MLB 2004

[jadesfire]

Well, at least Boston doesn't have a goat jinx 

[chuckles]

I don't buy into the whole curse thing either. If that's the case, what kind of "curse" do the Texas Rangers have then? 40+ yrs in existence and they have yet to even play in a world series, let alone win one. Surely that's got to be a long enough period of time to qualify them as being cursed too, right? If not, then what's the official # of yrs to not win a WS before you're considered cursed? I'm sure Rangers fans would like to know so they can jump on the whole "our team is cursed, thats why we can't win" bandwagon.

[Holographic Elvis]

Hmm, did the Oilers win after they sold Gretzky?

Traded.  And yes, they won in 1990.  I thought you were a hockey fan??

I don't buy into the whole curse thing either. If that's the case, what kind of "curse" do the Texas Rangers have then? 40+ yrs in existence and they have yet to even play in a world series, let alone win one. Surely that's got to be a long enough period of time to qualify them as being cursed too, right? If not, then what's the official # of yrs to not win a WS before you're considered cursed? I'm sure Rangers fans would like to know so they can jump on the whole "our team is cursed, thats why we can't win" bandwagon.

You're missing the point, unless you're doing it purposely.  This has nothing to do w/ expansion franchises such as the Rangers and Astros.  This goes back to a franchise who was one of the premiere teams of it's time.  They had won a third of the first 15 World Series ever played.  But then they sold the best pitcher of his time, who would go on to be the best hitter of all-time, to the Yankees in order to fund the play "No, No Nanette."  Since that sale, the Yankees have won 26 world titles.  The Sox have won ZERO.  For anyone to compare the Red Sox to any other unfortunately franchise is just plain ignorant. 

[Jim]

Being a Boston native I will step in and defend Mikey.  Curse?  I dont think so.  , This whole losing BS is now just a mental game.  People also fail to realize that the buying power of great players does add a little extra to the the situation.  Dont ya think?  The Sox may be one of the most expensive teams in both leagues, but think of this.  The Yankees payroll is what 40, 50 million higher than the Sox.  Imagine the Sox with the ability to buy even another 30 million in pitchers this year.  Thats two All-Star Pitchers .There would of been no contest.  The Sox would of buried them.  There is that rare exception though where great young players and even combination of veterans can pull together with a great team.  How bout those Marlins from a few years back.  Payroll?  Wasnt it less than 100 million.  What about the Twins this year.  Great team, small payroll.  Bottom line is that a cap needs be instated like the NFL.  I really hope this happens in NHL this year and the owners dont cave.  Think about it.  The NFL is one of the hardest leagues to predict a teams outcome.  Baseball?  We all know basically which 5-6 teams will be there every year. Yanks, Sox, Braves, A's.  Im not taking away that the Yanks have real talent but youve had your time in the spotlight.  You guys will be back in the hunt next year with us, so there should be no concerns.  Old Georgie already has his wallet open and looking for a few big names.  Catch you Yank fans next year.   And just think how much sweeter the rivalry will be.  George was insulted and will be back for sweet revenge. 

[Holographic Elvis]

Being a Boston native I will step in and defend Mikey.  Curse?  I dont think so.  , This whole losing BS is now just a mental game.  People also fail to realize that the buying power of great players does add a little extra to the the situation.  Dont ya think?  The Sox may be one of the most expensive teams in both leagues, but think of this.  The Yankees payroll is what 40, 50 million higher than the Sox.  Imagine the Sox with the ability to buy even another 30 million in pitchers this year.  Thats two All-Star Pitchers .There would of been no contest.  The Sox would of buried them.  There is that rare exception though where great young players and even combination of veterans can pull together with a great team.  How bout those Marlins from a few years back.  Payroll?  Wasnt it less than 100 million.  What about the Twins this year.  Great team, small payroll.  Bottom line is that a cap needs be instated like the NFL.  I really hope this happens in NHL this year and the owners dont cave.  Think about it.  The NFL is one of the hardest leagues to predict a teams outcome.  Baseball?  We all know basically which 5-6 teams will be there every year. Yanks, Sox, Braves, A's.  Im not taking away that the Yanks have real talent but youve had your time in the spotlight.  You guys will be back in the hunt next year with us, so there should be no concerns.  Old Georgie already has his wallet open and looking for a few big names.  Catch you Yank fans next year.   And just think how much sweeter the rivalry will be.  George was insulted and will be back for sweet revenge. 

