Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)

[Dave]

Good points Darby.

I've always thought of the prophecy of "bringing balance to the force" as a Sith vs Jedi (evil vs. good) kind of thing.  Maybe to your point the "balance" is that individuals like Ahsoka, Rey, and maybe Luke are more about a personal balance where the dogmatic ends of the spectrum get harmonized.

[Darby]

Absolutely. To the extent that the balance of the force is still a concern in the ST (I think it is, Lor San Tekka speaks to it) then it's not simply destroying the Sith / restarting the Jedi Order. Balance is between something and that's where Ahsoka is, where Luke was right at the end of ROTJ and where he may be at the beginning of TLJ.

[JediJman]

In fact, he effectively alters the path of the Jedi at the end of ROTJ when he throws away his lightsaber. His mission is kill your Dad, become a Jedi. Luke chooses love over hate, peace over war and destroys both the Jedi and Sith in one moment.

When is Luke told that he needs to kill Vader?!  Yoda says he must confront Vader.  "A Jedi uses is powers for knowledge and defense - never for attack."  Luke casting away his lightsaber instead of killing Vader is how he becomes a true Jedi.  IF he had killed a defenseless Vader, that would have taken him down the path of the Sith.  Yoda also tells Luke before he dies, "pass on what you have learned."  Unless Luke has had some added insight about how to use the force, I'm not clear on why he would be teaching Rey a different path. 

I think Luke is really old and exhausted, and probably dies in this film, leaving Rey as "The Last Jedi."  Maybe there will be more to it, but sometimes it's just that simple.  "The Force Awakens" didn't have some deep, mysterious meaning and I don't think this one does either.

[Darby]

The implication is clear, in regards to what Luke has to do with Vader. Luke says to Obi-Wan after Yoda dies - 'I can't kill my own father.' Obi-Wan responds with manifest disappointment - 'Then the Emperor has already won.'

I don't disagree Luke becomes a Jedi at the end of the duel with Vader, but he also achieves something greater in my opinion. In many ways, Luke is never offered a choice in the OT. 'You must learn the ways of the Force if you are to become a Jedi.' 'You must confront Vader.' 'If you will not turn to the Dark Side, then perhaps she will.' Circumstances force his hand in a lot of areas: the deaths of Owen and Beru, the vision of Cloud City. But he's constantly being shaped and guided by outside forces until the final moment where he rejects both his stated mission, and the Emperor's goading him into killing Vader, which happen to be the exact same thing. Luke recognizes this. Luke won't play the game. I think this is an enlightenment the Jedi in the PT at least (of which Yoda and Obi-Wan are remnants) simply did not have.

This could all go a lot of ways and this is just speculation on my part given the pretty significant groundwork being laid in cannon right now non-Jedi force users being not only prevalent but maybe preferable.

[Darby]

Going to throw out some WILD speculation because apparently not going to get any work done today.

This is super unlikely but just following some of these threads to their ends: IF Luke is the last Jedi, and establishes a new order outside of it, one question would be what to call it. Rather than get all creative, the solution would be fairly simple: the Skywalker Order. I think this also speaks to the 'Skywalker Saga' conversation that for the moment seems to be operating without a new one. My two cents: I believed from the start that Rey was a Solo. Now that Jyn Erso is, um, disqualified, I'm sticking to that. I don't believe Rey is a Skywalker in name but will become one in title. She inherits the Jedi and Skywalker legacies Kylo desires but feels were denied hm, but - BUT - may yet also receive should he redeem himself and somehow survive to join this new order.

Anyways, back to work.

[Jesse James]

I'd had the same thought that Darby did, regarding Luke/Vader...

Kenobi, Yoda, etc., didn't see Vader as a redeemable person, and so they looked at him as someone that had to go, to get things back to normal.  Luke even made the impassioned plea that his father had good and he felt it, and Kenobi denied this and said he's more machine than man, twisted and evil, yada yada yada.

I felt, like Darby said, that the redemption of Vader was more of a bonus than anything, for Luke.

