JediDefender.com Forums
Collecting => Customs => Customizing Tips and Tricks => Topic started by: Joe on December 28, 2005, 11:01 AM
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I was thinking after Dean put out that amazing station amde out of wood it's inspired me to start using wood.I've also heard wood has better stabality and lasts longer.So I was wondering what do most people use to glue walls and other things on the base.
O and also it's cheap but would thins be a good jigsaw?
Black & Decker
4 Amp Variable-Speed Jigsaw Kit with Light
thanks ,
Joe
EDIT: This thread USE TO be "Is this a Good Idea"
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Hmmmm.... I'm clueless on how to help you. DeanPaul, any suggestions?
:P
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Hey guys, I don't normally read a lot of the threads in here but stumbled into this one.
It really depends a lot on what you're trying to make. Right tool for the right job is an understatement when it comes to working in this scale.
I had access to a full workshop that fabricates the custom trade show displays and environments I design. I had almost every tool I needed there. I used a large industrial table saw, band saw, joiner, planer, edge sander, air disc sander, air brad nailer, cordless drills and a jig saw. I also used hand tools like a Japanese saw and chisels.
If I were starting from scratch the jig saw would be a must. Buy a good solid one without a lot of bells and whistles (like the light). Milwaukee and Bosch (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00067J3WS/002-3818720-5511266?v=glance&n=228013) are two brands I like, and Dewalt has gotten better recently. You'll want a really fine blade to cut MDF, and one more coarse for plywood.
They have really small table saws that I've used to make bass wood models like this one:
(http://www.congruentinc.com/imagestopost/space/ohd.jpg)
I was working with smaller pieces of wood on the model above to begin with, so I didn't need to rip down a 4x8 sheet for something the size of the space station.
You could look into an inexpensive bench band saw, but you'll need to learn how to maintain it and will be limited by the width of the gate - the distance from the blade to the blade housing on the table edge.
Stay away from tools like circular saws, you won't get the precision you're looking for and will have a lot of work after the cut to get the edge looking good. Also avoid scroll saws - they're really difficult to work with in a variety of materials and the blade always seems to pop out or break.
Regarding materials, I have no idea how you all have the patience work with foam core. I've used it a lot in the past on study models for work related projects and it certainly has benefits, but also some serious deficits. It's fragile, it warps, it's not structural at scale and it can become expensive fast. Nothing I ever used it on had any shelf life at all, especially when I used hot glue to bond it together.
I chose 1/2" MDF for the station because it didn't have the layered edge that plywood would have. If I had used plywood I would have either used bondo to fill the edges or applied a vinyl tape to hide the irregular surface after painting. I did need to pre-drill to keep the material from splitting, and was careful to set in far enough from the edges when brad nailing to avoid a blow out.
The acrylic was easy to work with because I had the parts milled on a CNC machine. If I had used hand tools there would have been a ton of finish work on the edges.
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how durable is mdf and what thicknesses does it come in Dp ?
im makeing something for chewies project like mercy joe, and its ..............................um kind of a big one, ;) and i need to know if mdf is sturdy at 1/8th inch thick or 1/4 inch thick, or even if they make it in that thickness. :-\
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I'm not sure about 1/8" in MDF - it would be fairly brittle. Ren Shape (http://www.nfgsales.com/modeling.htm) is a material you might consider, depending on what you're making. It's great for reductive sculpting and carving, and is a good substitute to some plastics for thinner walk ways and platforms or walls.
MDF is stable in that it won't move a ton once sealed with a primer and paint that locks moisture out. You don't want to create a lot of unsupported spans that carry loads, or you will get some warp over time. RTA bookcases usually use particle boadr vs. mdf, but for projects like the space station 1/2" is plenty to support Hasbro vehicles like the Falcon and Shuttle.