Umm, how exactly is that defending Mikey's point when in the span of 2 sentences you go from The Curse to The Budget?  The Marlins team from last year was just all around sound.  They had solid pitching, a good pen, great defense, power and speed.  It really didn't matter who they played.  They were the most balanced team.  This season, who was the consensus going into the postseason as the most balanced team?  The Red Sox.  Someone on ESPN made a very good point: the Red Sox win isn't all that suprising, amazing comeback yes, but not all that surprising since they were picked to win by most.  So they've lived up to their potential thus far.  How can you make a comparison between this year's Sox and their huge payroll and last year's Marlins, or any of the Twins or A's teams of the past 4 years?  There is NO need for a cap in baseball and teams that you cited (Marlins, A's, Twins, etc.) prove that.  You used the Braves as an example but guess what?  They dramatically slashed their payroll this year and were supposed to be one of the worst teams in their division.  They ended up winning it!!  Money does not buy championships.  I've always said that.  You have to go out and play and win it on the field.  People just love to bitch and cry about teams spending money.  Big damn deal.  It doesn't guarantee a thing.  God bless George Steinbrenner for spending the money he has.  Too few owners do that, John Henry included.  Had he popped down a puny $12 million more, he have had A-Rod.  But no, he and the rest of the whiny Beantowners would rather cry about it and blame the Evil Empire for their woes.  That's another element of the Curse.  The Sox fans feed into it with their whining and bitching and moaning year in and year out.  This year is was all big bad George's fault because he stole A-Rod from you guys.  News flash: Your owner handed the blueprints to George on how not to pursue the guy.  Hell, even if you guys win the World Series you'll probably still find something to complain about.   

[Jim]

Hate to tell ya, but not getting Arod was a pleasure.  Hes not worth the money the Yankees wasted.  Most fans in Boston were glad he never came to town either.  And also, regardless of what people think of the Nomar deal, it was one of the smartest and ballsiest things the Sox have done in years. Arods on field antics in the Championship summed up his whiny image IMO.  And if you read my post I did not say all teams benefit by big payrolls, mentioning the Twins and Marlins, but when was the last time a low payrolled New York team was in the playoffs?  But I will still say that unlimited spending does play a major role. As far as defending Mikey, my point was that Boston fans dont believe in the curse for the most part, and everyone else from around the Country seems to be buying into it.  The voice of many (meaning people who dont live in this state) seem to be the ones trying to explain this curse.  Get back to me when youve lived here all your life and have a better understanding of whats going on.   

[chuckles]

This has nothing to do w/ expansion franchises such as the Rangers and Astros.

True, it doesn't have anything to do with any of those particular franchises, but I'm just proving a point on how there are other teams that have gone thru decades of futility with out a so called "curse" being the reason. The Sox are not the only team to suffer thru that.

For anyone to compare the Red Sox to any other unfortunately franchise is just plain ignorant. 

OK, so is it fair to compare the Red Sox to a franchise like the Phillies, who have been in the league even longer than the Sox and have won a whole whopping 1 WS? That's about 125 yrs of baseball for that franchise and 1 world series to show for it. That means 124 yrs they have NOT won it. That sure makes the Red Sox 86 yrs of not winning one sure seem more feasable, if another team can go even longer without winning one (which by the way was 100 yrs until the Phillies got on the board).  And they don't have a curse. So why can they have 10 decades of coming up short be due to many other reasons besides some curse, but not have the same apply to the Sox? You call it a curse, I call it a coincidence that it started after selling Ruth.

But then they sold the best pitcher of his time

Babe Ruth, a better pitcher than Walter Johnson or Grover Alexander, who are also of the Babes time? I don't know about calling a pitcher who had 3, maybe 4 real good yrs as a pitcher better than 2 of the all time great pitchers in the history of the game.

[Nicklab]

Bottom line is that a cap needs be instated like the NFL.  I really hope this happens in NHL this year and the owners dont cave.  Think about it.  The NFL is one of the hardest leagues to predict a teams outcome.  Baseball?  We all know basically which 5-6 teams will be there every year. Yanks, Sox, Braves, A's. 

It's obvious that you know nothing about the economics of baseball.  Let me start with this caveat:  I am a Yankees fan for as long as I've watched baseball, and that's since the '70's.  The Yanks should've sealed the deal in Game 4 and they didn't.  HOWEVER, by the same right, I've noticed more than a fair share of obnoxious Red Sox fans rubbing things in.  Get some class people, and also realize that you haven't won the World Series yet.

As for the economics of baseball and a potential salary cap, you have no grasp of the situation.  The NFL system works because of several things:  coordinated television contracts, extensive revenue sharing, fewer games and more demand for NFL tickets compared to baseball.

The NFL has coordinated television contracts.  That means that the league as a whole has negotiated the television rights for the entire league.  They've made it so that Fox is the home of the NFC, and CBS is the home of the AFC.  Then there are the Sunday and Monday night games which belong to ESPN and ABC.  All of the money from those deals is distributed evenly among all 32 teams.  And believe me, it's a TON of money! 

The difference between this system and the way MLB television rights are handled is staggering.  Each team in the MLB negotiates their own TV deal, meaning that there are disparaties between what the Dodgers will get in Los Angeles and what the Royals will get from the Kansas City TV market.  This is just reality.  So will MLB come to it's senses and centralize this?  Probably not, because the owners won't go for it.  Especially since the owners are now following the YES/NESN business model of owning their own regional sports networks to make even more money.

