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Community => Watto's Junk Yard => Topic started by: jokabofe on June 25, 2004, 12:03 AM

Title: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: jokabofe on June 25, 2004, 12:03 AM
(http://media.michaelmoore.com/_media/images_la/f911-home-interim_03.jpg) (http://www.fahrenheit911.com)
[/url]

click on pic to visit the website

anybody going to see this flick this weekend? i'm a huge fan of moore's films, and i'm going to try and get out this weekend to see it. should be great.

that cover art is priceless  ;D
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Bob Crane on June 25, 2004, 12:13 AM
I would normally pass, cause I hate to spend twelve loonies on a film devoid of any spectacular sp-fx OR Will Smith, but I figure I’ll go next weekend just so I can “debate” on another forum :-X, I’d go tomorrow but funds are low and beer is mo’ important than Moore.
 Hopefully this thread doesn’t turn “weird”- everybody play nice, we all being SW fans first ‘round ‘ere!
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Morgbug on June 25, 2004, 12:40 AM
Hmm, I doubt I'll see this.  

Unlike Dave, I am not a fan of Mr. Moore.  Bowling for Columbine was interesting enough, but he's full of crap with respect to what would really happen to him if he walked into someone's house in Toronto.  I imagine to get the three or four respectable responses he got, he needed a couple of hundred takes and more than a few hasty steps.  No, there were no handguns to be seen, but he probable walked into more than one shotgun barrel or baseball bat.  Yeah, we have gun control, for the regular citizens.  But that's a whole different issue.  

Having seen the previews, there's not much to draw me in.  Yeah, I think Bush is living his own personal Vietnam out right now, but I disagree that everything bad that has happened as represented (at least in the previews) in this film could come to pass in  just 10 months.  The preceding administration must bear some of the responsibility.  

I'm also not a fan of the cut and paste type of media spin that he loves so much (as evidenced by the cover, albeit funny).  Editing can make anything look the way you want it to, which may be a horribly biased misinterpretation of reality.  

In the words of the governor of Minnesota - the media don't report the news, they make the news.  Jesse may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but truer words were never spoken.  
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Darth Kenobi on June 25, 2004, 01:04 AM


I'm definatley going to pass on seeing this movie.  I would wheather see a good ficitionalized story about killer tomatoes then this ficitionalized crap which he calls a documentry.  Anything that he says has to be taken with doubt since he was proven to have implesh stuff and edit stuff together to shape it to help his narrow view on what went on with the Cloumbine shootings, (Bank where you can get a gun that same day and C.H. NRA speech which was shown in the movie as one event but was actually two seperate speechs).  With these actions that he made for that movie I wonder what he directoral changes he made to the stuff you will see in this film.  

Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Bob Crane on June 25, 2004, 01:05 AM
Quote
he's full of crap with respect to what would really happen to him if he walked into someone's house in Toronto.


BWA HA! Yah, I’m with you on that, having lived there I would certainly not leave my door unlocked at night… then again, I was shacked up in Parkdale :o. His rose-colored perspective towards Canadian medicare is downright funny as well... however his cavalier antics are amusing and I think at the core he is trying to do the right thing, and for that I respect him.

Quote
I disagree that everything bad that has happened as represented (at least in the previews) in this film could come to pass in  just 10 months.  The preceding administration must bear some of the responsibility.  

Too true, things this complicated are seldom black or white.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: SilverZ on June 25, 2004, 02:25 AM
(http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040624/capt.la10206241851.michael_moores_critics_la102.jpg)
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: jokabofe on June 25, 2004, 08:53 AM
wow, i didn't realize so many people hated michael moore  ???
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: stormie on June 25, 2004, 10:37 AM
I'll probably see it eventually. However, I have a problem with how this movie is being portrayed as the end-all "fair and balanced" truth. It was written, produced and directed by self-admitted left-leaning persons and is totally supported (it seems) by the Democratic Party. I find it hard to believe that it's not just a little skewed to the left. Furthermore, though I am absolutely no fan of the current administration, I fear that many undecided voters will see this film, take it as the whole, absolute truth, and let that information rule their votes in the upcoming election. And that all sounds just a little "undemocratic."
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Rob on June 25, 2004, 11:52 AM
wow, i didn't realize so many people hated michael moore  ???

Without turning this thread nasty - it's gotten downright tiresome.  They can't catch him in a lie, yet they call him a liar all day long... or, even better, just resort to fat jokes.  They accuse him of creative editing like it's something new and of him making fake documentaries.  Even Moore himself (if you saw the Daily Show yesterday?) says that his movies are not unbalanced and not 'fair' - that he's got a point of view, and he is going to show it to you.  He says there is a certain portion of his film that is irrefutable fact, and a portion that is his opinion.  He's even referred to the movie as an op-ed piece.  

You don't have to agree with him, but when all you do to try to debunk his movie is to call him fat or a liar - you lessen your position considerably.  He's got an enormous ******* team to prevent errors and head-off any accusations of lying... Usually the people who don't like him, are the ones who read the Newsmax article and took them at their word - even though places like those are often the ones under attack, and thus are only fighting back.

Whatever though.  I'll (assuming I can get tickets) be seeing it tonight at 10:30.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Scott on June 25, 2004, 12:03 PM
I've seen Roger and Me a couple of times but that's about it, I really liked that one but just have never gotten around to see the rest of his stuff.  Wanted to see Columbine just haven't yet...

