Spider-Man Joins the Marvel Movie Universe

[Pete_Fett]

I guess the subject of this thread needs to change to Spider-Man Leaves the Marvel Movie Universe.

 

[Matt_Fury]

I can't even begin to describe how monumentally stupid this decision is going to be.  Sony is banking on the financial success of into the Spider-Verse (good movie) and Venom (Not a good movie).  Holland is still contractually obligated for one more Spider-Man movie and Watts is on contract to direct it.

My prediction if no new deal is struck between Disney and Sony:

- The next Tom Holland Spider-Man movie will be the last good Spider-Man movie for a while (They can't mention anything MCU in that movie...which is all the set-up they have at the end of Far From Home.)

- The Venom sequel is going to bomb at the box office.

- The Into the Spider-Verse sequel will do ok...but it will not be good enough to justify continuing.

- The MCU is going to suffer greatly with the loss of Spider-Man because he was set-up to be Tony Stark's heir in Far From Home.  With the latest plan of Woke Female Thor (That film's going to tank...Taika Waititi is already attacking fans who have legitimate complaints about a character already written out of the MCU for lack of chemistry now becoming the lead in that franchise).  Also, their other movies (with the exception of the Doctor Strange sequel and Guardians 3) don't look as good as anything pre-endgame.


I'm hoping that this news leaking is just a tactic from Sony to try and get a better deal with Disney.  If this happens Both companies are going to suffer greatly in the long run....until Sony finally gives up and Spider-Man's rights revert to Marvel/Disney and by then it will be too late to even save the MCU.

[McMetal]

Maybe with Spider Man out Disney can concentrate on getting their hooks back into the Fantastic Four. I can’t think of any comic franchise that has been more woefully underserved. 

[Nicklab]

Spider-Man - Homecoming and Spider-Man - Far From Home were HUGE money makers for Sony.  Evidently Disney/Marvel Studios took a very minimal percentage of the profits of both films, but retained the licensing and merchandising rights, so they made a lot of $$$, too.

Some historical context about where Sony was when Spider-Man - Homecoming went into production is worth discussing.  Because after the Sony hack of 2014 the studio was in a bit of trouble, including the head of the studio, Amy Pascal.  She took a beating during that scandal.  But the new Spider-Man movies really helped save the studio and her career, and I took note of her credit in "Far From Home" as a producer. 

This issue is very clearly about one thing:  MONEY.  Disney wants a greater share of the profits.  If you look at how MCU characters had been integrated into those two movies, it's pretty clear that bringing those characters into the Spider-Man films HELPED those projects.  Especially if you're looking at the box office of those two movies compared with the Andrew Garfield films.

But Sony probably thinks they're in a strong negotiating position now.  Their new Spider-Man movies have been successful at the box office.  And two of the biggest stars in the MCU films have ended their runs - Iron Man and Captain America have both been written out of the series.  Their absence makes Spider-Man far more valuable to the Marvel Cinematic Universe.  While I think a lot of people have been surprised by the way some characters within the MCU have taken root (Guardians anyone?), is Marvel Studios going to bank on something like The Eternals that much?

My take?  Sony and Marvel both need each other.  Their continued success depends on them working together.  Otherwise we're going to see history repeat itself as Sony will continue rebooting Spider-Man in order to retain the movie rights to the character.  But I have a high degree of confidence that with the X-Men and Fantastic Four now back under Marvel Studios control they are actively working on a way to integrate those characters into the MCU, and we're going to see some great things from those segments of the Marvel universe.

[Matt_Fury]

You pretty much nailed it, Nick.  The problem is that Sony thinks the Venom sequel will do well....it's going to tank compared to the first one...the Venom movie just wasn't that good.

The Into the Spider-Verse was enjoyable, but I've never been much of a Miles Morales fan.  The average movie goer is going to know Spider-Man as Peter Parker.

Disney isn't in a much better position because they've made Spider-Man the heir apparent to Iron Man.  The next phase of the MCU seems kind of lackluster imho...again, the average movie goer has seen the end to an 11 year story.  I have a feeling a lot of people might jump ship now that all the big names are gone.

[EdSolo]

The last Spiderman movie proved you don't need Tony Stark in it.  It is the highest grossing Spiderman movie to date.  Who knows what will happen if Sony goes on their own with Spiderman 3.  It didn't work too well the last time; meaning it never happened with Garfield.

As for the MCU, they are going to run the risk of things being really clunky and hamfisted.  Bringing in the Fantastic Four is one thing, you could just have an origin story that they gained their powers post snap and are younger compared to the Avengers.  Trying to explain away Mutants is going to be something else.  The MCU has done some silly stuff in the past.  I'm looking squarely at Iron Man 3.  The studio claimed they did the whole Trevor/Mandarin thing because they couldn't have a mystical super villain with magic rings; that magic didn't fit in the MCU.  Not too many years later we get Doctor Strange.  We may even be getting the real Mandarin according to current rumors.  The current work around for mutation has not worked all that well in Agents of Shield and Inhumans.  Really, I think if Disney got the complete rights back to Spiderman, we could very likely see an entire MCU reboot so they could build all the properties from the ground up.  At this point, they still have enough star power even without Iron Man and Cap to keep going, but this will all come to a head eventually.  I am pretty surprised the superhero genre has lasted this long.  DC is certainly a mess, but the MCU has been fairly consistent.

