Author Topic: The Avengers (SPOILERS)  (Read 69428 times)

Offline JediJman

  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 17029
  • I don't get drunk, I get awesome.
    • View Profile
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #510 on: May 9, 2019, 10:40 AM »
I also liked the nod to the comics with Cap saying "Hail Hydra."

Not sure that really had anything to do with Hydra-Cap.  I thought it was a funny/easy plot device to get the case from Rumlo based on a very similar run-in from the Winter Soldier flick.  All those guys in the elevator were Hydra agents posing as Shield agents. 

In the comics, the cosmic cube (Tesseract in MCU) is used to reset history making Cap a secret hydra agent all along.  He doesn't know that his history was reset and actually believes Hydra's ideology.  Coincidentally, Black Widow gets killed trying to assassinate him.  I guess everyone wants her dead.
Climbed a mountain & never came back. I will not quit & I always fight back 
From this moment for all my life. What could I say? Was born to be this way. And what could I say?  Just livin' for today

Offline BillCable

  • Jedi General
  • *
  • Posts: 9883
  • CreatureCantina.com SUCKS!!
    • View Profile
    • CreatureCantina.com
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #511 on: May 9, 2019, 02:56 PM »
I'm certain the writers knew of the uproar over Cap's Hail Hydra in the comics, and that was part of the reason they wrote that scene that way.  It's layered.  They're both doing a fun riff on the Elevator Scene from Winter Soldier, and they'd doing a tongue-in-cheek reference to the comics/meme.
Bill Cable - Steeler Fan & Star Wars Collector
  http://CreatureCantina.com       
"Cable is incapable of contributing anything positive to this world" - cstoj

Offline Matt_Fury

  • Jedi General
  • *
  • Posts: 7808
  • I aim to misbehave.
    • View Profile
    • Every Action Figure Parody has a beginning.
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #512 on: May 9, 2019, 10:11 PM »
I'm certain the writers knew of the uproar over Cap's Hail Hydra in the comics, and that was part of the reason they wrote that scene that way.  It's layered.  They're both doing a fun riff on the Elevator Scene from Winter Soldier, and they'd doing a tongue-in-cheek reference to the comics/meme.

Everyone in that Elevator was part of the elevator scene in Winter Soldier!  :D
Peacekeeper, when it absolutely, positively has to be nuked in 30 minutes or less.  Or the next nuke's free!

Offline Nicklab

  • Jedi Sentinel
  • *
  • Posts: 11550
  • I saw we fight!
    • View Profile
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #513 on: May 12, 2019, 11:32 AM »
That whole segment was a fantastic callback to "The Winter Soldier".  I seriously didn't expect to see Robert Redford reprising his role as Secretary Pierce, especially since he had said he was retiring from acting when he was promoting his last film, "The Old Man With The Gun".  And it looked like a lot of the actors from the

In that whole 2012 part of the time heist Loki's disappearance was actually something I was happy to see.  Tom Hiddleston has been amazing in that role and I was genuinely shocked when Thanos killed Loki in "Infinity War" and then taunted him about staying dead.  And hasn't there been an announcement that there will be a Loki tv series on Disney+?  They had to bring him back somehow.
"Call up a Hammerhead Corvette.  I have an idea."

Feedback

Offline JediJman

  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 17029
  • I don't get drunk, I get awesome.
    • View Profile
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #514 on: May 13, 2019, 11:41 AM »
That whole segment was a fantastic callback to "The Winter Soldier".  I seriously didn't expect to see Robert Redford reprising his role as Secretary Pierce, especially since he had said he was retiring from acting when he was promoting his last film, "The Old Man With The Gun".  And it looked like a lot of the actors from the

In that whole 2012 part of the time heist Loki's disappearance was actually something I was happy to see.  Tom Hiddleston has been amazing in that role and I was genuinely shocked when Thanos killed Loki in "Infinity War" and then taunted him about staying dead.  And hasn't there been an announcement that there will be a Loki tv series on Disney+?  They had to bring him back somehow.

Yes, there is a Disney Streaming show lined up to star Loki, and another with Winter Soldier and Falcon.  I'm curious to see how these shape up and if they'll still follow a "core reality" after Endgame.  They have been so good about tying all the films and TV into the same universe, but anything they do now could be part of a divergent reality.