I'll probably check this out too sometime down the line

And thanks for keeping this discussion civil ;)
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Angry Ewok on June 25, 2004, 03:26 PM
I may see F9/11, it'll be the first Moore movie I see, if I do go.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: SilverZ on June 25, 2004, 03:39 PM
It looks like my picture may have been taken as a cheap jab at Moore. The picture is the cover of a book that parodies Moore’s book title “Stupid White Men” and counters the presentation of several Moore documentaries, starting with “Roger and Me”.

My issue with Moore is in his presentation. There is a difference between presenting truths and manipulating truths to create the perception of a story to support your views.

I could easily craft a movie about how the United States manipulated metal industries into creating an economic crunch upon Japan and brought them into making a desperate preemptive strike to defend their economic health by hitting Pearl Harbor. That would be using a minor side-event to offer a completely contrary perspective on world events, without ever telling a single lie.

While I think he’s a master at doing what he does, I don’t, personally, find his attempts ethically prudent nor do I need a sledgehammer upside-the-head delivery of a counter-perspective to make me look at all facts on a topic.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Force Guy on June 25, 2004, 04:07 PM


I'm definatley going to pass on seeing this movie.  I would wheather see a good ficitionalized story about killer tomatoes then this ficitionalized crap which he calls a documentry.  

What parts of Fahrenheit 9/11 are 'fictionalized'?  I mean, you haven't even seen the movie & you are already calling it bogus.  Without cutting & pasting info from another website, please feel free to point out the lies in Moore's latest film.  

At any rate, I'm excited about seeing the movie this weekend.  Before 9/11, terrorism was a mere afterthought to Bush.  Oh well, I'm sure most people would rather listen to Dubya speak for two hours instead of seeing this film since he's proven himself to be a real honest & trustworthy guy.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Famine on June 25, 2004, 06:22 PM
I may see F9/11, it'll be the first Moore movie I see, if I do go.

Rent Bowling for Columbine first.


Its the ONLY thing produced by Moore I care to see.

Although my two democratic family members are trying to drag me to see it Tuesday.

Kevin
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Vator on June 25, 2004, 06:52 PM
This movie is bunk to some extent, it's a propaganda film. I'm encouraging no one to go see it.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Nicklab on June 25, 2004, 07:52 PM
If it's such bunk, then produce some evidence as to why you think it's not accurate.  Christopher Hitchins wrote a good article on it, and it's probably one of the better assessments of the movie.  He's a credible journalist.  Are you?  Or is it bunk because someone told you so?

Is some of what's in the movie true?  Damn straight.  Is some of it stilted to support Moore's viewpoint?  It's likely.

I think everyone should see this movie just to see what this war is really like.  It gets cleaned up a lot in network news editing before you see it on your tv at home.  It's time for the American public to get a little reality and see how distasteful the truth is.

The real question everyone should be asking is why are all these people trying to slander Michael Moore?  Some of it is to spin things to their way of thinking.  The rest of it is that the "establishment" is afraid of him.  They want to keep him on the fringe in an effort to keep him from showing the American public how much they're getting screwed over.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Rob on June 25, 2004, 07:54 PM
It's a point of view film.  From day one Moore has called it an op/ed piece.  It's part irrefutable fact, part one man's opinion.  What's bunk about that?  
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Vator on June 25, 2004, 08:10 PM
I said it was to some extent. Jesus, calm down guys.

Anything that is op/ed is bunk to some extent because opinions may skew the facts.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Matt on June 25, 2004, 10:25 PM
I said it was to some extent. Jesus, calm down guys.

Anything that is op/ed is bunk to some extent because opinions may skew the facts.

Well, I think you're bunk.

How do you like them apples?
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Vator on June 25, 2004, 10:28 PM
Oh yeah! Well you're gunk! Ohhhhhhhh who's face now? Huh? HUH!
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Muftak on June 25, 2004, 10:46 PM
I saw F9/11 today. I don't come from a Republcan background, but I wouldn't say I'm Democrat either (definitely liberal-leaning, though.) That said, he made some very good points that, had they been brought to light back in '00, might've made the GOP reconsider W as their candidate.

MM's very dry wit is in tact. It was a good film, it certainly stirred some things in my heart.

If you don't want to hear his opinion (and you know already what it is anyway), I'd suggest not going. If you have an open mind, this is a top-rate documentary.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Jesse James on June 26, 2004, 12:18 AM
Remember our policy guys.

Vator doesn't believe it, he doesn't support it...  Leave it at that, but I would rather not see this get any worse than it has (though I see it is "escalating" already).

Just remember that you don't have to agree on this, but it's not something we're wanting to turn into another political debate with points and counterpoints that aren't doing anything but pissing both sides off.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Rob on June 26, 2004, 02:49 AM
Just got back. Fantastic. Pretty much what I expected. Not too much new info for me in there, but for someone who doesn't pay attention to the news, and the news that isn't BIG news, there's lots of new things to learn about George Bush, his ties to the Saudis, and his ties to a lot of other disturbing things...

Moore's editing, as we all know by now, is horribly precise and creative to create a feel. But not condusive to lies or lying. He's got irrefutable point after irrefutable point.

Everyone should see it at least once, at very least it will stir discussion and hopefully rile people up enough to drive down to the local YMCA for 3 minutes in November to cast a little ballot.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Dressel Rebel on June 26, 2004, 05:21 PM
The rest of it is that the "establishment" is afraid of him.  They want to keep him on the fringe in an effort to keep him from showing the American public how much they're getting screwed over.

Michael Moore does a good enough job keeping himself on the fringe.

