Author Topic: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)  (Read 163880 times)

Offline Darby

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #270 on: December 17, 2017, 04:05 PM »
I can see people wanting something more subtle from the Leia moment, to each their own, but I loved it. I actually thought of Glinda from Wizard of Oz; it's an amazing, wonderful moment that's made even more so considering the circumstances.

Online Rob

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #271 on: December 17, 2017, 06:08 PM »
Almost a day later... I did enjoy the movie.  I hesitate to judge it too harshly until we see how it fits, or doesn't, with Episode 9, but I do think it had some pretty serious flaws.   I probably won't see it again for another week, but I think this review sums up what I've been thinking today...

'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' Delights And Disappoints

« Last Edit: December 17, 2017, 06:09 PM by Rob »

Offline I Am Sith

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #272 on: December 17, 2017, 09:56 PM »
I've seen it twice now and I did like it.  There are the serious plot holes and WTF parts of the movie, but overall I was more engaged in this movie than any of the prequels.  In the second viewing several things are more clear.  I'm sure there will be even more enlightening moments the more I see it.

Couple things I caught the second time through I hadn't seen mentioned previously:

The kid on Canto Blight at the end with the broom, his shadow makes it look like he's holding a lightsaber.  Thought that was a nice addition to his use of the force to grab the broom.

Yoda's statement about there being nothing in the tree that Rey doesn't already possess was lost on me in the first viewing but made perfect sense the second time through.

Really looking forward to IX now and hoping that 'Solo' isn't a big let-down between now and then.

George Lucas would have never put out SFX that looked that shoddy.
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Offline Dave

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #273 on: December 18, 2017, 09:41 AM »
I too watched it for a second time this weekend.  My first viewing left me disappointed, but I enjoyed the second viewing much, much more.  I don't know if I went in the second time with re-calibrated expectations or was just in a better mood.

As I said, I enjoyed it a lot more the second time around, but am still bugged by the Canto Bight / DJ / Finn/Rose side adventure, as well as the slow-mo space chase.  I can live with the slo-mo space chase as a really weak plot device, but the whole Canto Bight stuff was completely unnecessary.  That part should have been edited out and more time should have been spent elsewhere - Rey/Luke interaction, or Rey/Kylo interaction, or maybe even just a shorter movie. 

I didn't catch a whole lot more the second time around, other than looking for the Jedi texts on the Falcon and paying closer attention to the Yoda/Luke dialog.

Offline Brian

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #274 on: December 18, 2017, 01:52 PM »
Saw it twice this weekend, and loved it. As some others have said, I liked it even more the second time. I think maybe because there was just so much to take in. So glad I avoided spoilers, the payoff was much better I think. It just seemed so different than the other Star Wars movies, but not in a bad way. I can see the point about Canto Bight basically being pointless, but I also didn't mind it (and I want toys of the falthier beast). I thought Mark Hamill was amazing in this movie. Bummed to see Luke "become one with the force", but thought it was done very well. I was sort of hoping to see him leave the island (for real), and get in on the action, but this was very cool as well. I can see why reaction is a little mixed on the Leia "force fly" moment, but it worked for me, and seeing my daughters reaction to it makes it even better. Really interested to see where they go in 9 now. Also, lots more action figures I hope we get.

Offline Phrubruh

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #275 on: December 18, 2017, 02:47 PM »
The second viewing is usually better once you see the more clever details. I still don't like the kids with the over exaggerated expressions and broom kid. That felt like pandering to the kids in the audience. Otherwise I really liked it.
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Offline Chris M

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #276 on: December 18, 2017, 06:37 PM »
I got in to the 8Am showing this morning.  I really liked the movie and despite some of the complaints I've read, and even agree with, I rank it behind on ESB and very slightly ahead of R1 in terms of how much I enjoyed it. 

I hated seeing Luke go, but loved the way they did it. I really wanted to see more from him.  It sucks that we won't get a good Leia send off.

I wish the Rey/Luke aspect would have been explored a bit more in place of some of the goofy humor.  I thought the Finn/Rose side mission was kind of dumb, but can get past it. 

I'm not sure why Phasma was even a character in either movie?  It was a wasted character who didn't prove to be any sort of ruthless badass or anything at all. 

I was underwhelmed by Snoke.  Yep, definite bad guy, definitely was under played.  I did think it was cool that Kylo knocked him off, but thought it was kind of cheap the way it was done.  Of course, it was a needed plot device in order to push Kylo onward.

