Author Topic: Are Stormtroopers Clones?  (Read 5679 times)

Offline Hes No Good to Me Dead

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Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« on: August 18, 2005, 10:14 PM »
I need to settle a bet. Are all the stormtroopers clones? Or are the recruits?

Offline Jediknight760071

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2005, 10:22 PM »
No one's ever gonna have a straight (accepted) answer for you.


EDIT: I told you so! :)  :-*
« Last Edit: December 8, 2005, 01:19 AM by Jediknight760071 »

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2005, 10:50 PM »
There's several ways of looking at this...

-The "Official" stance Lucasfilm Ltd. currently takes with this issue is that Stormtroopers (within the classic era) are a mix of Recruits, and Clones of various hosts (Fett Clones among other hosts chosen intelligently and beaurecratic back-scratchingly).  This makes EU jive on all levels with the films, etc...

-Lucas probably intended them to be Clones.  Intent means nothing in Star Wars though other than it's nice if that's what you agree with or not.  Interpretation then's all up to the "critic" if you will.

-The films give no definite answer of course, other than they're Clones up to E3, and then come E4 they're seemingly different guys at least to an extent.  To that end, you could just as easily counter LFL's position by saying no they're all recruits because in the end it's an EU debate, not one within the films.

For myself, I currently hold that they're recruits.  E3 ended with some pretty happy campers in the Senate...  I think the Empire was a popular movement, and was widely accepted around the galaxy save for some idealists, some stronger-willed beings, some isolationist planets, etc...  Thus the Rebellion Nucleus is made up of those types.

Lucasfilm's little explanation of everything isn't bad though...  It keeps EU storylines like Kyle Katarn's, Bren Tantor's, or whoever else that has a Stormtrooper history, right in line with the films it just twists what we thought was the truth around some, and introduces Clones into the Classic Trilogy.  That's fine, it just isn't what I currently personally go with, but that's me.

If I were to go with that explanation, I think I'd twist it to my own liking some...  Something along the lines of Officers within the Stormtroopers being sentient recruits, and Stormtrooper training/leading being a major stepping stone in an Officer's career in the military...  Like at one point Veers donned the armor and led a squad in battle personally.  Then the "lower" Stormtroopers are all Clones of Jango (I don't like the introduction of multiple hosts and I don't necessarilly buy into the "degrading genetic material" bull**** about why no Jango Clones exist, etc.).

That's if I were to personally go with the LFL explanation, which I don't...  yet.  Recruits has worked fine for me.  It makes customizing more fun too when you can pick whatever face you want under the helmet. :)
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Offline Hes No Good to Me Dead

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2005, 12:18 AM »
I guess neither of us a going to win the bet.

If they are recruits, why are they only recruting humaniods? Surely there would be a few alien looking creatures that would like to join the Empire? This alone lead be to believe they were still cloning well after the Empire was created.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2005, 01:14 AM »
If the Empire's instituting xenophobic/speciesist policies though as its power is consolidated though, then alien cultures become less important to their military machine.  But there again it depends if you agree with them being xenophobic and also depends on how you view humans in the galaxy...  Like if they're the dominant species by a long shot or what.  They certainly seem it.

I'm all for the idea that the Empire has anti-alien views and all that stuff, but some disagree with that because the films don't really say it outright plus the Alliance is sporting a ton of Aliens either until the battle of Endor we see them...  But all-human (or nearly all human) institutes within the Alliance are definitely possible (especially if humans are, again, the dominant species of the galaxy).  It's all very complex though because it's so easy for nobody to agree.

I guess the bet is still open though man. :) 
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Offline Hes No Good to Me Dead

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2005, 10:40 AM »
The xenophobic theme could have possibly been in the mind of Mr Lucas when he was writing the scripts. I mean there are too many comparisions to WWII Germany for it too be a conincidence. The fact that they are called Stormtroopers suggests enough.

I don't know nearly as much as most people when it comes to the Star Wars EU, but I'm going for the theory that they are clones.