I wouldn't pay to see this movie, but I'll watch it for free, like I did with Bowling for Columbine.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Matt on June 26, 2004, 07:06 PM
Well, I went and saw Saved!, but was incredibly excited to see a huge line for F 9/11 after my movie let out.

Got my tickets for tomorrow's 1:30 show.

I find all of the Moore-bashing a bit silly, myopic, and misguided.  

There's nothing wrong with presenting a dissenting opinion, and there's especially nothing wrong with questioning authority.

Hopefully this movie'll wake some folks up.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Vator on June 27, 2004, 01:24 AM
I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I just said that it seems
very propagandaish being that an election is so close and that Micheal Moore is pretty much in the democratic camp. Nothing wrong with that, I just think that maybe the facts could be skewed and probably are.

Some of the points that are brought up in the movie are true, I'll admitt, Bush isn't that great. However, the film shows him in a much darker shade. And not only Bush, but he's the main selling point of this movie, isn't he?

If you want my opinion, here it is, I don't care for this movie being that it could influence the election. I don't want Kerry to win, because if he does I feel that the path that we're currently going down (And it is a pretty bad one) will only get worse.  Nothing wrong with opinion, you're not going to change mine, and I'm not going to change yours.

Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Ben on June 27, 2004, 05:11 PM
Damn, I wish I could see this flick. It's the  #1 flick this weekend, and it's not playing here.

Jesus, I hate CEC Theatres.
I think I'm going to send them an e-mail. A really nasty worded e-mail. They didn't play Bowling For Columbine either, so I think they have something against Moore or his viewpoint.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Matt on June 27, 2004, 06:13 PM
I didn't say there was anything wrong with it. I just said that it seems
very propagandaish being that an election is so close and that Micheal Moore is pretty much in the democratic camp. Nothing wrong with that, I just think that maybe the facts could be skewed and probably are.

Some of the points that are brought up in the movie are true, I'll admitt, Bush isn't that great. However, the film shows him in a much darker shade. And not only Bush, but he's the main selling point of this movie, isn't he?

If you want my opinion, here it is, I don't care for this movie being that it could influence the election. I don't want Kerry to win, because if he does I feel that the path that we're currently going down (And it is a pretty bad one) will only get worse.  Nothing wrong with opinion, you're not going to change mine, and I'm not going to change yours.



Vator, I wasn't talking to you or about you[/i].

Personally, I couldn't give a sh!t what some 14 year old kid from South Carolina thinks.  No offense--I just don't.

Just got back from the flick, and it was pretty much exactly what I thought it would be.  First movie I've been in since--believe it or not--Clones where the audience clapped.  Several times.

It almost makes me want to vote for Kerry this November, although I realize that here in Joke-lahoma, that would be a wasted vote, anyway.

Maybe instead, I'll donate some money to Kerry's campaign or something, if I wasn't such a cheap bastard.  That would help more than my vote would.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Vator on June 27, 2004, 06:22 PM
And I wasn't talking about or to you either, just a generalized response is all. Sorry I can get a tad defensive sometimes, since I was largely the only response in the thread against the movie. Just the way I saw it.

C'mon Virex, no need to be rude.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Matt on June 27, 2004, 06:26 PM
C'mon Virex, no need to be rude.

You'll know when I'm being rude.  Just ask Durge.

I mean, I like ya and all, but on stuff like this, your opinion is of no consequence to me.

Not trying to be rude--that's just the way it is.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Vator on June 27, 2004, 06:31 PM
That's cool. I know you when your doing a Virex Classic, and that really wasn't it. Peace (even though there really wasn't anything to begin with...)
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Nicklab on June 27, 2004, 07:25 PM
The rest of it is that the "establishment" is afraid of him.  They want to keep him on the fringe in an effort to keep him from showing the American public how much they're getting screwed over.

Michael Moore does a good enough job keeping himself on the fringe.

I wouldn't pay to see this movie, but I'll watch it for free, like I did with Bowling for Columbine.

Did I ask for your opinion stalker boy?
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Dressel Rebel on June 27, 2004, 10:10 PM
The rest of it is that the "establishment" is afraid of him.  They want to keep him on the fringe in an effort to keep him from showing the American public how much they're getting screwed over.

Michael Moore does a good enough job keeping himself on the fringe.

I wouldn't pay to see this movie, but I'll watch it for free, like I did with Bowling for Columbine.

Did I ask for your opinion stalker boy?

You got it anyway, no charge.  Cuz this is a message board, and if you don't like me responding about what a fringe-liberal Michael Moore is, don't read it.  I don't care whether you like it or not.

And about this stalker accusation, the only time I ever asked where you worked was when you said you worked for a news outlet in the W+P debate at RS, and I inquired as to which one you worked for since you were coming across with a liberal bias.  You volunteered that you worked for a news organization, I didn't ask. I guessed you worked for CNN or MSNBC, and I betcha I'm right.  If I'm wrong set the record straight.  Because you know you lost that debate, and I'm right that you work for a left-leaning organization.  That's the only part of "where you work" that I care about - whether it was left leaning or right leaning, and not a stitch of information beyond that.  I couldn't give a flying crap about anything else about you.

Sorry everyone else, I just had to clear that up.

Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Force Guy on June 27, 2004, 10:53 PM
My wife & I watched it last night.  What a great film.  I'm glad that a real American like Michael Moore cared enough to make this film in order to expose Bush for what he really is.  Finally, people everywhere can see for themselves what Bush & his cronies are all about.  
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Chris on June 27, 2004, 11:34 PM
Let's not go where this is headed.