Anyway, I thought the overall story was fantastic.  I like that the actors in these movies have much, much better chemistry than anything we saw in the PT.

That's just some of my thoughts for the moment.  Maybe I'll come back and add more if I get a chance to see it again soon.
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Offline Jesse James

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #277 on: December 18, 2017, 06:47 PM »
I wasn't able to catch it till Saturday with some old school buddies and that was kind of nice in a way, not forcing myself out in the middle of the week to see a premiere...  at the same time I didn't want to get spoiled on social media so that was something of a dangerous adventure.   :-\

I tried to read through everyone's thoughts and things...

Me, I loved it.  I thought it was fantastic.  I'd not been as attached to the ST as I was the PT and even more so, the OT.  This film was able to take the ST above the PT for me in overall hierarchy, and that was what I was hoping for kind of.  I don't hate the PT but it's not held up as well for me and I'm ok not watching it when it's on TV.  I'm not compelled to flick it on for some reason.  I felt TLJ improved on TFA, and made it a better film with more depth.  I felt that wait paid off.

That said, some sort of separated thoughts...

-The Battles...  Crait, Space, etc.  I loved them all.  The Ski Speeders as a holdover to the OT and even the PT era was great.  Poe putting his foot through the floor of his?  c'mon!  That was funny.  Maybe you have to work on rusted out POS cars semi-frequently to enjoy that?  I dunno, but I've literally had that happen in a vehicle, and so I actually lol'd at that moment.  It was funny to me.  Plus it made me appreciate Hasbro's work on that ship more too.  That thing's pretty damn nice as Hasbro vehicle toys go, especially these days.  Glad I got that while it was super cheap on Amazon.

-Kylo/Rey Force dynamic...  I loved every scene they were sharing across the galaxy with one another.  It took Leia/Luke's or Vader/Luke's connection a step further within the force.  I loved it, and Driver is the (no pun) driving force of acting in this series I feel.  He's their Ford.  He plays Kylo Ren perfectly, every scene.

-Subtleties...  Hux trying to draw his blaster, the FO ship commanders, the crewmen dialogue with Kylo...  Even the humor, which I'm seeing a lot of complaining about.  It's a more modern take on humor I think, trying to move this series out of the Lucas era.  I think it makes sense when you're making a new movie for a new audience in a way.  Some of it can feel meh, and I remember the same basic sentiments during Poe's "who talks first?" lines with Kylo Ren in TFA, but to me even if it's not something that resonates with me as much as maybe the kids or younger audience, it's better than Jar Jar stepping in ****, or forced rehashed lines from the OT so you remember it's Star Wars and everyone says the same joke over and over.

-Porgs...  I loved 'em.  From Chewie's first interaction with them, sadly, all the way to his adoption of a ton of them.  I was more than happy.  I was happy to see them establishing an eco system in general for Ach To...  It was pretty cool how they did it.

-The Force Weirdness...  I loved everything from Kylo/Rey talking, to Rey's journey, to Luke's change in demeanor from ROTJ, to Yoda's appearance, to Leia having some ability (finally) beyond talking telepathically, etc.  I though the Force was taken from the Lucas PT-era science class back to its roots as a mystical energy.  I liked that they went to old words from Yoda/Luke to get that aspect of Star Wars back on track and off midichlorian counts.  I felt this was a much more "spiritual" film that way, like how ESB felt for many younger viewers when it was out.  That's just me maybe, I don't know, but I really enjoyed that it felt like The Force was back to how I grew up with it, and not how the PT kind of took it.  Lucas was going to this mystical area sort of with The Clone Wars, and then after the buyout I think they expanded on it further, but this film did a better job of resetting it than I think anyone could've hoped for that missed that aspect of it after the PT.

-Snoke...  I thought it was edgy to do what they did.  I hope there's answers as to who/what he is/was. 

-Praetorian Battle...  Fantastic.  Best saber work in any film IMHO, and was an epic scene.  I feel like it was one of the more iconic scenes in the saga, at this point.

-Luke/Kylo Fight...  Again, same as above, I felt it was an iconic moment.  Luke's death was as perfect as they could've made it too, I think, and I do hope we have him back...  some more Yoda would be nice too.  Hell, a lil Kenobi sprinkled in, I'd appreciate as well.