[Matt_Fury]

The last Spiderman movie proved you don't need Tony Stark in it.  It is the highest grossing Spiderman movie to date.

Really Ed?  Far From Home was completely devoid of Tony Stark?

[JediJman]

I don't agree with any of that.  The Holland Spiderman movies are blockbusters because they're part of a bigger MCU storyline.  Stark's death was a massive plot point in FFH, but even if it wasn't people were there to see the next chapter in the MCU saga - not just a standalone Spiderman movie.  I do like Holland's Spidey better than predecessors, but that's built on a character heavily involved with the Avengers.  I don't know how you do a stand alone Holland story without mentioning MCU events or characters, and rebooting the character a 4th time could be a real disaster, especially given all the Holland love out there.  I don't think there's any way Disney would reboot the MCU with 20+ hit films and a dozen movies and shows in the works.  If/when they bring FF and X-Men into the mix, I'd bet they are new/young heroes (vs. heroes in hiding) or maybe alt dimension characters.  Or maybe we'll get some backstory with the upcoming Black Widow prequel...

[Nicklab]

I have to agree about "Far From Home" and the place it occupies in the MCU.  I never even saw the two Andrew Garfield Spider-Man movies.  But because of the MCU links between the new Tom Holland movies along with appearances in Civil War, Infinity War and Endgame?  I felt much more drawn to see FFH.  Sony should certainly recognize that being part of that larger universe can likely only help their cause in terms of selling tickets.

I think at this point we have to wait and see how things are going to develop.  Both studios have more to gain together than they do separately.  For Disney having Spider-Man as part of their broader universe is a big deal.  And for Sony it's important for them to have more potential villains and related characters for Spider-Man than the Sinister 6 crowd.  One notable character that's in the Disney domain?  Kingpin!  He wound up being developed into a pretty good character in the Daredevil / Defenders segment which is totally MCU territory.  That whole New York character landscape is fertile territory for Peter Parker / Spider-Man.  But who have we gotten teased?  The Scorpion and Venom.  And all of the Stark related characters in Far From Home may now be off limits for Sony.  This public dispute is probably part of a negotiation, and Disney is trying to get a more equitable agreement that would benefit Marvel Studios.

As for the future of the MCU?  The projects that have been announced sound alright, but they need to be developed.  But what gives me confidence is that Marvel Studios have done excellent service to their source material and adapted it in a way that only enhances the legacy of these characters.  When you compare the work of Marvel Studios to that of Warner Brothers and Fox and how they handled DC characters or the FF and X-Men?  I would still take the MCU over any other studio. 

As for the established stars?  Hemsworth is still in the mix as Thor and has linked up with the GotG.  A Black Widow films is in production which explores her earlier life.  Dr. Strange and Black Panter both have significant room to grow.  And we're also expecting the Falcon & Winter Soldier and Loki TV series that are being produced for Disney+.  There's plenty of room for Marvel Studios to grow in the post Iron Man / post Cap era.

[Darby]

As others have said, this is a lot of public negotiating and Spidey's exit from the MCU may not be set in stone. I suspect they'll work it out.

The FF I suspect will be the easiest of the Fox characters to integrate. My own theory is the Quantum Realm is likely the source of their powers and we may have already seen some seeds planted for them here and there.

X-Men are a little more challenging. You have two options I think. One is the Snap becomes the genesis of their powers, with all the gamma radiation. This isn't perfect. The other is they arrive via another dimension, which is going to be a thing in this next phase or two. Not sure which I prefer. I do think much of their mythology, specifically Xavier/Magneto, is so well covered now that we're unlikely to see it again at the outset. There are plenty of periods in X-history sans both of them that could serve as models for introducing the team. See pretty much the 80s. A potential tell on this is the rumor Disney may try to excise any Fox X-era references from the New Mutants film to preserve its characters for future use in the MCU.

[EdSolo]

The last Spiderman movie proved you don't need Tony Stark in it.  It is the highest grossing Spiderman movie to date.

Really Ed?  Far From Home was completely devoid of Tony Stark?

It was devoid of Robert Downey Jr.  The plot may have revolved around Peter being the heir apparent to Tony, but we didn't even get a RDJ cameo unless you count a picture of him on the school new broadcast.  It is essentially like Luke Skywalker in TFA.  The opening crawl leads one to believe that the plot of the movie would be around finding Luke, only to find out we get a half a minute at best of him on screen.  By comparison, this movie had less actual Tony Stark in it, but did just fine.

Can the next one stand on its own?  Who knows.  Spiderman still had Happy Hogan, Nick Fury, and Maria Hill in it.  It will be pretty jarring for the next one to not have any MCU characters, especially if they can't even be mentioned.

Personally, I think the deal isn't truly dead yet.  If they put out a Venom 2 first and that isn't successful, I think things will get renegotiated.  I foresee Sony having problems with a Spiderman 3 script.  So far, they haven't recycled villains, with the exception of introducing Harry as the Green Goblin at the very end of the second Garfield movie.  Not sure who you would choose at this point if you wanted to go with an unused villain. 

[JediJman]

I love this.

[Nicklab]

That's a pretty good update.  Regarding the Netflix characters / shows?  Those shows are/were produced by Marvel Television for Netflix.

[McMetal]

They need a small circle for Legion/FX too...

[Matt_Fury]

Well I'm glad that **** storm is over....for now.