At the same time, I think Luke's take on the force is going to be wildly different than what the original Order has...  I think there were already Jedi heading in that direction (QGJ for instance) but that with them all wiped out and Luke starting from scratch, he kind of would take his own experiences into account in recreating the order.  I cannot imagine he'd shun family/love like the old older did, when it was family and love of family that ultimately won the day at Endor.  It's possibly even familial connection that he and Leia have that saved his own life at Bespin even.

[Nicklab]

This title definitely evokes a whole range of questions.  And I think if Luke IS the last Jedi, then what might Rey become?

One thing that came to mind is how both CLONE WARS as well as ROGUE ONE introduced the Whills into the Star Wars canon.  Are the Whills and their connection to The Force going to get explored?  Is this perhaps part of what Luke went off to discover when he went in search of the first Jedi Temple?

[McMetal]

Kanan is way more of a legit Jedi then Luke IMO. He went the full on traditional route, growing up as a padawan learner, mastering the various lightsaber forms, studying at the Temple, etc. Luke's training seems pretty sloppy and half assed by comparison.

Thinking they are going to have to write him out somehow by the end of Rebels. Probably Ezra too. Just doesn't seem to fit logically in that later timeline. I mean, people at the rebellion know those guys. Word gets around. Oh you have a lightsaber too? Yeah we have two other guys that throw down with them here. You dudes should hook up!

Or something.

[Phrubruh]

Don't forget that Sabine has a dark saber now.

[Nicklab]

I've been thinking more and more about this title and how it might fit in with some previous lore, and it brings me back to the prophecy of the One who would bring balance to The Force.

In the prequels Yoda and Mace Windu spoke of the prophecy of the Chosen One who would bring balance to The Force. Having seen the complete story of Anakin Skywalker, I think that it's likely that he may not have been the Chosen One. He was a Jedi who turned to the Sith, but eventually turned on the Sith, destroying them. In the process he was killed, leaving Luke as the last Jedi. So was the prophecy achieved? It doesn't seem that way since Luke remained as a light side Force user.

I'm wondering if it's possible that Rey is actually the Chosen One. If Luke is truly the last of the Jedi as Yoda said, will Rey become something else?  It's very clear that The Force is with her.  She took on Kylo Ren, who had both Jedi training and was strong with the Dark Side, and Rey had ZERO Jedi training.  It seems that in light of how the Jedi failed in the prequels and Luke's new generation of Jedi fell, maybe Rey is destined to be something other than a Jedi, perhaps something greater?  Is it possible that Rey is destined to become a new type of Force user who can harness both the dark and the light, truly bringing balance?

[EdSolo]

I've been thinking more and more about this title and how it might fit in with some previous lore, and it brings me back to the prophecy of the One who would bring balance to The Force.

In the prequels Yoda and Mace Windu spoke of the prophecy of the Chosen One who would bring balance to The Force. Having seen the complete story of Anakin Skywalker, I think that it's likely that he may not have been the Chosen One. He was a Jedi who turned to the Sith, but eventually turned on the Sith, destroying them. In the process he was killed, leaving Luke as the last Jedi. So was the prophecy achieved? It doesn't seem that way since Luke remained as a light side Force user.

I'm wondering if it's possible that Rey is actually the Chosen One. If Luke is truly the last of the Jedi as Yoda said, will Rey become something else?  It's very clear that The Force is with her.  She took on Kylo Ren, who had both Jedi training and was strong with the Dark Side, and Rey had ZERO Jedi training.  It seems that in light of how the Jedi failed in the prequels and Luke's new generation of Jedi fell, maybe Rey is destined to be something other than a Jedi, perhaps something greater?  Is it possible that Rey is destined to become a new type of Force user who can harness both the dark and the light, truly bringing balance?

The prophecy depends on which Lucas you believe.  At one point, Lucas maintained that the dark side is what brought the Force out of balance and that Vader/Anakin killing Palpatine and then dying brought the Force back into balance.  To me, it looks more like coming full circle in the respect that Anakin starts as a Jedi, turns to the dark side, and then is redeemed and brought back to the light.