1/4" MDF is available, the curve-top elevator supports on my project are three layers of it laminated together. That's what created the slot for the elevator sides to travel in. The 1/4" I found at Home Depot had a white laminate surface on one side, which didn't bother me. I did use a reddish glue the trade show company uses to bond it though. If you're bonding the raw surface, wood glue, gorilla glue or some epoxy glues work well. The laminate side needed the reddish apply to both sides like rubber cement stuff to bond.
Most of my project is 1/2" MDF and acrylic. The base could have been thicker, but 3/4" 3x5 would have been heavy and not all that structural. You might consider a rigid base like plywood that your other stuff attaches to - especially if you're planning on texturing the floor or applying a gloss reflective vinyl or something to it. You could seal and prime the wood grain out of the base top, but I feel you'll always see some striping in the edge unless it is covered.
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thanks for the help.about how much would the wood , jigsaw,and tablesaw run me?
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O.K. now I have one more question till' it's off the home depot tomorrow.How do yoy get walls on.Hot glue........right?
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Joe,
Cost is depending on what you can spend. The link I left above had the Bosch jig saw at less than $200. A table saw is reasonably between $200 and $400, and buy a good Freud carbide blade for better cuts. MDF, depending on thickness and where you pick it up should be between $15 and $30 for a 4x8 sheet. Home Depot and Lowes will cut it down for you on the panel saw so it will fit in your car, but don't expect a clean, 90 degree or accurate cut, just one to reduce size.
You could hot glue the walls, but I don't think it would hold well at all.
I suggest using an air nailer if one is available, or predrilling holes and using #6 wood screws. Either way, use wood glue on your joints and clamp flat surfaces for a few hours if possible. If you're using an air nailer, stay inside the edge at least 3/4" of an inch to prevent the brad from seperating the MDF. Again, screws need to be predrilled, nail/brads held in from the edge.
Good luck.
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Home Depot and Lowes will cut it down for you on the panel saw so it will fit in your car, but don't expect a clean, 90 degree or accurate cut, just one to reduce size.
I wouldn't go that far. Some of the newer types of wood their not allowed to cut in stores, depending on the local codes. My grandfather is a member of the Pro-Desk here at the local Depot, and he was just explaining this to me.
Somthing you guys should look into is using Masonite for custom playsets. It's thin, durable, and comes in smaller sheets. Home Depot carries a 2' X 4' and 4' X 8'. They will cut down the 4' X 8' to fit in your car or Minivan.
Kevin
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well now I know what to do with all that money I got for Christmas.....
Thanks guys,
Joe
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o and air nail?Is that an electric nail gun?
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o and air nail?Is that an electric nail gun?
I think he's refering to a nail gun, most likley run on a compressor, though I could be wrong.
Kevin
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thats what I thought I typed in "air nail" and a nailgun w/a builtin compressor came up.
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Cool deal.
Where are you going to buy all of this? Home Depot?
Kevin
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so how strong would wood glue be to atach teh mdf
and how much does it runn for about. i on ly got 50 bucks so just wondering if i need to save a crap loada money
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One last thing (not regarding wood or cutters) how would I make the spires on Genosis?Wood base , wire mesh for rounded edges and plastercloft but I don't think that would make the tall thin "pointy" spire effect.
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Sculpy, or try looking at some Model Railroading websites for tips. I'm sure some of the nice folks at the various sites could help you out.
Kevin
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so how strong would wood glue be to atach teh mdf
and how much does it runn for about. i on ly got 50 bucks so just wondering if i need to save a crap loada money
If you glue the material properly (clamp as well as fasten with a brad or screw) the joint will be stronger than the material itself. This is true of wood and most wood derivative products. If a panel has been glued properly it will split at a weak spot in the material vs. at the seam.
