluctant From the Start

Qui-Gon tells the Jedi Council of the existence of a Sith. Mace dismisses the possibility in an attempt to buy time for his Sith conspirator.

- Master of his Domain

In the video game Jedi Starfighter, Adi Gallia comments that Master Windu generally keeps his thoughts closely guarded from the other Jedi. Is Mace just a Jedi who likes his privacy, or is he covering a hidden agenda?

- The Episode III Flashbacks

There are reports that some scenes for Episode III were shot during pricincipal photography of Episode II. It's my assertion that these will be flashback scenes, seen from Mace's point of view during a scene in which Mace's true dual role is discovered.

Check out this image. Mace in a darkened office with what appears to be a holoprojector in front of him and a troubled look on his brow. Could this be one of the flashback scenes shot for inclusion into Episode III revealing Mace's true allegiance? Who's he contacting?
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Offline JediMAC

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #6 on: May 2, 2003, 02:55 PM »
Well, as much as I tend to think Mace is still a perfectly normal, stand-up, honest Jedi - your evidence and argument there MPL almost lead me to think that you're right.  Though I still doubt it...

But "Mace = Dark Side" is certainly there for the taking, if George decides to go in that direction, to say the least.  I just don't think it'll happen, though I wouldn't mind being surprised!  Nice bit of detective work John!   8)

Obviously this is more of a theory of Mace working with the Dark Side fellas in a type of allegiance, rather than actually being a Sith himself though.  Otherwise the statement "Always two there are.  Never more, never less" wouldn't hold true.  Only a couple years (or less if you're into spoilers) 'til we find out!

Offline Morgbug

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #7 on: May 2, 2003, 11:06 PM »
Well dang.  I must say I am impressed.  Either MisterPL is bloody brilliant, or excessively paranoid and reading things into scenes that aren't there.  I know not which it is.  I do assure you that two years hence, if you are correct, I'll be here bowing before you.  

Regardless, an excellent description of why Mace acted the way he did on Geonosis.
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Offline Jedirhino

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #8 on: May 6, 2003, 09:48 AM »
I see your point...I suppose the look on his face when he killed Jango almost seems that he was looking over his shoulder as if he didn't want anyone else to know that it was he that killed Jango...also they cut to Dooku after that and it seems that he didn't want to see it done, but that it seemed necessary because he messed up and Obi-Wan figures it all out...

Offline paploo

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2003, 06:23 PM »
i have always noticed a lot of tension between yoda and mace. I just think lucas would throw us a curve ball like that...

i heard jackson wanted a purple saber and lucas didnt know how to say no to him.

here is my impression.(this is only a joke) mace is actually darth vader, not lukes father. when vader is killed at the end he wasnt really killed it was a mind trick or something to cover his identity http:// (what the hell is this flash button for) is that a macromedia flash file here type thing
« Last Edit: May 18, 2003, 06:24 PM by paploo »
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Offline dustrho

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2003, 03:43 PM »
I can't wait to see EP3, because Mace will definitely be a key player in the movie.

And MisterPL... you made some awesome points there!
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Offline Darth Broem

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2003, 03:49 PM »
Well I think the bad egg is going to be Jocasta Nu.  That's right the lippy littly librarian lady is the bad egg.  I think she's had a thing for Ct Dooku.  He can get her to do anything he wants including updating the Jedi Archives.  Even old librarian lady's fall for the bad boys.  Yep, Dooku had her erase Kamino from the files and told her to keep quiet about it for certain favors of the heart.  Nu is the one that will bring the Jedi order down eventually.  Pawns they are all pawns in the Star Wars universe :)

Offline Nicklab

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #12 on: June 2, 2003, 09:23 PM »
I've heard the Mace Windu argument before.  However, I've thought for some time that Ki-Adi Mundi might be the rotten apple.  There are several reasons why.

First, Ki-Adi Mundi was only a Jedi Knight around the time of The Phantom Menace.  Even though he sat on the Jedi High Council, he was the only Knight among a group of Jedi Masters.  Perhaps there was some mistrust of him?

Second, the original databank listing for Ki-Adi Mundi listed him as having a binary brain.  As a result, it gave him insight into both the light side and dark side of the force.  An interesting side note is that this information was removed from his databank listing.  Perhaps it would lead some to conclusions about his as some sort of traitor?

He's also the only Jedi High Council member other than Yoda or MAce Windu who's had lines.  I don't think another mysterious Jedi traitor would arise without any kind of prior appearance in EPISODE I or II.  He also defends Count Dooku while in Palpatine's office.

Just my two cents worth.
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Offline dustrho

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #13 on: June 2, 2003, 10:37 PM »
Well I think the bad egg is going to be Jocasta Nu.  That's right the lippy littly librarian lady is the bad egg.  I think she's had a thing for Ct Dooku.  He can get her to do anything he wants including updating the Jedi Archives.  Even old librarian lady's fall for the bad boys.  Yep, Dooku had her erase Kamino from the files and told her to keep quiet about it for certain favors of the heart.  Nu is the one that will bring the Jedi order down eventually.  Pawns they are all pawns in the Star Wars universe :)

Wow, I never thought about that, nor have I heard anyone ever suggest that possibility.  That is very believable!  She seems to be the one in charge of the library there, so who else could have wiped out the files about Kamino?  She's not a Jedi, is she?  Perhaps Dooku used the Dark Side to command her to erase the file.

Very, VERY interesting point there!
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Offline MetalJedi

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Re: Is Mace Windu a "bad egg"...?
« Reply #14 on: June 3, 2003, 02:16 AM »
I thin Jocasta Nu AND Mace are in league with the Sith. Jocasta erased the computer bank memory and Mace is the one keeping all the "clouded" imagery from the council.
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