If it happens, it's locked and I very well may suspend.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Morgbug on June 28, 2004, 01:20 AM
Interesting.  My post here was my last post before heading off on vacation.  Coming back in at this point is enlightening.  People's political biases are readily apparent, I can say that much.  

All manner of straw man argument is being fired up, to say the least.  Not a surprise, but not something that would win points in a formal debate.  

I expect my bias is present and accounted for as well, though I would like to point out that I would only have voted for Bush given the other choice was the guy that claimed to invent the internet ::) amongst other misguided and blatant lies.  

That said, I have little faith in the media, regardless of whether it is Moore, CNN or your local station.  Why?  Because they, regardless of who they are, will spin it to suit the editorial tastes (read political biases) of whomever is in charge.  Moore is honest, I'll give him points for that, but please, don't suggest that he's making good points?   What he may well be making are valid points, but are ya really certain there's no grease under Kerry's wheels either?  Clinton was squeaky clean?  Nuh, don't think so bub.  Politics has, IMO, very, very little to do with what the electorate wants.  It has everything to do with favors, cronyism and buttering your own bread.  Regardless of the side.  

Everything is spun, regardless of the side it is coming from.  You can be damn sure that the Bush spin machine is on a roll and you know maybe 20% of what is going on.  That is precisely no different from what happened during the Clinton administration nor will it be any different from the next administration, regardless of what political stripe they are wearing.  

If the movie serves to open your eyes or remove some naivete, then it has served a good purpose.  Just don't believe that selective editing necessarily tells you the whole truth.  Again, I haven't seen the movie yet, so I cannot say what is good or bad about it, I just found the preview laughable when it's presented, as a shock, that congress does not read every word in a bill before voting.  Really, and this only happens now that Bush and the Reps are in control?  Please, someone have the balls to say they believe this to be true?  Didn't think anyone was that naive.  

Enjoy the movie for what it is.  But remember, there are some pretty damn good selective editors here too, but it's all done in fun.  You can C&P anyone's post to make it say what you like.

I work for a government agency.  I've seen my own writing come out enhanced, twisted and turned into an out and out lie.  The government's spin doctors did that and I have exactly zero power to say so.  I've been interviewed by print reporters as well as radio and television reporters.  I've had to phone offices asking them to print/air retractions because of where they cut and edited to make a particular slant on what I said, removing all context and any qualifications because it makes it more entertaining, exciting, eye/ear catching.  Anyone can be made a fool of.  None of what was done by the media was a lie, they just simply removed the context, thereby preventing any litigible action.  Ergo, it's not a lie, really. :-\
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Morgbug on June 28, 2004, 01:38 AM
His rose-colored perspective towards Canadian medicare is downright funny as well... however his cavalier antics are amusing and I think at the core he is trying to do the right thing, and for that I respect him.

thanks Bob for reminding me.  While I may be appearing (may?) to be rather anti-Moore, I'm simply trying to present examples of why perhaps his movies should be taken with a grain of salt.  That rose-coloured perspective on Canadian healthcare (a view shared by Hillary???) is another perfect example.  

I steadfastly blame the Canadian health care system for the death of my mother and my mother in law, simply because they were not afforded the best care and all the options that should have been available to them.  My mother in law passed away due to infections picked up in the hospital, almost certainly passed along by either a nurse or doctor that didn't have/take the time to properly wash their hands.  That lack of time was simply due to underfunding resulting in a lack of staff.  Hell, we have people sleeping in beds in emergency room hallways for days thanks to shortages.  
Contrast that to my mother who passed away from cancer and was not given the drug that she believed was the key to curing her first bout with cancer.  For all intents and purposes she was not afforded the opportunity to have that drug, because she was deemed too old (66) and unlikely to survive regardless, based on statistics.  Had we had some form of user pay system as opposed to a wonderful, universal ::) >:( health care system, you better f___ing believe we would have paid for that drug for my mother.  But we were not allowed the option.  
This is not to suggest that the US health care system is better, I do not believe it to be, unless you happen to be able to afford it, as the upper middle class can.  At least that's my perception, though it may well be as flawed as Moore's views on Canadian health care.  

Regardless, the point is nothing more than don't believe everything you see, regardless of whether it suits your political biases or not.

[/rant] :-[ :-\ :'(
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Force Guy on June 28, 2004, 02:53 PM
The results are in!   ;D

Despite the fact that Fahrenheit 9/11 was only projected onto screens in 868 theaters across the country — almost three times less than the other nine films in the box-office top ten — Fahrenheit 9/11 easily took the #1 spot in its opening week.  Fahrenheit 9/11 also became the first documentary ever to debut at #1.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Force Guy on June 28, 2004, 02:59 PM
Oh yeah, in terms of numbers, Fahrenheit 9/11 made an estimated $21.8 million in ticket sales this weekend.  Not bad.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Bob Crane on June 28, 2004, 03:02 PM
The results are in!   ;D

Despite the fact that Fahrenheit 9/11 was only projected onto screens in 868 theaters across the country — almost three times less than the other nine films in the box-office top ten — Fahrenheit 9/11 easily took the #1 spot in its opening week.  Fahrenheit 9/11 also became the first documentary ever to debut at #1.

Thereby proving that Moore is definitely not “fringe” as some would like to believe… well, he is at least more popular than the Wayans brothers.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Rob on June 28, 2004, 09:56 PM

Thereby proving that Moore is definitely not “fringe” as some would like to believe… well, he is at least more popular than the Wayans brothers.