-Rey's parentage...  I'm with others who don't quite believe Kylo on that.  Plus apparently Snoke was manipulating the whole sequence too.  I can take her parents being nobodies, her being born of the force, whatever.  I feel like this isn't a closed storyline just yet though.

-Poe's dynamic with BB8.  Like a boy and his dog, I appreciate it even though it's a seemingly minor/side argument.

-Chewie/Rey showing up and lighting up TIE Fighters.  I loved that whole sequence, and Kylo's reaction was fantastic.  Just as his assault on Luke from the walkers was great too.  But the Falcon showing up in the nick of time is what the Falcon does, no matter who is flying it.  And again, I loved the Porgs.  They're not the most elaborate or complex humor but I thought they were funny.

Not a ton I didn't like, and nothing that I really hated or loathed...  I will say, Canto Bight was fairly pointless.  I mean I can see the end result, the kid with the broom, the way wealth is built from war and oppression of the weak...  And there are similar stories throughout the entire saga.  Jyn's past, Luke's past, Anakin's past, Han's past, slavery, Ewoks, The Old Republic politics, and so on...  You can find these things blatantly, subtly, and in between throughout.

But Canto Bight was long, forced into an already long film (152 minutes I think?), and not really a necessity to get the same point across.  They could've used established characters and not needed "DJ" to get the same effect really.  And saved money on Benecio Del Torro's contract.  Which he felt like a huge waste but it was interesting that he was just a dude and got his money and left.  That was interesting and I'd kind of like to hear what their intent was with his character overall.  Whatever though.

Phasma is the Boba Fett of this series and that's kinda lame?  I guess as lame as Boba is anyway.  Which to a lot of people is not at all, but yeah, just lame use of her.  The fight with Finn was cool, but it was still brief.

I've heard a lot of complaints about the "slow speed chase", but for me that's just naval warfare in Star Wars (and really it worked similarly on Earth)...  Lando tells Ackbar to engage destroyers at point blank range, Ackbar acknowledges they won't last long, so there's some establishment that distance matters.  Likewise other things have sort of established the same can be said of fighters being father out from heavy guns and closer to them they're more effective and less prone to getting hit by them...  So the notion of the slow speed chase (we'll abandon for Crait, hold out for help, etc. since hypering out is pointless) made sense to me...  The hypering into a ship creates havoc seems kind of difficult thing to reconcile with past battles and issues though.

The opening battle with the bombers, I see people complaining about the physics and science and such, and I'd agree if they hadn't already established TIE Bombers dropping bombs on asteroids in ESB.  "Bombing" is still a thing in space...  I hear one of the companion books to the film explains how the Resistance Bomber fleet works, but they're clearly not a "fighter" and much more of a large ship, not maneuverable, and devastating if they get to a target and knock it out.  Hell all they need to do is drop stuff with a shove out into space and it should just get to its target on inertia.  The complaints there to me are unfounded.  I can buy it. 

Poe feels like his character has no real direction...  except maybe a leadership role without Leia and now the Vice Admiral?  I don't know.  They're down to like 8 people left in the resistance though, so maybe he's just there by default now, but yeah I feel like his character is not driven by much of a point right now except some comic relief and the Han dashing/daring/super pilot fun thing.

Lacking more 3PO and R2 sucks...  I'd like to see them be more included in the new trilogy.  If anyone/anything should be more heavily used that are a carryover from the OT, it's these two.  It feels like they're really just there in scenes to remind you they're still alive.

That's about all I can think of...  It was a lot to take in, digest, think about, and remember so I'm sure I'm not remembering a lot of stuff...  I'm going to see it a 2nd time on Saturday with the kids and my gf. 

I loved it though.  I really had a great time seeing it.  Hell my only really angry outcome was that the figures are meh.  I want better toys for this trilogy now.
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Offline JediJman

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #278 on: December 19, 2017, 10:56 AM »
This is a bad movie.  I'm a little surprised at the glowing reviews from everyone here.  I love Star Wars and I really WANT to like this movie as much as everyone else, but it's just wrong in so many ways.

#1 - The Plot is terrible.  One bomber and one capital ship can pretty much wipe out the entire FO fleet.  Why wouldn't the Rebels do this all the time to even the odds?  In ANH the Tantiv IV can't outrun a Star Destroyer, but in this one the Imperials can't muster the thrust to catch a single ship?  Or send a swarm of ties after it?  One of the support ships can't jump ahead and cut it off?  And there's enough time for Finn and Rose to get to some other planet and back while the chase scene is happening?  Rey goes down into the dark side pit to find...nothing?  Canto is a total waste.  Finn & Rose accomplished nothing, Leia's almost death was ridiculous, and OTC characters like Chewie, R2, Threepio were ornamental at best. 

