Author Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)  (Read 165539 times)

Offline JediJman

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #285 on: December 19, 2017, 06:29 PM »
The Death Star could have hyperspaced to be in range within the moon of Yavin instead of orbiting around it. The Empire could have landed the AT-ATs next to the shield generator and blew it up. The Emporer could have blown up the shield generator once the Death Star was active then turn on the rebel ships. The movie wouldn't have a story or be as much fun if these things happened.

Well, I take it from conversations in the movie that you can't hyperspace through a planet or a star.  That's why they have astromechs running calculations and can't instantly jump off to hyperspace at a moment's notice.  It would then make sense that the death star coming out of hyperspace might still need to circle around to get to the side of the planet where the rebel base is.  Walkers and drop ships probably wouldn't come down in range of the rebel base and its guns.  I don't know why the emperor would blow the shield generator, but there's a logical rationale for all of these situations and that's all I ask. 

A huge fleet of ships chasing a few Rebels and not  having any way to catch them isn't remotely logical to me, especially when some of the rebels can zip off to another planet, search for someone, get locked up, escape, and zip back to the rebel ship all while the chase scene is happening.  I can suspend belief on a lot of things, but at some point they have to make sense within the framework/rules of the universe we're watching. 
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #286 on: December 19, 2017, 06:48 PM »
Perfect movie? Not close. Terrible garbage? Calm down

I don't know if I would call the movie garbage.  It's certainly not the worst of the 9 made thus far, but Rotten Tomatoes has an audience score of 55%.  In contrast, TFA holds a score of 88%.  That's a big difference.  There were some cool scenes and I even like a lot of the concepts they were going after, but the final product itself is something of a hot mess in my opinion.  Here's how I'd rank the 9:

#1 - Empire Strikes Back
#2 - New Hope
#3 - Rogue One
#4 - Force Awakens
#5 - Return of the Jedi
#6 - Revenge of the Sith
#7 - Last Jedi
#8 - Attack of the Clones
#9 - Phantom Menace

Maybe my expectations are too high for a SW film, and maybe I'll like it more in a second viewing, but slotting it behind ROTS should give you some indication of what I thought of it as a whole.  I think its fair to also call out that a lot of big SW fans (like most of us on this site) are going to defend the movie to their last breath just because its Star Wars.  I recall someone once saying that Hasbro could release a Poop-on-a-stick carded figure and it would still sell...I think there's some of that going on here as well, where people are willing to overlook or ignore the flaws of the movie because they just want to like it.  I really want to like it, but I'm not there yet.
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Offline Darby

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #287 on: December 19, 2017, 07:58 PM »
Quote
This kind of upsets all the normal pre-existing Star Wars space battle logic.  A single ship shouldn't be able to hyperspace through another ship and destroy it.  If this were the case then they should do this all the time with kamikazes or remote controls. 

This is a good point that illuminates one of the logic gaps with TFA. If the Falcon could get through the shields of SKB at light speed, then the Resistance should have loaded every freighter and transport with all the fuel could and bombarded that thing until they turned it to ash.

Quote
Yoda was a nice surprise, but so poorly executed.  He looked wrong, sounded wrong (did he even use his backwards talk), and he can cause lightning storms?

He did speak as he traditionally speaks. I don't have an issue with a character who exists beyond death and can appear on any planet anywhere summoning lightning. 'If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.'

My current ranking of the films:

#1 - ESB
#2 - ANH
#3 - TLJ
#4 - ROTJ
#5 - TFA
#6 - ROTS
#7 - RO
#8 - TPM
#9 - AOTC
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 10:54 PM by Darby »

Offline EdSolo

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #288 on: December 20, 2017, 07:07 AM »
Perfect movie? Not close. Terrible garbage? Calm down

I don't know if I would call the movie garbage.  It's certainly not the worst of the 9 made thus far, but Rotten Tomatoes has an audience score of 55%.  In contrast, TFA holds a score of 88%.  That's a big difference.  There were some cool scenes and I even like a lot of the concepts they were going after, but the final product itself is something of a hot mess in my opinion.  Here's how I'd rank the 9:

