Author Topic: Revenge of the Sith made all EU wrong!  (Read 1320 times)

Offline Matt_Fury

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Revenge of the Sith made all EU wrong!
« on: August 8, 2005, 01:22 AM »
Well, from Heir of the Empire on anyway.

Yoda said that Qui-Gon Jinn found a path to imortality, so basically, anyone who learned this from him (Yoda, Obi-Wan and in a round about way Anakin) would be around forever.

In Heir to the Empire, Obi-Wan appears to Luke Skywalker in a dream and says that the bonds between him and Luke was going away and he would not be able to communicate with him anymore thus leaving Luke on his own to restore the Jedi order to the galaxy.

Bull-****.

If we go by what ROTS puts forth, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin and even Qui-gon could be around to advise Luke and the other Jedi in all the problems of what the Jedi should do, act and whatnot throughout every EU story post ROTJ!

Now I'm not going on some crazy book burning crusade or anything, personally there are many EU stories I really enjoy, but this little tidbit's been kind of bugging me lately.  Granted none of the authors knew that this was how GL was going to establish how there could be Jedi spirits running around in the OT, but they could've made it possible to communicate with them, and possibly even train the technique to future Jedi.

Think of how different the NJO series would've been if we could've seen Anakin Solo again?

Oh well, I just thought I'd share my thoughts on this and hear what the rest of you would have to say on the subject.  :)
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Offline CorranHorn

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Re: Revenge of the Sith made all EU wrong!
« Reply #1 on: August 9, 2005, 07:44 PM »
This has been one of the problems I have had with Lucas. He puts his big thumbs up for all of these EU stories, but can't even bother to integrate them coherently into the prequels. I just find that to be extremely ******, that he'll make all the money off the backs (hands really) of the EU authors, but will totally disavow what they have come up with when it doesn't suit him.

Ok with the rant out of the way, here's how I see the revelation in ROTS working in conjunction with how Jedi spirits work in the EU...

While Yoda indicates Qui-Gon has found a "path to immortality" it doesn't mean he has the ability to communicate with the corporeal world indefinitely. Taking a look at the Marvel comics of the 80's, they had a higher plane of existence where Jedi went to when they died, an aether if you will. Here is where they would "live" for eternity communing with the greater Force, but their connection to the mortal coil is limited only to a certain amount of time. This would be so that they do not effect the physical plane, as they could accidently use the knowledge that they have gained to adversely effect the physical plane. This would either be a self-imposed restriction that the Jedi must place upon themselves, or more likely a restriction by the Force to keep the proper balance between the two planes. That is why Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin only speak to Luke and Leia for only a few years after ROTJ.

Also I don't believe the Qui-Gon is the first to discover the ability to communicate from the netherworld, as EU establishes that Jedi and Sith in the past could do just that. I think he re-discovered the ability, something that was lost to the Jedi over the millenia.

Now as for Anakin Solo, I thought I recalled that at some point in the New Jedi Order, Jacen had a vision that equated to Anakin speaking to him from the beyond. I might be wrong on that, but it has been a while since I read most of the books...

Offline Matt_Fury

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Re: Revenge of the Sith made all EU wrong!
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2005, 07:14 PM »
It wasn't Anakin that Jacen talked with, it was Vergere, when she sacrificed herself so that Jacen could get away.

Good points in your post Corran, but I still see some inconsistencies.  Qui-gon had been dead for 13 years by the end of ROTS when Yoda and Obi-Wan were still able to commune with him, and by Heir to the Empire, Obi-Wan had only been dead for 8 and could no longer keep in contact with Luke....Yoda was nowhere to be found.

I guess we don't know how long Qui-Gon kept Obi-Wan company on Tatooine, but still, you'd think Yoda and Obi-Wan could've talked with Luke and the other Jedi longer.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Revenge of the Sith made all EU wrong!
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2005, 12:56 AM »
Perhaps Obi-Wan's not being totally "honest" with Luke once more?  Maybe his leaving is a means of detatching the "strings" that tie him to Luke (attachment being a no-no by the views of the Jedi and all that) and so Obi-Wan's just trying to make it easier on Luke by letting go?  Letting Luke develope and grow on his own now. 

I know I wouldn't trust that old fogy. :)
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Offline Jediknight760071

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Re: Revenge of the Sith made all EU wrong!
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2005, 07:43 AM »
You're reaching.

Offline Ryan

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Re: Revenge of the Sith made all EU wrong!
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2005, 01:47 AM »
The way I see it, the Jedi that have learned to live on in spirit form are a lot like the ascended Ancients in Stargate. They have the power to communicate with corporeal beings but the choose not to because everyone must reach the path to enlightenment themselves. I think the Jedi must have a similar philosophy. They want Luke and the future Jedi to find the way themselves and not be reliant on a bunch of old dead guys. Whether or not the others would try and stop them, like the Ancients do in Stargate, I'm not sure. It makes sense that they would though, in a lot of Sci-Fi higher beings do not interfere with the little guys. That's just my intereptation anyways.
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Offline CorranHorn

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Re: Revenge of the Sith made all EU wrong!
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2005, 02:37 AM »
The way I see it, the Jedi that have learned to live on in spirit form are a lot like the ascended Ancients in Stargate. They have the power to communicate with corporeal beings but the choose not to because everyone must reach the path to enlightenment themselves. I think the Jedi must have a similar philosophy. They want Luke and the future Jedi to find the way themselves and not be reliant on a bunch of old dead guys. Whether or not the others would try and stop them, like the Ancients do in Stargate, I'm not sure. It makes sense that they would though, in a lot of Sci-Fi higher beings do not interfere with the little guys. That's just my intereptation anyways.