Well he was fringe once upon a time...Bowling for Columbine was the beginning of the end of that though - and with this one he just blew up as far as notoriety.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Scott on June 28, 2004, 11:22 PM
Roger and Me was pretty big though too, it was big enough to be out on video and for me to watch it in highschool
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Matt on June 30, 2004, 10:58 AM
Roger and Me was pretty big though too, it was big enough to be out on video and for me to watch it in highschool

Pets?  Or meat?

(http://www.javajane.co.uk/animal/farm/_bunny_rabbit.jpg)
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Scott on June 30, 2004, 11:11 AM
I still remember that scene and a girl sitting next to me running out of the class room crying.  There was a big hubbub for like 3 days that our teacher should have told us what was coming
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: DSJ™ on June 30, 2004, 11:17 AM
Pets?  Or meat?

(http://www.javajane.co.uk/animal/farm/_bunny_rabbit.jpg)


That is not an ordinary rabbit ...  (http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Sounds/HolyGrail.wav/rodent.wav)

I warned you! But did you listen to me? (http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/python/Sounds/HolyGrail.wav/warned1.wav)
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Morgbug on June 30, 2004, 11:23 AM
I've not seen this movie, please don't tell me that Moore also supports PETA ::)
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Scott on June 30, 2004, 11:32 AM
No...Roger and Me was made in the 80's chronicling the shut down of a GM Plant in Flint, Michigan.  One of the scenes is him going to talk to a lady who has rabbits she raises for food and money.

She's shown playing with this cute little bunny and then all of the sudden kills and guts the thing in front of the camera.

I don't think he was showing anything pro-animal rights just how bad it was in Flint
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Morgbug on June 30, 2004, 11:40 AM
Ok, thank you for the explanation.  

As may be obvious, I am not a fan of PETA. While I don't habitually beat my pet (no, not that pet), I do rather strongly believe in using animals in research.  And while certain stores may lay claim to 'no animal testing' that's only because they actually do not do any testing any way, they use generics that have already been through the testing.  Essentially they profit without the guilt or paying the price.  Cosmetics aside, there is a reason that pharmaceuticals are tested on animals first.  

But I digress, rather far off topic.  Pardon me.  
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Morgbug on July 5, 2004, 04:29 PM
More distortions from Michael Moore (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5335853/site.newsweek).

Hey, not my title, it's the title of the linked Newsweek article.  As with all things, a grain of salt is necessary, but perhaps raises a question or two.  
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Dressel Rebel on July 5, 2004, 10:36 PM
Just to make sure everyone knows what a one-sided fraud this movie is, here's 56 lies and distortions that Michael Moore perpetrates in his "movie". (http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm)

Whoops.  59 deceits and lies.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Morgbug on July 6, 2004, 11:02 AM
Wow, now HERE'S a theory (http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=51667).  

Hey, I just find them, I'm not saying they are right, but boy, you sure get every angle covered. :o
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Scott on July 7, 2004, 10:41 AM
Saw it last night...

Have some mixed feelings.  I think some of the points he makes are pretty salient, especially the Bush Admin's shift of focus from Al Qaeda the Taliban and Afghanistan to Saddam and Iraq just because is one of my biggest beefs with the current Administration.  And the fact that most of America thinks there are ties between the two makes me sort of ill.

The part about poor kids and kids in general fighting in Iraq when they don't need to be there, and the recruiting practices of the Armed Services.  I don't have a beef with that.  Its a volunteer Army, you don't have to be there and if you're naive enough to join up then its your own damn fault you're over there.  I have a buddy from high school that's been there for almost 18 months.  I think of him every day and hope he comes home soon, but I also think about how he was so gung ho to go into the Army and wanted to serve our country for so long.  Sure you may not like the reason why you're there but you can't really do anything about it since you chose to sign up for that risk.  Lots of kids I knew in school did it for college money.  Is that a good trade off?  I would guess most people would say no.

That being said, the reasons we are there seem to be more and more because Bush and Friends wanted to get Saddam out of there at all costs.  And there are people dying every day both innocent civillians, non-innocent civillians and our own Soldiers.  I hope every day we can find a way to get out of there ASAP and get our people home safe and sound.

The other good point I think Moore makes is the Bush family ties to the Saudis.  Its not just them as there are plenty of fingers on both sides of the aisle with fingers in the Saudi pot.  But with that much money floating around and that much oil at stake, its hard not to think twice about who Bush is really looking out for sometimes.  

My biggest problem with American politics since even before 2000 is that you can't seem to have a middle of the road approach to anything.  Listening to the radio the last few weeks all I have heard is people either trashing this as the biggest piece of **** since Gigli or that its the best film since Gone With The Wind.  I don't think its either, I think he has some good points but some of the stuff really doesn't bother me.  I find the radical views of both parties and their loyalist a little disheartening for the vast majority of people that fall in the middle somewhere like myself.  

One question...Has Bush's Approval ratings changed at all since the film has been released?
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Nicklab on July 7, 2004, 11:39 AM
Moore made a pretty good appearance on the Charlie Rose show last night.  I think it was the first part of a two part appearance.  I believe the other segment will air tonight.  It was a pretty good and reasonably tough interview.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Force Guy on July 7, 2004, 02:00 PM
One question...Has Bush's Approval ratings changed at all since the film has been released?


Yes, his numbers have gone down since, but there's no conclusive proof that it's due to Moore's new film.  