#1 - Empire Strikes Back
#2 - New Hope
#3 - Rogue One
#4 - Force Awakens
#5 - Return of the Jedi
#6 - Revenge of the Sith
#7 - Last Jedi
#8 - Attack of the Clones
#9 - Phantom Menace

Maybe my expectations are too high for a SW film, and maybe I'll like it more in a second viewing, but slotting it behind ROTS should give you some indication of what I thought of it as a whole.  I think its fair to also call out that a lot of big SW fans (like most of us on this site) are going to defend the movie to their last breath just because its Star Wars.  I recall someone once saying that Hasbro could release a Poop-on-a-stick carded figure and it would still sell...I think there's some of that going on here as well, where people are willing to overlook or ignore the flaws of the movie because they just want to like it.  I really want to like it, but I'm not there yet.

The rotten tomatoes score has been shown to be largely due to bots spamming the site with negative reviews.

Offline JediJman

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #289 on: December 20, 2017, 07:26 AM »
The rotten tomatoes score has been shown to be largely due to bots spamming the site with negative reviews.

Ugh, so tired of people downplaying news/sources when the story doesn't fit their opinion.  This hasn't been "shown" at all.  It's been suspected, likely because of the vast difference between the critics score and the audience score and the fact that the score is obnoxiously low. And the potential source of the bots from what I read is anti Disney, yet we haven't seen low scores for Last Jedi, Rogue One, Thor, etc. 

Outside of hard core SW fans, most of the people I know who have seen it were less impressed than the previous two releases, which correlates to what we see with the RT scoring.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 08:17 AM by JediJman »
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Offline Qui-Gon Jim

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #290 on: December 20, 2017, 07:53 AM »
Perfect movie? Not close. Terrible garbage? Calm down

I don't know if I would call the movie garbage.  It's certainly not the worst of the 9 made thus far, but Rotten Tomatoes has an audience score of 55%.  In contrast, TFA holds a score of 88%.  That's a big difference.  There were some cool scenes and I even like a lot of the concepts they were going after, but the final product itself is something of a hot mess in my opinion.  Here's how I'd rank the 9:

#1 - Empire Strikes Back
#2 - New Hope
#3 - Rogue One
#4 - Force Awakens
#5 - Return of the Jedi
#6 - Revenge of the Sith
#7 - Last Jedi
#8 - Attack of the Clones
#9 - Phantom Menace

Maybe my expectations are too high for a SW film, and maybe I'll like it more in a second viewing, but slotting it behind ROTS should give you some indication of what I thought of it as a whole.  I think its fair to also call out that a lot of big SW fans (like most of us on this site) are going to defend the movie to their last breath just because its Star Wars.  I recall someone once saying that Hasbro could release a Poop-on-a-stick carded figure and it would still sell...I think there's some of that going on here as well, where people are willing to overlook or ignore the flaws of the movie because they just want to like it.  I really want to like it, but I'm not there yet.

The rotten tomatoes score has been shown to be largely due to bots spamming the site with negative reviews.

Was about to post the same.   

Offline Matt_Fury

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #291 on: December 20, 2017, 11:13 AM »
I think everyone needs to calm down...the is Star Wars, not Citizen Kane.  Frankly, given the choice, I'd rather watch The Last Jedi than Citizen Kane any day!
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Offline Dave

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #292 on: December 20, 2017, 01:02 PM »
Outside of hard core SW fans, most of the people I know who have seen it were less impressed than the previous two releases, which correlates to what we see with the RT scoring.

I don't know anything about Disney hating bots, but most non-hardcore people I've talked to genuinely like the movie.  I know I've criticized parts, and on a second viewing have come to terms with it, but I think I would probably rank the movies similar to Jman, although I don't see a huge difference in ranking between ROTJ, ROTS, and TLJ.  Its not in the top group for me, but its also not as bad as the bottom group (TPM and AOTC) either.

Online Jeff

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #293 on: December 20, 2017, 01:16 PM »
Outside of hard core SW fans, most of the people I know who have seen it were less impressed than the previous two releases, which correlates to what we see with the RT scoring.

most non-hardcore people I've talked to genuinely like the movie

In places where anyone can register and vote/score the movie (as many times as they want), the scores aren't great.  RT has a score in the fifties, metacritic is about 50%. 