I agree and I think that's sorta the point JJ tried to get across. Having the deceased Jedi continuously communicating with the living Jedi wouldn't necessarily help them grow as Jedi (the living Jedi that is). There has to be a point where the deceased, or as Ryan said the ascended Jedi move on, to perhaps contemplate the greater Force and leave behind all that there is in the mortal world.

Matt: as for the Anakin visions Jacen had, you're right they weren't real. According to the new book "The Joiner King" Jacen had 2 visions of Anakin, one that was induced by a vong beast on Coruscant as a means of a trap, and the other was Zonama Sekot communicating with Jacen.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Revenge of the Sith made all EU wrong!
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2005, 05:43 PM »
Exactly...  I don't think that's reaching at all.  That's growth.  You can't have your master hold your hand for life.  It's like when Luke went to confront Vader/Emperor...

Why wouldn't/couldn't Obi-Wan help him there?  Seems to me that your own free-will and growth are important aspects of becoming a Jedi Master.  You have to grow, and you can't do that if you're constantly being hand-held by someone...  Maybe the dead Jedi realized that and Obi-Wan saw it was Luke's time to become his own man and re-establish the Jedi Order as he saw fit.

I find it very interesting then the way that the NJO comes about as allowing attachment and stuff...  The perils still exist for them that they had previously, but it sorta curbs the possibility of Vader-ish things happening.  I dig that way that EU tied in sorta (but not really) with ROTS.  Freaky.
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Revenge of the Sith made all EU wrong!
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2005, 10:39 PM »
I agree with JJ, Corran, and Sith Lord Chaos' interpretations.


And even if you don't buy the "cutting the strings with the mortal world" explanation, here's another theory:

We know Qui-Gon hadn't completely worked out the whole immortality thing, which is why he could only speak as a voice and not manifest as a spirit. I gather he, Yoda, and Ben worked together on the Force ghost trick (but I think I read somewhere that Qui-Gon would never be able to do more than the voice). So maybe the best they could do was keep it up for a decade or so, and were unable to sustain it beyond that point, because Qui-Gon hadn't received the complete instruction and the other two had only learned it secondhand.


For Qui-Gon's 13+ years versus Ben's 8, there's two possible explanations:

a) It takes less effort to appear in voice form so he could keep it up longer (seems plausible to me)

b) Qui-Gon had been taught directly by the Shaman of the Whills, whereas Ben only learned it secondhand from QG. Could be the knowledge was diluted or lost something in translation. (A really weak explanation, I know.)


As for Yoda ... well maybe after 900 years and two major wars he was just burnt out and wanted to wash his hands of the entire thing. He probably figured Luke and Ben's spirit had things under control.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2005, 10:45 PM by Valin Kenobi »
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Offline jedipurge

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Re: Revenge of the Sith made all EU wrong!
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2005, 03:45 PM »
lots of great "point of views" here, but all in all nobody from tim zahn on had any idea what lucas had in store for the prequels they only did their best guess and effort to continue the series and i'm sure a lot of us out there appreciate their efforts even if you're not a big EU fan.  their efforts have brought about the rebirth of the Star Wars franchise who knows if tim hadn't written anything or if others hadn't followed him if there would even had been prequels, it was what over 10 years since rotj had come out till heir to the empire.  star wars had all but been forgoten about.  BUT and it's a big BUT after the prequels are now complete there are big flaws in the connections between the films and the EU.
if anybody wants to make a list please do, i'm tempted to start my own but i don't think i'd have the time. 
so here's a couple things:
the emporer doesn't look like that cause he's so filled with the dark side, that it has scewed up his face he got shot in the face with lightning, and following that why would his clones begin to look like that even if they aged faster or were flawed.

r2-d2 knows everything-do i have to say anymore.

midichlorians?  has that even been brought up in the EU?  i'm sure there's not a that big of mystery as to what they are.

clone(s)/ing-big deal made in dark force rising about them running around but it's been going on for years and according to that guy on Kamino in EP II it was there "finest yet" so it's not even like the Republic was the first to have a clone army.  i know somewhere they tried to come up with an explanation for this but to me it came off really really weak.

luke & leia have real family out there and i'm not talking adoptive or step family but blood relatives.  padme's family was at her funeral.  well they don't know who there mother was so how are they supposed to know about?  them you might say.  once again R2, and you're not telling me that obi, yoda, and especially Anakin seeing how important family was to him didn't tell luke or leia about that.  none of them could give the super twins her name?

now i know i'm ranting and raving here and it's not to put down the EU world or those who are fans of it, i myself was one until the whole Vong thing came about.  but the EU seems outdated if that's even the right term to use, now i know you can't just say okay let's start over again, but something has to change.
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