Author Topic: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?  (Read 995 times)

Offline DoctorPadawan

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Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« on: June 29, 2005, 08:35 PM »
Okay, something has been really bugging me the more I think about it, and it has nothing to do with the Hopalong R2 in the Jedi Starfighter socket that I mentioned in another thread.  It has to do with alliegances amongst the Republic and the Separatists, but with one planet in particular: Mon Calamari.

Now, I tend to hate the Expanded Universe.  No, I LOATHE the great majority of it.  If I could, I'd fire Kevin Anderson into the sun and not lose a bit of sleep over it.  But I'm going to use one EU source I actually liked (the CW cartoon) to support my point here.  But enough rambling; here's my question:

Whose side are the Quarren on in the war?

In Episode II, when Dooku's giving his speech to the engines of commerce on Geonosis, the Senator representing the Quarrens on Mon Calamari (Tikkes?) is sitting there at the table.  Ten minutes later, during Jar Jar's Greatest Folly, there is a contingent of Quarren in the Senate applauding Palpatine and his new emergency powers. 

In the CW cartoon, we see what we've all heard about for years (the Quarren and Mon Cals at war, with the Quarren siding with the Separatists in the Clone Wars).  Then, ROTS rolls around and when Palpatine, Anakin, and Obi-Wan arrive at the Senate after their "landing", amongst the throng of Senators waiting to meet them is another Quarren.  And naturally, when Vader kills the Separatists, there is a Quarren right there in the pile of dead bodies.

So, as the subject line implies, does anybody know what is going on with the Quarren?  Is there some remote Quarren faction on Shitopia that remains loyal to the Republic when the ones on Mon Calamari align with the Separatists?  Does Dooku have photos of Tikkes molesting Naboo shaaks that he is using as blackmail to keep him in the Separatist fold?

And yes, I have far too much time on my hands, but I'm wondering if there is an official reason for the Quarren and their random loyalty in the GFFA.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2005, 09:25 PM »
The Quarrens in CW were not my favorite episode.  Neat elelments to that, but poor execution I thought overall...

My opinion is that perhaps the Quarren are playing both sides and the CW toon is simply wrong...  Not hard for me to accept that given my dislike for that episode for the most part, so I simply ignore it.

Come time of the Imperial era, some EU says both Quarren and Mon Cal support the Alliance...  Depending what you read.  I like that.
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2005, 09:30 PM »
Yeah, this is something I've thought about too. It kind of bugs me, since you'd surely think George or someone would have kept better track of which alien heads were going where. I think it's just a random oversight, with the EU left to fill in the blanks.

Until now I haven't invested too much brain juice into teasing it out, but this thread was the catalyst I needed. 8)

Since you mentioned the CW cartoon, I feel free to go ahead and cite EU right back to you ;):

From the StarWars.com Databank:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/qil/index.html

Quote
Given the strong undercurrent of resentment toward their Mon Calamari cousins and the galaxy at large, it would seem strange to outsiders that the Quarren ever bothered with galactic representation. Yet for the last few decades of the Old Republic, Quarren interests exclusively represented their planet in the Galactic Senate.

It was the Quarren who mined the depths of Mon Calamari's ocean floor for the ores that made the immense floating cities used by the Mon Cals, and the majestic Calamarian starships that soared through space. When the Quarren miners joined the Commerce Guild, they gained considerable political clout. The Commerce Guild was able to buy a majority Quarren presence on the Mon Calamari Council, and installed Senator Tikkes through several terms in office. The Mon Calamari people did their best to have their voices heard, but corporate interests and Quarren isolationism won out time and again.

Senator Tikkes was exposed as a corrupt official during the Separatist crisis, and avoided Republic prosecution by fleeing into Separatist space. He pledged his planet's resources to the growing Separatist movement, joining as one of the founding members of the Confederacy of Independent Systems when the Clone Wars erupted. But he didn't have the right to speak for his people, since a more progressive Quarren, Tundra Dowmeia, was named Senator following his censuring. The resulting political conflict sparked a civil war on Mon Calamari, and Tikkes' supporters became the Quarren Isolation League.

The League sought to reject all Republic presence from their oceans, and took up arms against Mon Cals and Quarren alike to achieve those aims. The isolationists included Quarren mining barons who had grown rich from Commerce Guild funding, and they were able to secure Confederacy support in exchange for continued shipments of raw ores to the guilds. It was Tikkes himself who signed a treaty with Count Dooku, which resulted in the League obtaining advanced underwater weaponry crafted by the Trade Federation and the Techno Union.