This problem only gets worse because of the MLB schedule.  You've got 162 games per team in MLB as opposed to 16 per team in the NFL.  Since the supply of games is higher in MLB, it means that demand for the product (games on TV) is lower.  Have you noticed just how few games were carried on Fox over the course of the summer?  Those are only window dressing and rehearsals for the Fox TV talent to get ready for the post season.  Seriously, I don't think they even started airing baseball on Fox until June this past summer.

The same glut of games is what brings down demand for MLB tickets.  Too many games means that people will only go to games when it suits them unless the team is doing really well.  It's even happened with the Yankees.  Witness the 80's.  Yankee stadium was pretty empty many a night in the 80's when the Yanks were stinking up the Bronx.  Why?  Everyone was crosstown at Shea watching the Mets win.

Now, as for the teams you've cited, I can't believe you mentioned the A's.  The A's have one of the lowest payrolls of any team that's been competitive over the past several years.  Run the numbers and you'll see.  It's Billy Beane that has made that team the success they are on a tight budget.  The Braves have gotten kind of cheap too.  And the Twins are run by a tightwad as well.  In fact, the guy is the richest owner is baseball.

The only thing that is going to change the way Major League Baseball is run economically is what is happening in the NHL right now.  That would be devastating to baseball from a PR standpoint, but it's possibly one of the few things that would remedy the situation.

[Holographic Elvis]

Well obviously you guys can't have discussion on this because you chose to ignore the parallel between Ruth's sale to the Yanks and the Sox 86 years of futility.  Bring up whatever franchise you want and however long they've gone w/out a World Series and it doesn't even come close when you break it all down.  We were talking about The Curse, but you guys chose to steer down a different path to avoid admitting it exists. 

[chuckles]

Well obviously you guys can't have discussion on this because you chose to ignore the parallel between Ruth's sale to the Yanks and the Sox 86 years of futility.

OK, I'll give you that for the last 14-15 yrs that Ruth was in the league, it obviously had a huge impact on both teams. The Red Sox lost their star player and no longer were as competitive afterward. While the Yankees went on to win 4 WS in the Ruth era. No question that deal had major ramifications for both ball clubs, at that time. But I have no idea why anyone thinks that the sale of Ruth has anything to do with any Red Sox team in the past 70 yrs, once Ruth was retired. You're dealing with entirely different rosters, different managers, different owners, and different competition in the league, hell, even a different format in the playoffs. And those are the kinds of things that contribute to a team not winning for so long. Not a curse.

We were talking about The Curse, but you guys chose to steer down a different path to avoid admitting it exists.

I'll admit something exists when I see hard evidence that it does exists. And so far, I have not.

[Scott]

Curse or no curse its been one hell of a game tonight!!!

[Holographic Elvis]

Well obviously you guys can't have discussion on this because you chose to ignore the parallel between Ruth's sale to the Yanks and the Sox 86 years of futility.

OK, I'll give you that for the last 14-15 yrs that Ruth was in the league, it obviously had a huge impact on both teams. The Red Sox lost their star player and no longer were as competitive afterward. While the Yankees went on to win 4 WS in the Ruth era. No question that deal had major ramifications for both ball clubs, at that time. But I have no idea why anyone thinks that the sale of Ruth has anything to do with any Red Sox team in the past 70 yrs, once Ruth was retired. You're dealing with entirely different rosters, different managers, different owners, and different competition in the league, hell, even a different format in the playoffs. And those are the kinds of things that contribute to a team not winning for so long. Not a curse.

So Ruth retiring effectively ended The Curse in your opinion huh?  Funny because I still don't see a world title attached to the Red Sox for all these years since he retired.  Interesting. 

We were talking about The Curse, but you guys chose to steer down a different path to avoid admitting it exists.

I'll admit something exists when I see hard evidence that it does exists. And so far, I have not.

LOL, what more do you need??  Exhibit A: Bucky Dent.  Exhibit B: Bill Buckner.  Need I go on?

[chuckles]

LOL, what more do you need??  Exhibit A: Bucky Dent.  Exhibit B: Bill Buckner.  Need I go on?

Oh right, what was I thinking. A team giving up a homerun and an infielder letting a ball roll through his legs. Two things that never happen in a game of baseball, unless of course, a curse is involved.  I guess every team has a curse then because I've sure seen a lot of homers given up and a lot of infielders let ground balls roll right between their legs and under their gloves.

[Holographic Elvis]

LOL, what more do you need??  Exhibit A: Bucky Dent.  Exhibit B: Bill Buckner.  Need I go on?

Oh right, what was I thinking. A team giving up a homerun and an infielder letting a ball roll through his legs. Two things that never happen in a game of baseball, unless of course, a curse is involved.  I guess every team has a curse then because I've sure seen a lot of homers given up and a lot of infielders let ground balls roll right between their legs and under their gloves.

Keep denying the obvious Sox-homer.  Truth hurts don't it?

[paploo]

i'm sorry i must have missed something...i was too busy giving the yankees the Heimlich manuever

the sox are in the world series right...and the yankees are doing what now?