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2005, 04:24 PM »
Stormtrooper's a generic term really though, not one that is nazi-centric, but Lucas has said he definitely had tied the Empire to Nazi Germany in several ways...  He's never said they were xenophobic though, and many blame EU for that... 

Still, it's what I believe...  But what Lucas meant, who knows.  The guy's so all over the place sometimes.
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Offline DoctorPadawan

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2005, 07:28 PM »
Today's magic question: can DoctorPadawan attempt to explain his own theory as to the origins of the OT Stormtroopers to the rest of the boards without them thinking him crazy for utilizing a Michael Keaton movie as one of his key points of support?  Tune in to the next paragraph and find out!  ;D

Okay, here's my theory on the OT Stormtroopers, which isn't so much about them, but about "what happened to the Jango clones and why don't the Stormtroopers sound like Jango?"

In AOTC (23 years before ANH), we are first introduced to the cloning facilities on Kamino.  The "ready" batch of Clones there had been created ten years prior to Obi-Wan landing there.  As a result of the growth acceleration, these clones were approximately 20 years old, which basically makes clear that the clone growth rate is double that of a normal human.  Okay, no problem so far.  The Clones resemble a young Jango Fett in facial appearance, and are direct genetic replication of Jango.

In ROTS, when we see Cody without his helmet, he and many of the other clones standing around in the ship look like Jango (obviously, since Temeura Morrison played "them").  By this point, the Clones from AOTC would have aged another six years, making them 26 years old.  I think you see where I'm going with this.

Come ANH, 33 years have passed since the creation of the first batch of Clones on Kamino.  This would make the Clones that took part in the Battle of Geonosis 66 years of age, and most likely receiving the Empire's equivalent of SSI by the time Luke Skywalker leaves Tatooine.  Even the last of Jango's 1st Gen Clones (those that were made from his DNA directly; this will be important in a minute) would be reaching their mid-50s by the time the Tantive IV is captured by Vader, so they would either be retired from field duty, or they would be in the upper echelons of the military command, overseeing things from a non-direct base of operations.

Now, everyone pretty much goes by the theory that the ST in the OT are a combination of Clones from other genetic templates and conscripts from the Academy we hear mentioned.  What isn't addressed is why they became such horrible shots and only about a 10th as efficient as the Clones in the PT.  And that's where Michael Keaton comes in.

In the movie "Multiplicity" (which many of you may have seen), Michael Keaton's character creates a clone of himself, which works out fairly well, but since it is a copy, it isn't as "good" as the original (Keaton).  More clones are made, and one of the clones (the fifth one, I think) is basically functionally retarded because he is the clone of a clone of a clone of a clone of the original host.  Try photocopying a fifth gen letter and it's not going to be all that clear. 

So, I think that when Jango died, the genetics he left behind were pretty much tapped out by the end of the Clone Wars.  The Emperor, wanting his mindless controllable army to be ready and having already conquered the galaxy, didn't put so much time into the genetics side of things, and probably just told Lama Su and the Kaminoans to go ahead and clone the first gen Clones, after all, what harm could it do?

So, as the 20 years between the end of the Clone Wars and the beginning of ANH passed, the Kaminoans had to keep cranking out copies of copies of copies of copies, which were naturally not going to be as good as the first gen copies or Jango Fett, for that matter.  By the time we get to Tatooine in Episode IV, the Stormtroopers that are still Clones of Jango are probably a fifth gen copy of a copy of a copy of a copy, or a functionally retarded Michael Keaton, so to speak.  Hence why they don't sound like Jango, hence why they can't shoot straight, hence why they are lucky they can walk in a straight line, and hence why the Jedi Mind Trick works so easily on these "military masters" when Obi-Wan tricks them in Mos Eisley.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is my crackpot theory on the Clone = Stormtrooper debate.  You can commence your laughter now. :)

Offline Hes No Good to Me Dead

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2005, 08:28 PM »
I wished they had cloned Micheal Keaton and used him in Batman III, IV and V. They might have had to change the title of V to Batman Retards.

Offline CHEWIE

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2005, 11:46 PM »
DP, that's a great theory.  Now I need to go see that Michael Keaton movie.