But in all the movie industry polls that actually poll people coming out of theaters, like Cinema Score (A rating) and comscore (5/5 stars), the movie is doing very well with audiences.  That's a big disconnect.

Birth.Death.Movies has a nice breakdown of the disconnect by looking at the review data.  Curious that 60-70% of the bad TLJ reviews are coming from newly registered users.  And then like a third of those new users deleted their account after posting the TLJ bad reviews.

I am not trying to invalidate anyone's opinion of TLJ or say you're bad/dumb/whatever if you didn't like it.  I am sure that there is a population of folks who either didn't like the movie or were disappointed with what they got/saw, but it does seem like it's possible a small minority of those who didn't like it are causing problems on some of the internet review sites. 

I'm not trying to say that it's all fake and everyone loves the movie, but it wouldn't surprise me if the truth was somewhere in the middle.
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Offline Nicklab

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #294 on: December 20, 2017, 11:31 PM »
This was definitely the most challenging Star Wars film to date, especially for an audience who has aged with the franchise since it's beginning.  And I think everyone needs to take in the film as they've perceived it.  For me it resonated.  I don't expect that everyone would share my reaction to the film.  Let's see how people talk about TLJ in a year, 5 years, or 10 years on.  But I think one thing from a business standpoint was very telling:  before the film was even released, Rian Johnson was signed on to write and produce his own trilogy of films.  Disney and Lucasfilm have confidence in Johnson.  And he has made a franchise that was dare I say predictable a bit more compelling and surprising from a story standpoint.

I think that this newest film is coming from a place that is cognizant of where we've been through the franchise. I am part of a generation that saw the OT as a little kid.  And Rian Johnson is of that generation, too. I was barely 5 years old when I saw ANH in the theater during its theatrical run. And I saw TESB and ROTJ when they were released, too. And I have always gotten the sense that my generation, those that saw the OT as kids, have elevated those films to lofty territory because they were such high points in our childhood experiences.

George Lucas has offered time and again that the films were intended to be for kids. He may well have been right. And he kept repeating that mantra when he released the PT between 1999 and 2005: these are kids movies. Did he not get a real sense of how the audience had clung to the original movies and continued to be fans from the 70's through the new millennium? I'm not George Lucas, so I will never know. But I did get the feeling that because my generation held the OT in such esteem from their own childhoods, that it might prove difficult for Lucas to top his previous work because of unrealistic expectations on the part of the audience.

Now that we're in the post Lucas era? I think we're in even more complicated territory. JJ Abrams was trying to pave the way for a new generation with THE FORCE AWAKENS. I suspect that he was trying to take the Joseph Campbell route of the Hero with a thousand faces as an echo to the OT, but with new characters. "Real fans" accused him of telling ANH over again, and that it wasn't original. Then we got ROGUE ONE which expanded on part of a story that we knew. Some of it did seem like it was paying service to fans, but it also did something daring:  UNAPOLOGETICALLY KILLING OFF THE HEROES.  And the sacrifice of those heroes actually wound up resonating with fans as a daring choice that worked.  And now with THE LAST JEDI we got a movie that challenged us even more as an audience. Notably, with the failures of characters that we have loved for some 40 years. Personally, I appreciated that. Did everyone else? That's something everyone has to answer for themselves.

A lot of our preconceived notions about characters as well as The Force have been challenged.  And the days of playing it safe have certainly gone out the window.  I think there's a lot of disappointment from a good number of fans about how things panned out with Luke.  But then that was in a lot of the messaging going into this, wasn't it?  Your heroes may not be the people you think they are. 

Luke was made out to be a hero and tried to rebuild the Jedi Order.  And what he didn't learn was that the Order, prior to its fall, was  itself very flawed.  Yoda recognized that.  But it's something that Luke could never have known.  Yet he set down on a path towards failure, when he probably should have focused on teaching a single student.

I think the greatest tragedy of the film was the realization of how Luke recognized the growing darkness in Ben Solo.  He recognized his own failings as a master.  And when he foresaw what Ben might become, he set himself on a path to do the unthinkable:  to kill his own nephew.  Rian Johnson's use of the Kurosawa/Rashomon technique of showing that same scene from multiple perspectives was incredibly compelling. 