In the civil war that ensued, the valiant Mon Calamari Knights did their best to defend their cities and the Calamari Council. The Republic soon arrived, and with clone trooper forces led by General Kit Fisto, they defeated the Quarren Isolation League.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/moncalamariknights/

Quote
The Clone Wars were the catalyst for escalating local conflicts on many worlds. The water-covered planet of Mon Calamari had been a tinderbox for centuries, as cultural differences between the native Mon Calamari and Quarren had threatened to spill into full-scale fighting throughout their long history. When the Clone Wars erupted, the Confederacy of Independent Systems exploited the long-standing resentment between the two cultures, and pushed the planet into civil war.

[...]

When the Separatist crisis that predated the Clone Wars sparked whispers of impending war, the Knights intensified their training, and brought back the arms and combat skills that made them legendary. The Confederacy-backed Quarren Isolationist League brought the war to Mon Calamari, and the Knights were there to protect the surface cities from their contentious cousins. The Knights teamed up with the clone forces led by Jedi Master Kit Fisto.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/tundradowmeia/?id=eu

Quote
Senator Dowmeia took office following the censuring of Senator Tikkes, a corrupt Quarren Senator accused of profiting from slaving ventures in the Outer Rim Territories. Tikkes was placed under house arrest while such charges were investigated, but he fled Coruscant and disappeared to parts unknown, eventually joining with the Confederacy of Independent Systems.

Dowmeia filled the void left by Tikkes' departure. He originally hailed from a different faction of Quarren on Mon Calamari.

:) So:

So, as the subject line implies, does anybody know what is going on with the Quarren? Is there some remote Quarren faction on Shitopia that remains loyal to the Republic when the ones on Mon Calamari align with the Separatists?

Looks like it's the other way round. The Mon Calamari and at least some of the Quarren are Loyalists (apparently making Mon Calamari at least nominally a Loyalist system), and it's only some of the Quarrens who are with the Separatists.
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Offline CorranHorn

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2005, 03:02 AM »
I know Dr.P isn't fond of the EU, but I'd like to bring up a point about the Quarren issue.

First off I know anything in the EU can be refuted by Lucas at anytime, but since what I'm about to bring up hasn't, I think it's valid to point out...

In the EU, they state that a reason the Mon Cals joined the Rebel Alliance was the way that the Quarrens betrayed them by allowing the Empire to have a presence on Mon Calamari. I believe it involved a Quarren bringing down the shields either around the whole planet or one of the main Mon Cal cities.

With that said, does that fit in with the history that Valin has pointed out. Could the betrayal actually be how the Quarrens joined the Separtists and brought war to their world. Or is this betrayal actually by the Quarren allies the Mon Cal had during the Clone Wars and is something that occurs after ROTS?

Some food for thought on this topic I think...

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2005, 03:48 AM »
Hmmm, more chinks in the EU armor. :)

Plus it doesn't jive with Mon Cal AND Quarren being Alliance members (though it doesn't refute it really either, it just doesn't connect without some explaining).  I think it's all very confusing.

Those quoted explanations are not bad at all though, as far as having the story jive with the CW toons...  Perhaps that splinter group of Quarren (the isolationists) are the ones who betray the Mon Cal and Quarren to the EMpire?  Perhaps they switch sides, basically, and become the loyalist group and that ties them to dropping the shields and stuff...  Though some stuff seems to imply that Mon Calamari is a world under seige more than one that is under the thumb of the empire, at least at some point, and that their ship  yards are the main ones pumping out Cruisers for Alliance Fleets...  That's if you believe that line of thinking (that a planet could NOT be subjucated by the Empire, should they want to subjucate a planet). 

All very headache inducing.
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Offline DoctorPadawan

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2005, 09:41 AM »
Nathan, I would just like to extend my deepest gratitude for the obvious research you did to answer my silly question.  You have saved my head from exploding, and that is appreciated.  :)

As for my hatred of the EU in general, I have a few examples of this:

-Sun Crusher/Darksaber/Superweapon of the Week
-Kevin J. Anderson, overall
-The Invincible Yuuzhan Vong
-Ken Palpatine
-Rogue Planet and The Approaching Storm
-The Glove of Vader
-Did I mention Kevin J. Anderson?

There is some stuff I've read that I really enjoyed (Labyrinth of Evil, most of the "Republic" comic series, Zahn's trilogy), but for the most part, EU stuff either bores me out of my mind or makes me want to throw the book/comic/whatever across the room in disgust. 