#2 - Characters are forced in for marketing purposes, nothing else.  BB8 holding off a platoon of troopers is just dumb.  Clonetroopers were brought in because droids were ineffective, but the Rebels could seemingly retake the galaxy with a few well placed astromechs.  Yoda was a nice surprise, but so poorly executed.  He looked wrong, sounded wrong (did he even use his backwards talk), and he can cause lightning storms?  Why not sneak up behind Snoke and lightning fry him?  Phasma was wasted yet again.  Lets get Maz in there for a ridiculous scene as well.

#3 - The editing/small plot decisions are like death by a thousand shards.  Rose and Finn find the right slicer, then get hauled off as a woman next to the slicer looks on in interest...only to never be seen again.  DJ helps them get to the lead ship (not Finn, an ex stromtrooper?), only to quickly betray them and get a pallet of loot that was waiting around for him.  The imperials have hyperspace tracking now...because its convenient!  A line of dialogue could have easily fixed this, or they could have had a spy in the rebellion allowing them to track movements which would have made a lot more sense.  Luke agrees to give Rey THREE lessons.  We see one and then...?  What were the three suppose to be?  Hundreds of troops on hand to watch Rose and Finn be executed, then the ship gets hit and there's like a dozen troops. Luke passes out from force projecting himself, then wakes up, seems okay, sits on the rock...and dies.  WTH.  Luke is closed off from the force, then what?  Even the music score was a missed opportunity throughout.  There should have been something more dramatic when Luke showed up at the Rebel base or is looking at the twin suns.

#4 - Too many forced plot twists.  The bomber pilot is dead, wait she is alive, but can't reach the trigger.  She kicked a ladder to get the trigger, but it fell past her, but no it didn't and wham, she takes out a massive destroyer.  You know, with gravity bombs in space.  Leia is dead!  Wait, she can breathe and fly through space, then get through hatch doors without an airlock or magnetic sheild.  Rose and Finn are captured, but they find a slicer anyway, but he can't get in without Rose's necklace, so he gets it, but then he gives it back because he's a nice guy, who just sold them out for a reward.  Poe rebels against the rebels because they can't take the time to explain their plan.  The rebels are trapped with no way out...other than side doors apparently to get all the ships out and troops into trenches.  Oh and there's no way out, but there is a back door no one's ever heard of. There are several comments about the Rebels calling for their allies, only to have no one show up?  Kylo is a misunderstood bad guy who is willing to save Rey and kill his master, only to try to kill Rey? The only good one was Luke being a force projection, and they overdid that with the dissolving dice trick.

#5 Way too much heavy handed messaging. It doesn't matter who your parents are, you can be anything if you put your mind to it.  We win by saving those we love, not destroying those we hate.  All rich people are evil war profiteers.  There's no killing off the rebellion because it lives on in the hearts of our children.  The rebellion is down to a handful of people with no weapons, but we have everything we need to win!

I liked certain scenes and concepts.  New rebel ships and imperial vehicles, Rey in training, The fight scene with Snoke, Luke's force projection...but a jumble of cool scenes is not enough to overcome the flaws in this movie.  I like they they wanted to stretch the SW universe, but it was all too much and too poorly done.  This one has a lot more in common with the prequels in my opinion and it ranks right down with them as well.  It could have been so much more.  I give it a C- at best. 
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Online Rob

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #279 on: December 19, 2017, 11:26 AM »
The imperials have hyperspace tracking now...because its convenient!  A line of dialogue could have easily fixed this, or they could have had a spy in the rebellion allowing them to track movements which would have made a lot more sense.

While I do agree with you that this movie had real problems... I like that it attempted to flip a lot of things on their heads, and I don't expect them to do whatever I wanted them to do... basically, I think it was good, just not as good as it needed to be to satisfy people.  TLJ people loved, but the criticism was that it was basically ANH reborn... and maybe that's why it was successful.  I didn't want this movie to just be ESB again, and it definitely wasn't.  Which I think was a plus...

That aside, there is one thing they set up that is super subtle to get the hyperspace tracking in there...

« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 11:29 AM by Rob »

Offline Dave

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #280 on: December 19, 2017, 11:41 AM »
#1 - One bomber and one capital ship can pretty much wipe out the entire FO fleet.  Why wouldn't the Rebels do this all the time to even the odds?  In ANH the Tantiv IV can't outrun a Star Destroyer, but in this one the Imperials can't muster the thrust to catch a single ship?  Or send a swarm of ties after it?  One of the support ships can't jump ahead and cut it off? 

#3 -  The imperials have hyperspace tracking now...because its convenient!  A line of dialogue could have easily fixed this, or they could have had a spy in the rebellion allowing them to track movements which would have made a lot more sense. 

Even though I've come to terms with my initial frustration with the movie, these are the two parts that still bug me the most.

This kind of upsets all the normal pre-existing Star Wars space battle logic.  A single ship shouldn't be able to hyperspace through another ship and destroy it.  If this were the case then they should do this all the time with kamikazes or remote controls.  Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, and dumb.

Hyperspace escapes have also been a standard plot device that now seems to be gone, and to Justin's point, for no good reason.  All they needed was a tracking device implanted (as done in the Falcon on a couple different occasions) or a spy, or maybe even use an existing theme where there is a gravity well projector on a capital ship that pulls them out of hyperspace.

And I completely agree.  Why couldn't the FO star destroyers hyperspace all around the rebel fleet and cut them off even if their standard thrusters aren't as fast.

It seems these are all goofy plot devices that could have been thought through a bit better.

Offline JediJman

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #281 on: December 19, 2017, 11:54 AM »
This really frustrates me the more I think about it.  They could track the ship with a spy, which is an obvious choice given how many attempted plot twists and surprises they threw into this.  I thought for sure that the new rebel leader was some kind of spy.  Anyway, we see ships come out of hyperspace on a dime.  It makes no sense for them to just slowly chase the ship until its out of gas.  I can't believe someone didn't red flag that as a concept flaw right away as it's the primary plot point of the film.  They could have made the same movie and just had Kylo say, " I want the rebel leaders captured alive and publicly executed to demonstrate what happens when you go against the First Order."  Hence, chase scene waiting for the fuel to run out, and it's another way to stall the death of his mom. 

As for Jyn seeing "Hyperspace Tracking" in the data files, that's a neat tie-in if nothing else.
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Offline Phrubruh

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #282 on: December 19, 2017, 04:45 PM »
The Death Star could have hyperspaced to be in range within the moon of Yavin instead of orbiting around it. The Empire could have landed the AT-ATs next to the shield generator and blew it up. The Emporer could have blown up the shield generator once the Death Star was active then turn on the rebel ships. The movie wouldn't have a story or be as much fun if these things happened.
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Online Rob

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #283 on: December 19, 2017, 05:00 PM »
The Death Star could have hyperspaced to be in range within the moon of Yavin instead of orbiting around it. The Empire could have landed the AT-ATs next to the shield generator and blew it up. The Emporer could have blown up the shield generator once the Death Star was active then turn on the rebel ships. The movie wouldn't have a story or be as much fun if these things happened.

I think this is the most important point in this whole conversation.  There was dumb stuff or leaps in logic in all of the movies.

A lot of the things we love, we love because of the age that we were when we saw them.  My older co-worker hates the ewoks, I love them.  I hate Jar Jar, my 14 year old nephew thinks he's great.

The OT was formative for most of us, and we're putting that on this new trilogy, we expect too much.  It's not to say we shouldn't expect good writing, but the idea that TLJ was utter, hopeless crap is too much.  Younger people seem to love it.  They're going to grow up loving it.  I'd rather watch an exciting new chapter in Star Wars even if it's not exactly how I'd have wanted it to go than to just say to hell with it and complain about everything. 

The movie wasn't perfect, but most movies, especially the 9th one in a property, aren't going to please everyone.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi (SPOILERS)
« Reply #284 on: December 19, 2017, 05:36 PM »
I'm not saying anything new here, but I'm right with the last two posts. The people who didn't enjoy the movie, that's fine.

But most of those reviews seem to be asking TLJ to live up to some rules of belief not asked of the other movies.

They have new tracking tech. You can push a bomb at something in space. We didn't know everything about the force. Etc, Etc Etc.

Perfect movie? Not close. Terrible garbage? Calm down
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 05:41 PM by GrandMoffNick »
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