Author Topic: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?  (Read 1204 times)

Offline Darth_Anton

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Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« on: May 27, 2005, 02:55 PM »
I came up with this analogy in another post and while I tought it was funny, I also thought it was true.

For almost 30 years, we have been told that the Jedi were the coolest heroes in the Galaxy. The force flows within each one allowing them to be in a constant relationship with their surroundings. I find it disheartening that any Jedi could be caught off guard and be shot in the back by a simple minded drone. Clone troops are weak minded. As soon as they got the order they would have been broadcasting their intentions loudly.

To me this very sequence in the movie reduced the Jedi to mear disposable characters not unlike the poor guys in Star trek with the red shirts who always got killed. Am I wrong? Did anyone buy this sequence as what it should have been, a tragic end to the galaxies greatest? It may have been a tragic end, but in the end, I didn't think the Jedi were all that great.
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Offline Darth Broem

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2005, 04:00 PM »
Yes, in a way I was slightly disappointed.  I wanted to see Aayla Secura at least get some deflected shots off with her lightsaber.  At least Ki-Adi fought back some. 

I don't know if it reduces them though.  I think they were very much caught off guard since they have been fighting alongside these clonetroopers for years.  To have them shooting at you would be surprising.  Even if they can sense it before it happens. 

It's like "Ok, I sense the clonetroopers are going to kill me.  What now?  I am insanely outnumbered and there is not a ship nearby I can get to.  I will try to fight them off the best I can.  Here I go." 

By the time they figure it out it's too late IMO.

Offline JediMAC

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2005, 08:18 PM »
Star Trek?  What's that?  :P

But yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with you Anthony, in that the Jedi went out with barely a whimper, and that was one of my main complaints with ROTS.  It changed my view of them drastically.  Don't think I'd go so far as to equate them to the red shirts of Trek, but the Jedi certainly were equal in overall fodder value.

Hell, we saw numerous Jedi (both main characters, and random background ones) deflecting hundreds of blaster shots in the first couple Prequels, so why not now?  Why couldn't they sense the Order 66, and take evasive action?  ****, they've got that serious "Jedi Jump" ability that could've put them WAY far from the danger the moment they sensed it, if they so desired.  Or, they could've used the "Force Push" on the whole lot of Clones aiming at them - at least enough to buy them some time to escape.  Plus, it's seemed to me that shooting a blaster at a Jedi in the first couple flicks was completely useless, since that never yielded any results for the bad guys.  Are we just to assume that Clones shoot much better/quicker than the average Battle Droids, Super Battle Droids, and Destroyer Droids, all of which were attacking various Jedi by the tens and hundreds?  That's lame.

Then, there's the ridiculously pathetic ending to Saesee, Kit, and Kolar.  When I saw that clip of the 4 Jedi lighting up to arrest Palpy in the trailer, I thought that was going to be the most amazing battle scene in the entire movie.  Boy, was I sorely disappointed.  Sith Lord, or not, for Palpatine to dispatch of three Jedi (all from the Council, no less) in a matter of 3 swings in 2 seconds, it made the Jedi look like absolute fools.  4 on 1, with Mace at your side, and they still got their asses handed to them before two of them even moved their blades?  Phhtht.  Pathetic.  Give me a kickass battle between Palpatine and the 4 Jedi, showcasing everyone's skills, before puncuating the fact that Palpy's ultimately better than all of them.  At least make an effort to have the Jedi look like they posed some type of challenge to him.  Am I to just assume that Yoda, Ben, Anakin, and Mace are the ONLY four Jedi who can actually fight worth a darn?  'Cause that's basically my feeling at this point...

Hell, little Padawan Zett Jukassa kicked far more ass than most of the Jedi did.  ::)

Definitely a disappointing aspect to the movie for me.

Offline Nathan

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2005, 08:52 PM »
Then, there's the ridiculously pathetic ending to Saesee, Kit, and Kolar.  When I saw that clip of the 4 Jedi lighting up to arrest Palpy in the trailer, I thought that was going to be the most amazing battle scene in the entire movie.  Boy, was I sorely disappointed.  Sith Lord, or not, for Palpatine to dispatch of three Jedi (all from the Council, no less) in a matter of 3 swings in 2 seconds, it made the Jedi look like absolute fools........