Anyway, this isn't an EU thread, so I'll stop rambling.  One thing I am curious about other people's feelings on that has to do with both the EU and the films is whether or not people were confused with the Sifo-Dyas thing never being explained.  One of people's main arguments with "The Blair Witch Project" (if they could sit through it) was the fact that you had to read a book and the website to get the background information, and they felt that they shouldn't have to do so in order to get the full film experience.  I'm of the opinion that films should stand alone and not rely on books to get the whole story, but that such supporting materials are interesting to read after you've seen the film and add more depth to them. 

Sifo-Dyas, while being explained in LOE, was never brought up or explained in either AOTC or ROTS past Obi-Wan's report to Mace and Yoda.  I went to see ROTS (number 12) with a cousin last Saturday who is a fan of the films (but not a huge fan) and she was asking me all kinds of questions afterwards, and one of those was "What about the Sifo-Dyas guy?"

So, I guess another focus of this thread could be, when does an EU explanation/backstory *need* to be included in the films in order to make sense to the casual viewer?  In the case of the Quarren, I don't think it's important, but when you mention it in one film, make a huge deal out of it, and then don't even explain it in that film or the next, it's kind of iffy.

Offline Scott

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2005, 12:14 PM »
DP you forgot one on your list:


Offline Nathan

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2005, 08:09 PM »
Another thing that occurred to me: in Republic #50 there are a number of Mon Calamari who side with the Corporate Alliance and fight on the Confederacy side in the Battle of Kamino.

This takes place only a few months after Geonosis, so we can say this was a splinter group of Mon Cals who broke away to join the dissident faction of Quarrens. Besides, that makes more sense than assuming the entirety of each species would all pick the same side.

In the EU, they state that a reason the Mon Cals joined the Rebel Alliance was the way that the Quarrens betrayed them by allowing the Empire to have a presence on Mon Calamari. I believe it involved a Quarren bringing down the shields either around the whole planet or one of the main Mon Cal cities.

With that said, does that fit in with the history that Valin has pointed out. Could the betrayal actually be how the Quarrens joined the Separtists and brought war to their world. Or is this betrayal actually by the Quarren allies the Mon Cal had during the Clone Wars and is something that occurs after ROTS?


Interesting. Personally I like the first explanation, but either one could work quite nicely.

Nathan, I would just like to extend my deepest gratitude for the obvious research you did to answer my silly question.  You have saved my head from exploding, and that is appreciated.  :)

No problem. It's what I do. 8)

I recalled seeing that stuff in the Databank previously so all I had to do was pull up those entries and cut & paste. :)

Quote
One thing I am curious about other people's feelings on that has to do with both the EU and the films is whether or not people were confused with the Sifo-Dyas thing never being explained.  One of people's main arguments with "The Blair Witch Project" (if they could sit through it) was the fact that you had to read a book and the website to get the background information, and they felt that they shouldn't have to do so in order to get the full film experience.  I'm of the opinion that films should stand alone and not rely on books to get the whole story, but that such supporting materials are interesting to read after you've seen the film and add more depth to them. 

Sifo-Dyas, while being explained in LOE, was never brought up or explained in either AOTC or ROTS past Obi-Wan's report to Mace and Yoda.  I went to see ROTS (number 12) with a cousin last Saturday who is a fan of the films (but not a huge fan) and she was asking me all kinds of questions afterwards, and one of those was "What about the Sifo-Dyas guy?"

So, I guess another focus of this thread could be, when does an EU explanation/backstory *need* to be included in the films in order to make sense to the casual viewer?  In the case of the Quarren, I don't think it's important, but when you mention it in one film, make a huge deal out of it, and then don't even explain it in that film or the next, it's kind of iffy.

I agree that the film should stand on its own, with the spinoffs being supplementary. I love many spinoffs (in this case the SW EU) but I am under no illusions as to its role in the food chain.

The impression I had was that the Sifo-Dyas explanation was initially supposed to be in ROTS but was cut due to length/editing constraints. It does bug me, but in retrospect I see how there were a number of more major plot elements that needed to be covered. (Though the way the Qui-Gon revelation was botched still boggles my mind. ::))

By the way, here's an editorial by Neal Stephenson which covers this very topic.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 08:10 PM by Valin Kenobi »
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Offline Dressel Rebel

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2005, 11:19 PM »
My understanding is pretty much that the Quarren and Mon Calamari are warring with each other: the Mon are on the side of the Rebels/Republic and the Quarren on the side of the Empire/Separatists.
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Offline inadvertent imitation

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #9 on: July 1, 2005, 03:35 AM »
I just figured a business run by the Quarren aligned themselves with the Seperatists and the government allied themselves with the Republic.