Flash forward to the Mortis trilogy in the Clone Wars cartoon.  That was more of a literal balance with the Father, Son and Daughter.  From that aspect, there are two Sith and many Jedi.  Anakin becomes Vader and hunts down the Jedi (or so we have thought) and by the time of ANH (if we ignore Rebels for the time being) we have Yoda and Kenobi versus Sidious and Vader, thus creating a "balance".

This is all out the window under Disney since we have Snoke and Kylo Ren.  Ren is some sort of dark side Force user, but we have yet to see what Snoke is.

[Darby]

I think Nicklab might be on to something. As far as Lucas' own perspective, I always thought his view on the idea of balance, as has been stated at least, within the force was incomplete. As we've talked about a little in this thread, balance is between things. There's an equilibrium. Erasing one side or the other out of existence does not bring balance. When he said Anakin brought balance by destroying the Emperor and redeeming himself - how? The Sith are destroyed. Dark side clearly isn't. Luke embodies both at the very end of ROTJ. He has used the dark side, but will not be used by it. So in that way he is bringing a balance but Lucas doesn't see it that way, apparently, and now with the sequels Lor San Tekka alludes to the fact that 'without the Jedi there cannot be balance in the force' though Luke represents the Jedi exactly as he did at the end of Jedi in his own person. If fear of the dark side made the Jedi susceptible to it, then Luke or Ahsoka or their heirs walking a middle path would make sense, but we have Kylo, whose family history was apparently hid from him out of fear of something happening along the lines of what ultimately did.

In other words, I dunno.

[EdSolo]

Lucas' initial stance was that the dark side itself brought the Force out of balance.  I believe this was a stance between the OT and before PT, or at least before the PT was finished.  By taking out Palpatine, Lucas stated that Vader/Anakin brought balance because, at the time, he did essentially erase the dark side since there were no more dark side users in canon.

Once the Mortis episodes came out, Lucas had seemed to shift to a more literal balance.  It made the PT an even deeper trilogy because it would seem the Jedi misinterpreted the prophecy and that by turning to the dark side, Anakin literally balanced the Force by exterminating the Jedi (if in fact Vader is one hunting down Jedi during the Purge).  By ANH you have two Jedi and two Sith or a balance between dark and light.

Disney seems to be taking a separate stance, which they have to do to continue the story.  The ST wouldn't be the Skywalker story if the Force was removed.  We need a light side user in Luke and/or Rey and a dark side user in Ren and/or Snoke.  I think you a right that we may end up with something like the grey Jedi of the old EU...someone who uses both aspects of the Force.

[JediJman]

I don't think the "balance" being referred to is a set number of people on each side, like Yoda/Kenobi vs. Vader/Palpatine.  I think it means that the force/nature seeks out a balance of good and evil.  That they must coexist with some level of near equality.  Even when there were thousands of Jedi roaming around, the general message was that there still weren't enough of them based on all the disputes and corruption throughout the galaxy. 

For me, the shift out of balance was when the Jedi were mostly exterminated and the Sith came into power.  That would generate far more dark "acts" measured as a whole, with greater loss of life, freedoms, persecution, etc.  and no rebounding protective force for good.  The force self-corrects by creating a number of circumstances that allow Luke to ascend in power and ultimately overthrow the Emperor.  If you buy into this theory, then categorizations of Jedi or Sith don't really matter.  You can maintain a balance of good and evil influences without either of those designations.

I still think people are reading a lot into the name.  Luke was the last Jedi in the ROTJ era - that doesn't mean he is the last Jedi forever.  If I have a bag of m&m's and eat all but one, I'm down to the last m&m...until I buy a new bag of m&m's.  I think Luke trains Rey, then passes on, making her the last Jedi (for now).  IIRC, a lot of Trekkies thought The Final Frontier was going to be the final Star Trek film ever made, when in fact it didn't mean anything of the sort.

[Jeff]

Totally forgot until someone pointed it out today that the E7 opening crawl said:

"Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed."

Like Justin just said, just because Luke starts the movie as "The Last Jedi" doesn't mean he finishes the movie that way.  Maybe Rey takes up the path of the Jedi (or re-joins the path, if you're one of the folks who think she's actually a survivor of Luke's first Jedi Academy attempt). Will be interesting to see how it plays out.