Agreed. This bothers me more than the clone betrayal scenes--there the Jedi have the excuse that their unquestioningly loyal troops are turning on them without warning after three years.

But with the Palps office scene, these are supposed to be four of the best swordsmen the Jedi can field, marching in there with plenty of warning with the specific purpose of doing battle with a Sith, and they get unceremoniously picked off within seconds?? I coulda done better than that.

That was just weak. Maybe Nick Gillard was getting lazy that day.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2005, 09:11 PM by Valin Kenobi »
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Offline JediMAC

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2005, 08:56 PM »
Maybe Nick Gillard was getting lazy that day.

I think you mean Lucas was getting lazy there, actually, since it looks like Gillard didn't have a damned thing to do with the beginning of that sorry-ass scene, Nathan.  ;)

Offline Nathan

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2005, 09:09 PM »
Touché. ;)
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Offline Diddly

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2005, 11:05 PM »
I know you guys will oppose this thought, but I think the Palpatine fight went down perfectly. Palpatine caught the Council leaders off guard. I mean, they knew he was a Sith and all, but they weren't sure what to expect. When Palpatine jumps forward, Kit Fisto jumps back with an "Oh, ****!" type of expression. Even Mace takes a step back before beginning to fight.

As for Order 66, I do think the Jedi deaths were weak, but it kind of had to go down that way.

Offline CorranHorn

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2005, 12:57 AM »
Starting with the 4 Jedi vs. Palpatine battle. Two things to take into account during the duel. One is that the dark side had been clouding the actions of the Jedi for so long, that perhaps in the presence of the Sith Lord their response time was slower. Two, they were in a cramped and confined space with Palpatine taking them a bit by surprise by basically flying at them. I would liked to have seen the three get a bit more fight out of it, but you can find a logical reason for their somewhat sudden deaths.

Now as for the Jedi who got suckered by the Clones, I tend to think some of the Jedi were unable to realize what was happening immediately, again due in part to the shroud of the dark side falling upon them and in part because they weren't expecting such treachery from their own men. If you notice neither Plo Koon or Aayla Secura react at all, as they get shot from behind with little reaction from them. Ki-Adi Mundi only reacts because he turns around to find out why his troops aren't following him. I think part of Order 66 involves some sort of cloak around the Jedi. Of course that goes under the assumption that Order 66 is actually Palpatine manipulating the Clones with the dark side as opposed to it being programmed into the Clones...

Offline Nathan

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2005, 01:16 AM »
^ Good points, Corran.

Side note: To me, Ki-Adi-Mundi's death was one of the most depressing in the whole film.

I've been a fan of his since December '98 in the comic Prelude to Rebellion #1, the first issue of the ongoing series that eventually became Republic. In fact he's the first prequel character I got to know because he was introduced six months ahead of time. I liked him in that six-issue story, and since then I've been following his exploits in the comics.

Then the way his death was presented in ROTS ... he's saying to his clones something like "Let's go, boys!" and starts forward with the full expectation they've got his back like always ... he stops to see why they aren't following ... the look on his face :'( ... then with the sad music overlaid ... :'( Damn that was depressing.  :'( :'( :'( :'(
« Last Edit: May 28, 2005, 01:35 AM by Valin Kenobi »
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2005, 04:11 AM »
I agree with Jason pretty much...

Palpatine, to me, wholely caught the quartet by surprise...  That's how I'll forever justify the sequence in mymind. I'm disappointed slightly by the quick deaths of 3 of them, and felt it was the weakest fight sequence of the film, but I try to attribute the surprise factor (with perhaps a bit of handy work with the force to kind of "stun" them as well?  It's a force ability that shows up in some EU and is quite effective) as the key to that...

The Jedi falling to the Clones though, that harkens back to Anakin's sorta naieve view of the Jedi (this isn't a slight on OUR views of the Jedi either, as being "super heroes", so don't take it that way) when he was a child. 

