Author Topic: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?  (Read 4228 times)

Offline Jedidz23

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2005, 01:42 AM »
Regarding Palpatine's backstory, he finishes off the Sith Lord story with such evil glee that when he explains the Sith Lord's ironic death, he appears so visibly pleased that it's hard to not take the story as the truth. In my mind, I think it's not BS.

Good point.  I think that is the case; Sidious is so pleased with himself that he temporarily lets his guard down, and we see his true nature seep out.  Whether it was his manipulation, or whatever the case may be, I think he was involved.

Offline Scott

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2005, 09:22 PM »
George Lucas Himself in the latest Rolling Stone answers this very question...

He says it is meant to be ambiguous and there are three possible answers to Anakin's origins

Super Sith Lord Plagius
Midichlorians
The Force

He left it up to the fans to debate and decide and didn't have a real answer

Offline CorranHorn

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2005, 12:22 AM »
George Lucas Himself in the latest Rolling Stone answers this very question...

He says it is meant to be ambiguous and there are three possible answers to Anakin's origins

Super Sith Lord Plagius
Midichlorians
The Force

He left it up to the fans to debate and decide and didn't have a real answer

Ok cool that he definitely left it ambiguous, but I don't see why he didn't indicate Palpatine as a possibility. Palpatine is just as plausible, and in my opinion the best choice from a storytelling pov, as the 3 he suggested. And what is up with Super Sith Lord? Does that make Palpatine Super Duper Sith Lord for offing Plagius?  ;D

Offline Nicklab

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2005, 01:39 AM »
Palpatine tells the newly dubbed Darth Vader "Only one has learned the secrets of eternal life.  Together we will unlock the secrets of the force..."

That seems to rule out Palpatine to me.
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Offline CorranHorn

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2005, 02:09 AM »
Palpatine tells the newly dubbed Darth Vader "Only one has learned the secrets of eternal life.  Together we will unlock the secrets of the force..."

That seems to rule out Palpatine to me.

the secrets to eternal life wouldn't necessarily be the same thing as the secrets to creating life. plus he never says that the one person wasn't him, he just says to Anakin we will unlock the secrets of the force. that doesn't necessarily mean he is not aware of what the secrets are, just that he will be helping Anakin to find them.

Offline Darby

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2005, 05:24 AM »
It's possible Plagueis created Anakin unwittingly, as a result of some Sith experimentation, and Palpatine only uncovered the truth later on, post TPM.  Or Plagueis knew exactly what he was doing and so did Palpy, and the Sith plot is much, much more complicated than one can fathom.

I personally think Palpy created him, and that was the one bit of truth he told Anakin, mainly because of what little weight he gave it compared to the rest.

Offline Nicklab

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2005, 11:36 AM »
Palpatine tells the newly dubbed Darth Vader "Only one has learned the secrets of eternal life.  Together we will unlock the secrets of the force..."

That seems to rule out Palpatine to me.

the secrets to eternal life wouldn't necessarily be the same thing as the secrets to creating life. plus he never says that the one person wasn't him, he just says to Anakin we will unlock the secrets of the force. that doesn't necessarily mean he is not aware of what the secrets are, just that he will be helping Anakin to find them.

It came across as if the powers are related.  And if only one Sith came to master these powers, it seems that the one would be responsible for the immaculate conception.  The story of Darth Plagueis and his powers only seems to be bait from Palpatine to lure Anakin Skywalker to the dark side.  For when Palpatine reveals that only one has achieved the powers of eternal life, it seems that he revealed his own deception to Darth Vader. 

If Palpatine were responsible for Anakin's birth, it would all seem far too convenient, IMO.  It definitely seems that this was intentionally left unresolved.  The origins of many mythological and religious figures have been in many cases ambiguous or mysterious.  There's the Christ analogy for one.  Then there are the numerous heroes of Greek mythology such as Hercules and Perseus who were supposedly children of the Gods, and the story of Rome's Romulus and Remus who were raised by wolves.  Lucas seems to be drawing heavily on these traditions to form some of Anakin's story.
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Offline Jedidz23

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2005, 05:18 PM »
If Palpatine were responsible for Anakin's birth, it would all seem far too convenient, IMO.  It definitely seems that this was intentionally left unresolved.  The origins of many mythological and religious figures have been in many cases ambiguous or mysterious.  There's the Christ analogy for one.  Then there are the numerous heroes of Greek mythology such as Hercules and Perseus who were supposedly children of the Gods, and the story of Rome's Romulus and Remus who were raised by wolves.  Lucas seems to be drawing heavily on these traditions to form some of Anakin's story.

Indeed.  This seems to be more of Joseph Campbell's influence on Lucas, which is a good thing, as far as mythology and narrative are concerned.  After seeing the film again last night, it almost seemed as if Palpatine looked at Anakin with pride (albeit briefly) as he revealed that Plagueis knew how to create life through the Force.  That lead me to believe that the Chancellor was proud of his creation (Anakin).  Obviously, this is just my theory, but my spider-sense tells me I might be onto something.   ;)

Offline Theyrenotdolls

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2005, 11:26 AM »
i didnt get this till the third viewing, but i'd say that when palpy says "Only one has learned the secrets of eternal life"  It seemed to me that he was aware of and refering to QuiGon's  success in that endeavor.  After all, he doesnt say "Only one sith"

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Offline LandotheScoundrel

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2005, 11:31 PM »
Palpatine tells the newly dubbed Darth Vader "Only one has learned the secrets of eternal life.  Together we will unlock the secrets of the force..."