BTW, I'm glad you saw it.  It's a documentary that I feel every American should see.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Scott on July 7, 2004, 02:05 PM
One question...Has Bush's Approval ratings changed at all since the film has been released?


Yes, his numbers have gone down since, but there's no conclusive proof that it's due to Moore's new film.  

BTW, I'm glad you saw it.  It's a documentary that I feel every American should see.
I agree on seeing it...it makes you think for sure about what's going on in the US and world in general.  I think what Brent's been saying though that you have to look at it with the idea that Moore is out to show his story and there is certainly another side to it that isn't being told needs to be recognized.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Morgbug on July 7, 2004, 09:30 PM
That would be exactly what I'm trying to say and about all I am trying to say.  

We all have biases, political or otherwise.  If you can recognize them and question them, so much the better.  Believing something (or opposing something) just because it does (doesn't) suit your personal philosophy is just not that bright.  

Virex said questioning authority is good.  I agree, but question all of it, not just what you don't like.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Dressel Rebel on July 9, 2004, 09:21 PM
One question...Has Bush's Approval ratings changed at all since the film has been released?



BTW, I'm glad you saw it.  It's a documentary that I feel every American should see.

lol

Yes, everyone should see this objective, informative, educational tool.

 ::)
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Rob on July 10, 2004, 01:54 AM
Yes, everyone should see this objective, informative, educational tool.

Glad to see you're finally on board.  And you'll be happy to know that it's made nearly 70 million dollars in two weeks.

so somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 to 10 million people have done just that - so far.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Ben on July 10, 2004, 05:06 PM
I saw it last night.

Some dude behind me kept saying 'bulls--t' to just about everything in the flick.

Such ignorance is disheartening. :(
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Force Guy on July 10, 2004, 05:42 PM
Some dude behind me kept saying 'bulls--t' to just about everything in the flick.

Was he wearing an eye patch?   ???
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Ben on July 11, 2004, 12:30 AM
No. But if the movie was any longer, I might have given him a reason to. :-*
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Dressel Rebel on July 11, 2004, 03:00 AM


Such ignorance is disheartening. :(

I agree, it's amazing that so many people would piss away $10 on a piece of liberal propaganda.  That's 2 OTC Cloud Car Pilot figures right there.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Rob on July 11, 2004, 10:49 AM


Such ignorance is disheartening. :(

I agree, it's amazing that so many people would piss away $10 on a piece of liberal propaganda.  That's 2 OTC Cloud Car Pilot figures right there.

Hey why not, people read Ann Coulte and Sean Hannity's books after all...
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Force Guy on July 14, 2004, 07:19 PM
A recent report indicated that by the end of its third week in distribution, Fahrenheit 9/11 had grossed slightly over $80 million.  This last weekend (the weekend of July 10), Fahrenheit 9/11 was shown in more than 2,000 theaters across the country, its third screen increase in as many weeks.  Yay.

Oh, and yesterday (July 13), Reuters reported that opening day receipts for F9/11 had broken British box office records for a documentary.  Way to go, Moore.   :D
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Morgbug on July 14, 2004, 09:48 PM


Oh, and yesterday (July 13), Reuters reported that opening day receipts for F9/11 had broken British box office records for a documentary.  Way to go, Moore.   :D

Um, not quite sure a documentary is totally accurate.  That much selective editing really sort of detracts from the document portion of the word.  Bias is still bias, even if you like it.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: JoshEEE on July 14, 2004, 09:50 PM
Quote
Bias is still bias, even if you like it.

Absolutely. I didn't watch it as a history lesson, but that didn't make it any less entertaining.

It's a movie. It's entertainment. It's an op-ed piece....which means it's full of facts but yeah, they're biased.

Think of it as "The Passion of the Christ" for the exact opposite audience.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Force Guy on July 14, 2004, 11:38 PM


Oh, and yesterday (July 13), Reuters reported that opening day receipts for F9/11 had broken British box office records for a documentary.  Way to go, Moore.   :D

Um, not quite sure a documentary is totally accurate.  That much selective editing really sort of detracts from the document portion of the word.  Bias is still bias, even if you like it.

The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences defines a documentary as the following:

I. DEFINITION
1. An eligible documentary film is defined as a theatrically released non-fiction motion picture dealing creatively with cultural, artistic, historical, social, scientific, economic or other subjects. It may be photographed in actual occurrence, or may employ partial re-enactment, stock footage, stills, animation, stop-motion or other techniques, as long as the emphasis is on fact and not on fiction.

With Fahrenheit 9/11, Moore presented facts.  You can dispute whether or not he 'stretched' the truth or added significant bias in the film, but in the end, he presented facts.  Personally, I thought Moore was too gentle.  He could've presented plenty of other interesting tidbits of info about Bush (but didn't).    

Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Rob on July 15, 2004, 10:23 AM


Oh, and yesterday (July 13), Reuters reported that opening day receipts for F9/11 had broken British box office records for a documentary.  Way to go, Moore.   :D

Um, not quite sure a documentary is totally accurate.  That much selective editing really sort of detracts from the document portion of the word.  Bias is still bias, even if you like it.

Most documentaries are biased to one degree or another.  Any intro level film class that touches on documentary will teach you that.  His film falls well within the realm of documentary - whether you agree with his conclusions or not, there's no disputing that documentary applies.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: JediMAC on July 20, 2004, 05:47 PM
I'd be remiss not to point out what happened to George Lucas' ex-girlfriend when she expressed her support for this flick, and Moore.