Anakin felt they were indestructable...  As a child, he saw them as even omnipotent really, and capable of anything.  Qui-Gon explicitly said that he only wished that were so...  Perhaps he was being a bit humble, but If Jedi were not able to fall easily like anyone else then their situations wouldn't be as scary either.

I think a Jedi's ability to sense that which is taking place around him varies...  Some, like Yoda, are able to clearly sense their situation, while others aren't...  The Jedi in battle were focused elsewhere...  We don't see really how valiant an effort was made at the Temple...  Factor in surprise (with the lack of focus) and all that, and I see the Jedi deaths as tragic betrayal.  Betrayal that, to the Jedi, maybe was as hard to swallow as Anakin's betrayal is for Obi-Wan.

I was thinking the other night how bonds may grow witht he Clones...  Some Jedi may see them as tools, others may see them as comrades though (Obi-Wan seemed to view them as a mix, but in the end they are there to "do their job").  Maybe other Jedi are so caught off guard by the betrayal of soldiers they've perhaps fought alongside for some years even, then they are really beyond surprise.  Maybe again it's a sign of how attachment can be the undoing of a Jedi even?
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Offline speedermike

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2005, 05:14 PM »
Guys, the whole point of the Prequels is that the Jedi were arrogant and when their attackers came after them they were caught off guard.

If Lucas says that's way the Jedi die, that's the way the Jedi die. 
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2005, 07:26 PM »
Maybe again it's a sign of how attachment can be the undoing of a Jedi even?

Oooh ... good catch. :)
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Offline Darth_Anton

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2005, 10:46 AM »
Guys, the whole point of the Prequels is that the Jedi were arrogant and when their attackers came after them they were caught off guard.

I've thought about this from that line in AOTC, however, I don't think the idea is fleshed out enough for my taste. It's a stretch, but one could make that connection. Personally, I would have like to have seen a little more time devoted to that idea if that was the case.

If Lucas says that's way the Jedi die, that's the way the Jedi die. 

True, but that doesn't make it the right choice artistically or consistancy wise. ;)
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Offline Jon

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2005, 03:20 AM »
WOW! what you could do with this thread..Look the bottom line is LUCAS' son is a bad ass padawan Zett and can take 8 clones with him(501st special ops to be exact) but no adult jedi can do anything but turn around surprised? like they CAN sense it and they still turn around" please shoot me now"! ok here's a different perspective

Padawan= not even naieve-able to act with
                  full focus under duress

Jedi MASTER= totally naeive to what's going on
                      looks at situation in panic so they
                      can die now

The absolute worst part of the movie for me and 2nd was 3peeo's cheesy line " I feel so helpless"
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Offline dafoo

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Re: Jedi = Star Trek red shirts?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2005, 07:44 AM »
heh, I've been calling the NJO "newbie" jedi Red Shirts for years!

They show up at the beginning of the book to be 'offed' at the end.  At least the film ones, most stuck around for a couple of movies.  Even in the books the jedi a pretty whimpy.

I was sorely disappointed by the simplicity of killing the Jedi in Revenge as well. And the Jedi they showed tended to be Council  ones too. The cream of the crop and they just bought it like nothing.  Kind of makes you wonder about the intelligence of Sidious.  :P

I had been hoping that Sidious would have cloned more silent avengers (i.e. Mauls) for that fight.  Imagine the spectacle of that!

They could have at least shown the jedi really taking down the clones with them, or perhaps having the Star Destroyers just bombarding them into nothing.  I could see that working.

Lucas was totally lazy for the Sidious battle. You barely see a flash and all three council Jedi are toast. Then you get a little manuvering around with Mace and that's it.  Sure you can pawn it off to saying Sidious was clouding their minds or no one knew Sith Lords were tough little buggers, but they all knew about Maul.  That's a pretty tough yardstick there.

<b>Guys, the whole point of the Prequels is that the Jedi were arrogant and when their attackers came after them they were caught off guard.</b> Good point speeder!  I could see them stopping and thinking "What's the from my clones? A threat?!  huh? Ouch that hurts....gasp croak"
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