Wood glue is fairly inexpensive. Less than $10 for the bottle you'll need. A little goes a long way, and applying to both surfaces and smoothing the bead of glue with your finger or a piece of cardboard will create a better bond. 100% coverage isn't a must, but you'll get a stronger connection if you have a thin film on both surfaces. Don't put so much on that you'll get a glue line seeping out when you put it together, and keep a damp rag handy to wipe excess – a scraper (piece of metal with a burnished edge) can clean the line after the glue has dried.
Regarding the nail gun, Kevin is right. I used a compressor driven brad nailer. However, MDF is a material they will gladly cut down for you. It’s mostly the crazy treated woods that resist insects and plastics that release all kinds of badness they don’t like to cut down.
I'm not really sure how to say this without sounding like a wet blanket, so I'm just going to put it out there. Safety really needs to be considered when you're working with tools like these - especially the table saw. Smaller table saws with smaller motors aren't necessarily safer. The engine can bind more easily on material a larger saw would blow through and create a kick-back or other unfortunate reaction. The guide fence is less accurate and easy to find out of alignment, also causing the saw to bind when sheet material is forced through the machine. The miter guide that comes with most saws is unsatisfactory for consistent cross cuts. I made my own cross cut sled to fit the table saw at the shop I used so I could work more accurately, faster and safer. A really good blade like the Freud I recommended above will help with that somewhat. The high speed steel that comes with lower end saws dull quickly and that can really compromise safety. Home Depot, Lowes and some wood working stores in your area should be able to provide some training, basic safety about where to stand, how to cut and where to keep your hands to avoid loosing fingers. These machines do more damage than an exacto slip.
Here's some basic safety tips for working with table saws. (http://www.woodshopdemos.com/safe-1.htm)
...And here's the alternative. (http://www.amgron.clara.net/circularsawbenches/accidents.htm)
When I was building my project, I thought a lot about how fortunate I was to have access to the tools I did and to have experience with them. I had a grandfather that let me pound nails as a kid, a lot of theatrical set building in high school and early college, and experience working in a furniture wood shop at the Rhode Island School of Design. It's a skill I easily take for granted and don't often put to use in my job or life, so it was a fun diversion to pick it up again. Mostly, I thought about how I wanted my three children to have the knowledge to do the same someday, and how would they get there? I thought a lot about how I had come to where I was with pulling off my project.
That said, I really encourage you to jump into this. It's a different set of tools that I believe you'll have an aptitude toward if you've been working with foam core and other customizing. I believe you'll get better results in quality and longevity out of these materials, just be safe and smart about it.
As for the Geonosis spires, it would be interesting to investigate a dripped wax technique over a rough armature form. Then a cast could be made of the result and you could crank out a number of objects to slightly modify so they would be more unique from each other.
Best of luck.
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I'd like to echo what Deanpaul said about saftey. Knowing the rules is a great way to protect yourself. They also make some nice Kevlar gloves that are resistant to cuts, and could turn a serious accident into a minor one.
I'd also like to second your input, Deanpaul, on the dripped wax over a frame. That could work well, once it was cast and so on. I know they make aquarium parts you could use, once you repaint them. If you do go that route, wash them with soap and water first. Mine always arive at the stores with this weird powder protection on it, and I'm not sure you want to mix paint or breathe it in.
I've started working on my small playset with the Masonite, to see if I want to partake in a larger scaled project.
So far I'm having trouble making an "imperial" themed blast doorway. I want to have the raised framing, just like a regular door, but for some reason ever time I try, it doesn't come out right, or my computer resizes my measurements come print time...
Kevin
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so....the cheap 100 dollar table saws aren't that realiable?What about a 40$ jigsaw I found?
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I've never heard of anyone wearing kevlar gloves to work on a table saw - doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I just don't see it as a good idea. Knowing the tool and having good contact with the material will protect you better than dressing up. Eye and ear protection are a must, but gloves would be more trouble than help. If you're working on smaller pieces close to the blade use a push stick or feather board, keep you hands away from the blade. A lot of the reports in the second link above talk about forcing material through a bound saw, and finding a quick give/slip that results in injury. The common thread to those stories is that each of those people was doing something wrong when they got hurt. Kevlar gloves wouldn't have protected the majority of those injuries, and certainly woudn't have prevented the issue that caused the injury in the first place. The moral is to know how to use the tool.