That seems to rule out Palpatine to me.

the secrets to eternal life wouldn't necessarily be the same thing as the secrets to creating life. plus he never says that the one person wasn't him, he just says to Anakin we will unlock the secrets of the force. that doesn't necessarily mean he is not aware of what the secrets are, just that he will be helping Anakin to find them.

It came across as if the powers are related.  And if only one Sith came to master these powers, it seems that the one would be responsible for the immaculate conception.  The story of Darth Plagueis and his powers only seems to be bait from Palpatine to lure Anakin Skywalker to the dark side.  For when Palpatine reveals that only one has achieved the powers of eternal life, it seems that he revealed his own deception to Darth Vader. 

If Palpatine were responsible for Anakin's birth, it would all seem far too convenient, IMO.  It definitely seems that this was intentionally left unresolved.  The origins of many mythological and religious figures have been in many cases ambiguous or mysterious.  There's the Christ analogy for one.  Then there are the numerous heroes of Greek mythology such as Hercules and Perseus who were supposedly children of the Gods, and the story of Rome's Romulus and Remus who were raised by wolves.  Lucas seems to be drawing heavily on these traditions to form some of Anakin's story.

Good points. The virgin birth did not originate with Christ, its an idea taken from many older religions. The theme appears numerous times in Greek mythology, among others. I'm glad that it was included in Star Wars, and I'm glad it wasn't resolved. Its nice to have some things that we can debate for years to come.
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Offline Scott

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2005, 11:34 PM »
Here is the quotes from Lucas on said subject and Ed's point about Christ is addressed as well :-*:

Anakin has no father. Do Christ overtones-
Oh, it's not just Christ. Christ is one of a long, long line of heroes who don't have fathers. There's a long tradition of mythological heroes.

Can you name a few others?
There are a lot of Greek gods who came down [and impregnated mortal women], and so the heroes don't have fathers.  Whether its Hindu, Chinese or Middle Eastern, all the mythological heroes didn't have fathers.  The fathers were the gods.

Now in this particular case, the gods happen to be a life form that allows cells to divide. So it's a metaphorL that which brings life.  I don't want to get too controversial about this - some people believe it happened in other ways, over seven days, but if you listen to biology, there's another theory, which begins with an e. If you study microbiology, you will come to the realization that this alien life-form, which has completely different DNA, helped create life on earth and within the galaxy. But every cell has one of these life-forms in it.  It's a simplified version of relationships - that symbiotic being goes through everything.  That's why Han Solo joins the Rebellion, that's why Luke saves his Father.  In Star Wars land, all these relationships are necessary to bring forth a greater good - and evil.

Now, there's a hint in the movie that there was a Sith Lord who had the power to create life.  But it's left unsaid: Is Anakina product of a Super-Sith who influenced the midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the midichlorians?  It's left up to the audience to decide.  How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force.

Offline LandotheScoundrel

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2005, 11:05 AM »
I like the themes of self-fullfilling prophecy in Star Wars. Anakin is afraid to lose Padme, so he seeks out more power with which to save her. The tragedy of this, is that his power in the end, is what is responsible for her death.

There are alot of these self-fullfilling prophecies in Greek mythology (as with other mythologies, but I'm most familiar with Greek, so that's where I'll draw from). The hero Perseus (the product of a virgin birth, by the way), was prophecised to kill his father, King Acrisius. Therefore, Acrisius placed the infant Perseus and his mother into a chest and set them adrift at sea. Perseus grows up on an island, completely unaware of his background and goes on adventures (slaying Medusa, etc). Many years later he returns to Acrisius' kingdom, where he fulfills the prophecy by accidentally killed the king while throwing the discus.

As far as Anakin's conception is concerned, it could be that Plagueis was trying to create a perfect weapon for the Sith because of the prophecy of the Chosen One who would destroy the Sith. Darth Plagueis then unwittingly created that which he was trying to stop. There is also the idea that the Sith believe the balance of the force will be in their favor, while the jedi believe the opposite. Was the prophecy a general prophecy of the force, or was it jedi only?
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Offline Jedidz23

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #42 on: June 1, 2005, 12:51 AM »
I like the themes of self-fullfilling prophecy in Star Wars...

As far as Anakin's conception is concerned, it could be that Plagueis was trying to create a perfect weapon for the Sith because of the prophecy of the Chosen One who would destroy the Sith. Darth Plagueis then unwittingly created that which he was trying to stop.

I really like the self-fullfilling prophecy idea.  You must have an English degree.   :)

Offline LandotheScoundrel

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #43 on: June 1, 2005, 10:11 AM »
I like the themes of self-fullfilling prophecy in Star Wars...

As far as Anakin's conception is concerned, it could be that Plagueis was trying to create a perfect weapon for the Sith because of the prophecy of the Chosen One who would destroy the Sith. Darth Plagueis then unwittingly created that which he was trying to stop.

I really like the self-fullfilling prophecy idea.  You must have an English degree.   :)

Nope, Bachelor of Art (Graphic Design).  ;D
« Last Edit: June 1, 2005, 10:16 AM by LandotheScoundrel »
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Offline Jedidz23

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Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
« Reply #44 on: June 2, 2005, 12:54 AM »
Ah, nicely done (English myself)!  :)