Speaking of which, if changes in the past cause divergent realities, then how does old cap get back to the Avengers at the end of Endgame?  Wouldn't that have just created a divergent reality with an old cap?  I feel like I need to watch Endgame again and take notes on what they said about how the changes in time/realities actually work.
Climbed a mountain & never came back. I will not quit & I always fight back 
From this moment for all my life. What could I say? Was born to be this way. And what could I say?  Just livin' for today

Offline Matt_Fury

  • Jedi General
  • *
  • Posts: 7808
  • I aim to misbehave.
    • View Profile
    • Every Action Figure Parody has a beginning.
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #515 on: May 13, 2019, 04:37 PM »
Speaking of which, if changes in the past cause divergent realities, then how does old cap get back to the Avengers at the end of Endgame?  Wouldn't that have just created a divergent reality with an old cap?  I feel like I need to watch Endgame again and take notes on what they said about how the changes in time/realities actually work.

When he stayed with Peggy, that created a divergent reality...but he still had the suit and Pym particles to return to the original reality.
Peacekeeper, when it absolutely, positively has to be nuked in 30 minutes or less.  Or the next nuke's free!

Offline Muftak

  • Jedi Padawan
  • *
  • Posts: 790
  • Cardboard Entrepreneur
    • View Profile
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #516 on: May 13, 2019, 05:22 PM »
Speaking of which, if changes in the past cause divergent realities, then how does old cap get back to the Avengers at the end of Endgame?  Wouldn't that have just created a divergent reality with an old cap?  I feel like I need to watch Endgame again and take notes on what they said about how the changes in time/realities actually work.

When he stayed with Peggy, that created a divergent reality...but he still had the suit and Pym particles to return to the original reality.

But if he had returned via the suit, it would have been to the spot they were waiting for him at. My take was that Cap had always been Peggy's mystery husband, and that was always a part of the standard MCU timeline, so nothing diverged, he just lived an overlapping life.

Offline JediJman

  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 17029
  • I don't get drunk, I get awesome.
    • View Profile
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #517 on: May 14, 2019, 12:57 PM »
Well, this puts us squarely in the realm of "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"  My understanding was that any change in the past creates a divergent timeline, no matter how insignificant or noticeable the change is.  If Cap went back in time and fought beside original Cap in WWII, that would for sure be a divergent timeline.  The fact that he hides away in a house relatively unnoticed by anyone but Peggy shouldn't impact the laws of time, space, or alternate dimensions.  That should still create a divergent reality.  And yes, if he lives in the divergent reality, then uses the suit to get back to the original dimension he left, then he should by all rights appear in the same place he left, just like baby Ant-Man, right?  Or are the Avengers we see at the end of the movie actually in a divergent reality?

There is a culling of the divergent realities in the comics, where a chain reaction starts causing divergent realities to "collide." I didn't follow it very closely, but I believe its an incursion centered around Earth.  Both Earth's exist in close proximity for a short time, but if nothing is done, both Earth's and their respective universes are obliterated.  However, if one of the Earth's is destroyed, that alternate universe also dies, but the surviving Earth and its universe are maintained.  Well, until another incursion hits.  It was really just a convenient way to start cleaning up all these abstract realities/dimensions.  I think that story is too complex to do in the movie universe, but this alternate dimension/multiverse stuff opens the doorway for that kind of scenario down the road.  As I mentioned previously, whatever we're seeing at any point now may not be the "core" dimension.  I'm betting we get some hints at this in the new Spiderman flick.
Climbed a mountain & never came back. I will not quit & I always fight back 
From this moment for all my life. What could I say? Was born to be this way. And what could I say?  Just livin' for today

Offline Muftak

  • Jedi Padawan
  • *
  • Posts: 790
  • Cardboard Entrepreneur
    • View Profile
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #518 on: May 14, 2019, 03:12 PM »
 ;D This is why time travel stuff is fun!

I agree that Cap travelling to the past to have the chance to "live his life" ought to create a divergent timeline, since there's no other way to account for there always being 2 Steves somewhere from when he arrives until he leaves to put the Stones back where they came from.

...But...

It is possible the MCU we have seen play out throughout all the movies is a "divergent timeline" already. That is, there was a prior timeline we didn't see where Peggy didn't get married, and Cap just didn't show up after taking the Stones away. When post-Endgame Steve showed up in the 1940's, it created the MCU timeline that we saw play out. He was always there in the past, he was just never called out to the viewer. In that sense, he has to go back and live his life to make sure the timeline remains the way we saw it originally.

The other interesting time artifact out there is that when 2014 Thanos jumps into the Endgame timeline and is killed, it creates another "divergent timeline" where he disappeared one day and thus never gathered the Stones or did the Snap (that universe will also never have a Guardians of the Galaxy team, since Gamora disappeared too.) But that timeline will have a Black Widow that survives, because she will never need to go back and sacrifice herself to get the Soul Stone (If we keep looking at it, we even see that our Black Widow died in that Thanos-less timeline, presumably minutes before Cap showed up to return the Soul Stone to Red Skull...that would be an interesting scene, huh?)