(http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/19/ronstadt.reut/story.ronstadt.ap.jpg)

(maybe someone could paste a copy of this pic over in our "Not Hot" thread...)

Ronstadt Thrown Out of Vegas Casino (http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/19/ronstadt.reut/index.html)

 :P
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Force Guy on July 20, 2004, 06:02 PM
Fahrenheit 9/11 took in another $7.2 million this past weekend, bringing its total gross to about $94 million.  Not bad.  
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: SPIDERLEGS on July 20, 2004, 06:58 PM
(http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tmssa/2004/tmssa040624.gif)
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Rob on July 21, 2004, 12:06 AM
Fahrenheit 9/11 took in another $7.2 million this past weekend, bringing its total gross to about $94 million.  Not bad.  

Considering it's almost FIVE times the previous record gross for a documentary, I'd say so.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Paul on July 21, 2004, 10:13 PM
I mentioned this to KBZ earlier today I thought it would make for a good road trip for some of the members.


http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/columnists/bud_kennedy/9196716.htm?1c



Coming soon to a bedsheet or TV

By Bud Kennedy

Star-Telegram Staff Writer


What do the Texas cities of Alpine, Greenville, Seguin and Sherman have in common?

Wrong.

This is tough to believe, but Greenville doesn't have a Dairy Queen.

What Greenville and all those other cities do have, though, is Fahrenheit 9/11.

But not Waco.

Waco is larger. But up to now, it has been a Fahrenheit-free zone.

Filmmaker Michael Moore's political broadside against President Bush will finally open Friday in suburban Woodway, its first showing anywhere near his McLennan County ranch.

The movie will come even closer Aug. 14, when peace activists plan to show it on a bedsheet in the front yard of a house in Crawford.

Until now, the nearest Fahrenheit theater has been 40 miles away in Temple. A small movie house in a mall there has the only showings between Fort Worth and Pflugerville, north of Austin.

The idea for the Crawford show started when Waco Tribune-Herald columnist John Young wrote a tongue-in-cheek letter asking Moore to send a DVD for Fahrenheit-deprived fans to watch on a big-screen TV somewhere -- "if it's not a football weekend."

Moore offered to come to show the movie if someone would provide "the sheet and the barn."

The activists camped in Crawford took him up on the idea. They're already thinking about moving the event to the high school football stadium, which might give a whole new meaning to the term "political football."

Now, a Central Texas clash is about to unreel. All because until now no Waco theater has been showing the movie.

Love it or hate it, Fahrenheit is closing in on "blockbuster" movie earnings. It was showing on 2,004 screens nationwide last week and has brought in $93.8 million, meaning it is holding up better than Anchorman or Dodgeball.

I haven't rushed out to see it. From what I've read, Moore argues a few valid points and takes a lot of gleeful cheap shots.

But America has survived 16 years of radio hosts turning politics into showbiz. We can handle one movie.

At least one prominent Waco Democrat is uneasy about the Crawford showing.

State Rep. Jim Dunnam, leader of the Texas House Democrats who bailed for the Oklahoma border during a rumble last year in the Texas Legislature, said he thinks that Fahrenheit is "thought-provoking" and that showing it in Waco is a great idea -- but maybe not at a showboating peace event in Crawford.

"I think that'll detract from the experience for people who just want to go and watch the movie," he said by phone Monday from his law office. "Both sides will create a furor over this. It's unnecessary."

Johnny Wolf, owner of the Crawford Peace House, said Moore's crews visited there when they were scouting scenes.

The movie's message is the same as peace activists', he said.

"I understand that the Democrats have their issues," said Wolf, 49, owner of a business near Dallas that builds stage sets and props. "But if they had been doing their job against the war all along, we wouldn't have the mess we have today."

The movie is regularly selling out a 98-seat auditorium in Temple. News reports brought business from as far away as the northern suburbs of Austin, said Tony Delgado, manager of the Premiere Cinema 12.

One couple drove from Midland, apparently not knowing that Fahrenheit is now showing in Abilene, Odessa and San Angelo. Not to mention Alpine.

"People stop and thank us for running the movie," Delgado said. The sellouts don't reflect criticism of Bush, he said. "The people are smart moviegoers. They know it's just a movie."

A vice president of the Big Spring-based Premiere Cinemas said that if Moore wants to promote the movie near Bush's ranch, he should do it in Temple.

"I'm not sure what he would accomplish" in Crawford, Joel Davis said. "I would think he'd want his movie shown in a proper venue."

After Fahrenheit hit No. 1 the first week, Lions Gate and IFC Films expanded distribution into cities such as Amarillo and Wichita Falls. Outside Texas, it's showing in towns such as Ponca City, Okla.; Russellville, Ark., and Mandeville, La.

In Greenville, northeast of Dallas, theater owner Loyd Brigance said the movie isn't doing much business there.

"Ten, 12 people at a time," he said gruffly.

"Most of the folks who come are disappointed. They expected to see a movie. All this does is bash the president."

If Greenville is big enough to offer Fahrenheit as an option for moviegoers to cheer or ignore, why did it take so long to get to Waco?

Waco's a big city. It has 10 Dairy Queens.

Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: SPIDERLEGS on July 21, 2004, 10:36 PM
Quote
The movie will come even closer Aug. 14, when peace activists plan to show it on a bedsheet in the front yard of a house in Crawford.