Or they're playing both sides, selling tech and weapons to both sides.  ??? :P
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #10 on: July 1, 2005, 02:50 PM »
More from the Databank:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/meenatills/?id=eu

Quote
The people of Mon Calamari weathered great political upheaval during the Clone Wars. Their Senate representative, Tikkes, proved to be a Separatist turncoat. This Quarren nearly dragged the entire planet into the Confederacy fold during the start of the conflict. This sparked a civil war beneath the oceans as the Quarren Isolation League did battle with the Jedi-backed Mon Calamari Knights.

With the signing of a peace accord between the Quarren and the Mon Calamari, a new resolution was passed that saw the planet be represented jointly in the Senate by dignitaries from both species. By the time of the Clone Wars' end, this office would be jointly held by Senators Tundra Dowmeia and Meena Tills. For much of the conflict, their administration was rife with Separatist spies.

Explains why we see both Mon Calamari and Quarren senators in Episode III.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #11 on: July 3, 2005, 01:11 AM »
My understanding is pretty much that the Quarren and Mon Calamari are warring with each other: the Mon are on the side of the Rebels/Republic and the Quarren on the side of the Empire/Separatists.

It's incredibly more complex than that I think, especially given what I'm reading in this thread which goes beyond even what I'd originally thought...  Very confusing, but in the end it does make a lot of sense, hashes out some things we see in the film, and ties into the classic trilogy (and the EU around it, should you "believe" that).  Sounds like Mon Calamari was a real cluster-f during the Clone Wars...

Come the time of the Rebellion I like to view the planet as unified, and supportive to the Alliance overall, with maybe just some bad blood between species flaring up now and then.
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #12 on: July 3, 2005, 02:01 AM »
My understanding is pretty much that the Quarren and Mon Calamari are warring with each other: the Mon are on the side of the Rebels/Republic and the Quarren on the side of the Empire/Separatists.

It's incredibly more complex than that I think, especially given what I'm reading in this thread which goes beyond even what I'd originally thought...

Particulary since you can't accurately make a one-to-one correlation between the Rebels & Republic and between the Empire & Separatists.

Sure the Rebels were trying to restore the lost ideals of the Republic. But many Republic Loyalists went right along into the Empire, considering by this point in the transition it was barely more than a name change.

And if anything you'd expect the survivors of the Seppies to go over to the Alliance side to continue fighting the Empire/Republic.

All very messy really. Although dramatically/creatively/artistically speaking I find this more satisfying than a simple cut-and-dried "Quarrens = Seppies/Empire and Mon Cals = Republicans/Rebels" explanation. It's more like real life this way.

Quote
Very confusing, but in the end it does make a lot of sense, hashes out some things we see in the film, and ties into the classic trilogy (and the EU around it, should you "believe" that).  Sounds like Mon Calamari was a real cluster-f during the Clone Wars...

Indeed. In fact, I could envision an entire novel or comic miniseries that hammers out what happened on Mon Calamari in this time period. That's something I would love to read. No, really. :)
« Last Edit: July 3, 2005, 02:05 AM by Valin Kenobi »
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Offline dafoo

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Re: Whose Side Are You On Anyway?
« Reply #13 on: July 3, 2005, 05:04 PM »
Well it seems how the two sides were aligned during the Prequels is well fleshed out.

The disconnect is how'd the Quarrens end up with the Empire and the Mon Cals with the Rebels.

Perhaps the mass majority of the Mon Cals had a special affinity towards the Jedi and seeing them betrayed set them towards helping the Rebellios Senators (Organa, Mothma) to bring back the republic.

And it seems the Quarren factoion that was with the Seperatists had great hatred towards the Mon Cals, so it isn't too hard to believe that they'd sell out the Surface Cities to the Empire out of spite...which in turn would greatly heighten the strife between the entire population of both sides...then Civil War?

During the Old Triology the Mon Cals are totally with the republic, while the Quarren's are relegated to 'neutral/bounty hunter under class' positions.  like Jabba the Hutt and the like.

And further, about the Mon Cal cruisers. They were talked about as having been refurbished luxury liners. Thus, there isn't a need to have them in docks above Mon Cal and under Imperial attack

anywho.  I flee for now...
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