 :P

Offline Jesse James

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2005, 12:06 AM »
Quote
What isn't addressed is why they became such horrible shots and only about a 10th as efficient as the Clones in the PT. 

There are EU answers to this though...  And some film evidence that discounts Stormies being "bad" at their job as well.

First, the Dark Forces game was the first EU attempt at explaining the E-11's ineffective accuracy.  It fits with what the E-11's actually earth-based counterpart is.  It's a small, sub-machine gun.  For WW2 buffs it's the equivalent of a Thompson compared to a Garand...  The Garand was a much more efficient weapon at long ranges and in squads, but the Thompson was a one-man wrecking crew in short-ranges, and a good single-man support weapon for a squad.

Dark Forces shows the E-11 as being not WILDLY inaccurate, but it's not a gun you aim unless you "modify" it with a tactical scope (arguably this is a secondary setting for the gun, kinda like the stun setting they have, that requires modular parts to enhance the gun...  It's still not perfect long-range weaponry though).

The Clones have a similar support weapon too...  The one that climbs the crabdroid and empties a clip is seemingly similar to the E-11.

So DarkForces (and subsequent games in that series) have sort of established the E-11 as just an inaccurate gun...  If we take those into account, it works.  They're rapid fire, "spray and pray" type weapons, and if all your guys are carrying that it's a crazy scenario.  Plus the E-11 seems to be a sidearm of some sort in the Empire as well...  Some Sandtroopers carry them while also carrying a larger, longer-barreled weapon that is presumeably more accurate.

It's possible the gun such as Chewie's Stormie rifle he runs around on the Death Star with, or other "Sandtrooper" weapons are then the weapons issued an Imperial "in the field" while the E-11 becomes somewhat a secondary weapon in some cases.

The gun Chewie has, interestingly enough, had a rack of them in the Hangar Control Room...  Could be that the more accurate gun is there to fire from the control room should a situation like that arise.  A wide open space like that hangar, and that'd make perfect sense really to have a little stash of those from a high vantage point like that.

Anyway, second point about Stormtrooper accuracy...  They're only seemingly inaccurate with main characters in Star Wars.  That I can buy into as "it's just a movie".  I mean, it has to be that way really, so reality sort of goes out the window.  "Heroes Luck" is what I chalk it up to then.

But when the EMpire's attacking Hoth, clearing out the Tantive IV, or frying Ewoks...  They're fairly efficient with the E-11.  The Tantive IV troops are mowed down like crabgrass.  Hoth troopers fall back from not only armor assault but also a noted mechanized infantry push who seemed armed with support guns and E-11's exclusively (from what we could see...  Unseen in any SW situation is always a major variable to consider...  The troops we do see are clearing a "tight" space out though so the E-11 does make sense there again).

Lots of possibilities for either argument as to Clones, recruits, or a mix of the two...  I've always felt Stormtroopers got shafted on their efficiency though.  When compared to their Rebel enemies (who are quite capable soldiers themselves depending on if you buy into EU or not), the Stormies are deadly efficient.
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Offline Nathan

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2005, 03:00 PM »
-The "Official" stance Lucasfilm Ltd. currently takes with this issue is that Stormtroopers (within the classic era) are a mix of Recruits, and Clones of various hosts (Fett Clones among other hosts chosen intelligently and beaurecratic back-scratchingly).  This makes EU jive on all levels with the films, etc...

Yep, that's what I follow, since it's a great catchall explanation.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2005, 03:01 PM by Valin Kenobi »
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Offline blaster_e11

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #12 on: October 7, 2005, 07:10 AM »
i see this question (among others) is a fascinating one among star wars fans (at least on message boards)  ;)
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Offline Mr.el lucco

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2005, 09:05 PM »
There are some recruits and some clones. kyle was once a storm trooper there are also maney others that are not clones. SORRY.I mean it.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2005, 01:03 PM by Mr.el lucco »

Offline JesseVader08

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Re: Are Stormtroopers Clones?
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2005, 10:50 PM »
There is absolutely no need to post in such a manner.