People think of Luke as perfect.  But was he really?  His attempt to stop Ben Solo before he could turn into a monster wasn't the first time that Luke had turned to the dark side.  He tapped into it during the events of RETURN OF THE JEDI.  He used a dark side power to Force choke the guards at Jabba's palace.  And he used the dark side when he fought Vader on the second Death Star after Vader goaded him.  And much like Obi-Wan had failed Anakin, Luke failed Ben as a Jedi Master and an uncle.  He failed to stop Ben from turning to the dark side himself.  And he failed to keep Ben from destroying the Jedi training temple.  If all of that isn't reason enough for Luke to walk away, I don't know what is. 

At the center of Ben Solo's story I think you need to take a look at his family.  I've rewatched TFA recently.  And when the topic of Ben comes up there's genuine hope and love from Leia, who feels desperate to have her son back.  And with Han?  I truly got a sense of his love for his son, and him being prepared to do whatever it takes to get him back.  But also a sense of heartbreak, because he recognized his failures as a father.

On the matter of Ben's turn?  There have been some rumblings to the effect that some of Ben's fellow students became the Knights of Ren.  I'm intrigued to learn a little more about that in Episode IX.
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Offline Qui-Gon Jim

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #295 on: December 21, 2017, 07:54 AM »
Outside of hard core SW fans, most of the people I know who have seen it were less impressed than the previous two releases, which correlates to what we see with the RT scoring.

most non-hardcore people I've talked to genuinely like the movie

In places where anyone can register and vote/score the movie (as many times as they want), the scores aren't great.  RT has a score in the fifties, metacritic is about 50%. 

But in all the movie industry polls that actually poll people coming out of theaters, like Cinema Score (A rating) and comscore (5/5 stars), the movie is doing very well with audiences.  That's a big disconnect.

Birth.Death.Movies has a nice breakdown of the disconnect by looking at the review data.  Curious that 60-70% of the bad TLJ reviews are coming from newly registered users.  And then like a third of those new users deleted their account after posting the TLJ bad reviews.

I am not trying to invalidate anyone's opinion of TLJ or say you're bad/dumb/whatever if you didn't like it.  I am sure that there is a population of folks who either didn't like the movie or were disappointed with what they got/saw, but it does seem like it's possible a small minority of those who didn't like it are causing problems on some of the internet review sites. 

I'm not trying to say that it's all fake and everyone loves the movie, but it wouldn't surprise me if the truth was somewhere in the middle.

I read that an ALT-RIGHT group has claimed responsibility for these bots.  They cite issues with Disney, Kennedy and Hidalgo pushing a feminist agenda and some other random homophobia.  They also reference reviews that their bots posted to other films (Weight of Water) instead of TLJ by accident.

Now, this could be some idiot claiming credit for something that happens as normal, but... I definitely don't take RT at their word saying "we weren't hacked" since all they really have is their reputation. 

Offline Rob

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #296 on: December 21, 2017, 12:52 PM »

Offline Dave

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #297 on: December 21, 2017, 02:44 PM »
Anybody know Mark Hamill's interest in continuing as Luke in the ST?  I know Harrison Ford wasn't really interested and more or less asked to get killed off.  Just curious if Hamill felt the same way or if that was just the way the story went.

Offline Darby

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #298 on: December 21, 2017, 03:13 PM »
Just saw an interview where he said he had lobbied Rian Johnson to keep Luke around for IX. I assume he wants to come back, and will as a Force ghost.

BTW, LOL on Rob's post. People forget now, but ESB was actually panned a little bit during its theatrical run, for many of the reasons that TLJ is suffering for now (too dark, not enough like SW, etc...)
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 03:14 PM by Darby »

Offline JediJman

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #299 on: December 21, 2017, 03:31 PM »
Anybody know Mark Hamill's interest in continuing as Luke in the ST?  I know Harrison Ford wasn't really interested and more or less asked to get killed off.  Just curious if Hamill felt the same way or if that was just the way the story went.

I read somewhere that he was really moved when he boarded the Falcon set for the first time.  Apparently the emotion was strong enough that he asked to spend some time in the cockpit without his family or anyone else.  He definitely cares a lot about the franchise and his character - much more so than Harrison by the sound of it.  I fully expect to see him back in #9 as a Force Ghost.
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