That's at the Crawford Peace House purchased by North Texans for Peace, several friends of mine are actively involved with it including my next door neighbor. The house is on the only road you can take to Bush's ranch. The problem is, he always arrives by helicopter and never sees the protests and displays at the Crawford House. I've actually been to it. My neighbor and I went down there right after it was purchased. I will admit, I was a little uneasy with all the secret service agents driving slowly by. Of course, it was new then. Now, the secret service barely pays attention to them. Obviously, this is merely a symbolic gesture. I doubt it will accomplish anything other than "neener neener neener!" (or is it "nanny nanny boo boo"?)
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Rob on July 21, 2004, 10:43 PM
Quote
The movie will come even closer Aug. 14, when peace activists plan to show it on a bedsheet in the front yard of a house in Crawford.

That's at the Crawford Peace House purchased by North Texans for Peace, several friends of mine are actively involved with it including my next door neighbor. The house is on the only road you can take to Bush's ranch. The problem is, he always arrives by helicopter and never sees the protests and displays at the Crawford House. I've actually been to it. My neighbor and I went down there right after it was purchased. I will admit, I was a little uneasy with all the secret service agents driving slowly by. Of course, it was new then. Now, the secret service barely pays attention to them. Obviously, this is merely a symbolic gesture. I doubt it will accomplish anything other than "neener neener neener!" (or is it "nanny nanny boo boo"?)

In that case Spiderlegs, do you know any of the email addresses of those guys or if they have a website?  The article doesn't seem to mention if this is official or not and if so when it would happen.  My buddy and I are interested in possibly driving down if it's really happening.

(Oh, and everyone please feel free to call me Rob)
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: SPIDERLEGS on July 22, 2004, 09:58 PM
They have a Yahoo group that I will forward the address to you via PM. I'm about to leave the house as I read this, so I'll do it when I come back. I'll try and find out for sure if this is happening or not.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: SPIDERLEGS on July 23, 2004, 06:57 AM
Here is the specific page where they posted the plans. I guess it's sort of an itenerary/press release:

http://www.crwatch.com/crawfordaug14.html

Here is the website for North Texas for Peace and Justice:

http://www.northtexaspeace.org/

Here's another article about it you might  have read already.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=5721633
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Paul on July 23, 2004, 03:02 PM
This is not entirely movie related, but I found it interesting that the Reuters writer keyed into the fact that the movie was not showing within 30 miles of Crawford.  Crawford is as big as a postage stamp and they probably have to go all the way to Temple or Waco to get any decent groceries or to go to Wal Mart.  

I suspect the small town will be overwhelmed.  Rob, take all the food you think you will need with you.  Take a ton of OFF with DEET.  The last major stop is Waco.  In fact I think the last decent hotel is in Waco too.  I'd bet the media types are going to take all the good ones and I don't know if I would want to sleep on the ground Woodstock style out there.

Another thing I read was that the President was going to spend the time of the Democratic National Convention at Crawford, so who knows, he might accept the invite and bring a lawnchair and a cooler full of Pabst and join y'all.  Oh yeah, I think Waco's dry.  So if you want any of the good stuff, take it with you.


And politics aside, any movie theater owner who is short sighted enough not to show a "controverisal" movie or whatever their excuse is, is in my opinion crazy.  Look at what this thing has banked so far.  (And everybody knew it would whether they admit it or not)  Both sides of the political fence flock to see it, some mulitiple times.  It is a guaranteed profit center.  That being said I have to admit to having not gone to see it yet.  I was hoping Rob might video tape it for me when he goes to Crawford...
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Rob on July 23, 2004, 03:06 PM
This is not entirely movie related, but I found it interesting that the Reuters writer keyed into the fact that the movie was not showing within 30 miles of Crawford.  Crawford is as big as a postage stamp and they probably have to go all the way to Temple or Waco to get any decent groceries or to go to Wal Mart.  

I suspect the small town will be overwhelmed.  Rob, take all the food you think you will need with you.  Take a ton of OFF with DEET.  The last major stop is Waco.  In fact I think the last decent hotel is in Waco too.  I'd bet the media types are going to take all the good ones and I don't know if I would want to sleep on the ground Woodstock style out there.

Thanks for the tips.  If Moore is going to be there and if we go, we'll probably just drive home afterwards.


Another thing I read was that the President was going to spend the time of the Democratic National Convention at Crawford, so who knows, he might accept the invite and bring a lawnchair and a cooler full of Pabst and join y'all.  Oh yeah, I think Waco's dry.  So if you want any of the good stuff, take it with you.

Something's telling me he won't - unless he gets drunk enough to think it's a good idea to head on' down. :)


And politics aside, any movie theater owner who is short sighted enough not to show a "controverisal" movie or whatever their excuse is, is in my opinion crazy.  Look at what this thing has banked so far.  (And everybody knew it would whether they admit it or not)  Both sides of the political fence flock to see it, some mulitiple times.  It is a guaranteed profit center.  That being said I have to admit to having not gone to see it yet.  


I was hoping Rob might video tape it for me when he goes to Crawford...

If you still haven't seen it by the time the DVD comes out, you can always borrow my copy.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: SPIDERLEGS on July 23, 2004, 03:24 PM
Waco's not dry. Crawford might be, but Waco isn't.
Title: Re: fahrenheit 9/11
Post by: Rob on July 27, 2004, 10:41 AM
Finally got some info on this:

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/892936.html

It's happening tomorrow night 'around' 8:30 in Crawford.

I'm going to be a very last minute decision as to whether or not I can go.

Oh, and F911 passed the $100,000,000.00 for ticket sales this weekend - impressive.