I haven't followed any of the comics since the 90's, but it seemed at the time, especially in books like "Quasar," the Multiverse was becoming a little too well-traveled and mapped out, so I'm not surprised they tried to find a way to simplify things.

Offline Nicklab

  • Jedi Sentinel
  • *
  • Posts: 11550
  • I saw we fight!
    • View Profile
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #519 on: May 14, 2019, 07:26 PM »
There are some things about Cap and Peggy that definitely leave you scratching your head.  He went to visit her in the retirement home in Winter Soldier, and then he served as a pallbearer at her funeral in Civil War.  But if we're talking about divergent realities, then maybe the Peggy Carter of that prime timeline never did marry the time travelling Steve Rogers?
"Call up a Hammerhead Corvette.  I have an idea."

Feedback

Offline EdSolo

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3836
    • View Profile
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #520 on: May 15, 2019, 07:01 AM »
It is all a bit problematic since they didn't map out the rules besides Tony saying that when you go into the past, that past is now your future.  I think they were all good with the time travel stuff until they pulled the pre-snap Thanos into the future.  We even have what is essentially a grandfather paradox that isn't even addressed.  Older Nebula kills her younger self.  I think that act there shows there has to be divergent timelines. 

Really, I think any time traveling actions that they took causes multiple divergent timelines.  They go back and gather all the Infinity Stones before Thanos can and use them to undo the snap.  Even though Cap goes back and puts the stones back so the timeline can supposedly play out as it had before, there are changes.  Loki escaping is a pretty big one I would say.  Since the attempt to get the Tesseract failed, I would assume Cap went back to the 70's to drop that stone off.  So the "new" timeline where Loki escapes would still occur which is different than what we saw in the first Avengers movie.  Additionally, we don't see how they convert the stones back to the Tesseract, Loki's staff, and the Aether as they were originally found in the prime timeline.

Offline BillCable

  • Jedi General
  • *
  • Posts: 9883
  • CreatureCantina.com SUCKS!!
    • View Profile
    • CreatureCantina.com
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #521 on: May 15, 2019, 07:27 AM »
The best divergent timeline explanation:

Cap goes back to Peggy, creating a divergent timeline.
In that divergent timeline, Tony Stark (or whoever) independently creates time travel.
As an old man, Cap uses that tech to time travel back to HIS past in the original timeline, popping in at the lake shore moments before his past self disappeared.
Bill Cable - Steeler Fan & Star Wars Collector
  http://CreatureCantina.com       
"Cable is incapable of contributing anything positive to this world" - cstoj

Offline JediJman

  • Jedi Guardian
  • *
  • Posts: 17029
  • I don't get drunk, I get awesome.
    • View Profile
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #522 on: May 15, 2019, 09:16 AM »
The best divergent timeline explanation:

Cap goes back to Peggy, creating a divergent timeline.
In that divergent timeline, Tony Stark (or whoever) independently creates time dimensional travel.
As an old man, Cap uses that tech to time travel back to HIS past in the original timeline, popping in at the lake shore moments before after his past self disappeared.

Slight modification, since he wouldn't need to "time" travel...


*SPOILER ALERT*


Pretty sure I read that Mysterio in the upcoming Spiderman movie is from another dimension.  Coincidence or correlation?
Climbed a mountain & never came back. I will not quit & I always fight back 
From this moment for all my life. What could I say? Was born to be this way. And what could I say?  Just livin' for today

Offline EdSolo

  • Jedi Knight
  • *
  • Posts: 3836
    • View Profile
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #523 on: May 16, 2019, 06:46 AM »
The problem is that we don't see Old Cap in the time travel suit.  Additionally, we can't be sure he had enough Pym particles to travel back to drop off the stones, go to marry Peggy and then come back as an old man.  We could assume in alternate timeline he could just go to Hank and get some more, but Hank seems pretty possessive of them.  This could be as headache inducing as all the Terminator timelines.

Offline BillCable

  • Jedi General
  • *
  • Posts: 9883
  • CreatureCantina.com SUCKS!!
    • View Profile
    • CreatureCantina.com
Re: The Avengers (SPOILERS)
« Reply #524 on: May 16, 2019, 09:39 AM »
We don't need to see Old Cap in the quantum suit - it could be in whatever nanoparticle container the suites vanished into when they visited NYC in 2012.
Bill Cable - Steeler Fan & Star Wars Collector
  http://CreatureCantina.com       
"Cable is incapable of contributing anything positive to this world" - cstoj