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so....the cheap 100 dollar table saws aren't that realiable?What about a 40$ jigsaw I found?
I don't know enough about them to say, Joe. It's going to come down to what you decide to spend. If you're planning on just messing around a smaller investment in tools makes sense. Three or four hundred dollars would buy a lot of Hasbro product.
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so....the cheap 100 dollar table saws aren't that realiable?What about a 40$ jigsaw I found?
If you're planning on just messing around a smaller investment in tools makes sense.
that sounds more like me ;D thanks for your help.
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hmmmmm waht about a hand held scroll saw my dad has one of those would this be able to cut this wood product accuratleyand when attaching the peices the have certain angles to go on, so like one is 45% and the ohter is 45% so the connect to 90%. should i just use a electric sander? or should i use a saw to get the anglei need
dude ur a real help U rock DP
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You're welcome guys.
To get a smoother cut with a hand held jig/scroll saw clamp a board as a guide to the board you want to cut. Just off-set the distance from the blade to the base plate of the saw and run the edge along it as a guide.
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well I got a plan now again,thanks.
p.s. let me change the thread title to woodworking tips .....just incase someone else is fishing through threads to find tips for saws and wood and finds this thread woodworking tips might be what he was looking for.
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I've never heard of anyone wearing kevlar gloves to work on a table saw - doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I just don't see it as a good idea. Knowing the tool and having good contact with the material will protect you better than dressing up. Eye and ear protection are a must, but gloves would be more trouble than help. If you're working on smaller pieces close to the blade use a push stick or feather board, keep you hands away from the blade. A lot of the reports in the second link above talk about forcing material through a bound saw, and finding a quick give/slip that results in injury. The common thread to those stories is that each of those people was doing something wrong when they got hurt. Kevlar gloves wouldn't have protected the majority of those injuries, and certainly woudn't have prevented the issue that caused the injury in the first place. The moral is to know how to use the tool.
I'm speaking of the very tight cut proof gloves of course. I've seen a few folks use them while cutting 2 x 4's at a Habitat for Humanity build I was working on last year. I personally use a push stick when I'm working with the jig saw.
You'd be amazed at how many people use their legs instead of a horse to hold up a plank. I watched a guy cut right into his leg one day. Another friend at a Habitat build was usinga handsaw and needed 28 stitches after he sawed his own hand. How do you not know your doing it after stroke 1 is beoynd me.
Kevin
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How do you not know your doing it after stroke 1 is beoynd me.
lol omg that reminds me of last year in shop class.
Brad this real idiot wasnt using a push stick to push his wprk,
and he looked away for a second and cut that bunch of skin between ur thumb and index finger with a band saw. and it took him an extra minute to figure out he cut himself.
2 weeks later he cut a sliver out of his index finger. he never did learn. LOL
let this story all be a lesson to u never look away from ur work until the blade is off duh. lol, oh saftey glasses my freind took off his saftey glasses and some kid was sanding and a shard came of the stock and almost impaled my freinds eye :-X
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ya know thats a very nice story. ;)
Anyway Tomorrow we're going to sears to look at then tools.(I went online to Homedepot,lowes and Sears added up the 3 things and sears was cheapest because a certain item was on sale.(the table saw)
thanks again for all your guys help,
Joe
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thought ud like it :P lol
i have the money i juast havnt had time to go get some. hey quick ? dp how expensive is the 1/4 material mdf i only have a small budget
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thought ud like it :P lol
i have the money i juast havnt had time to go get some. hey quick ? dp how expensive is the 1/4 material mdf i only have a small budget
1/4" material around here generally comes with one side covered in white plastic laminate and costs less than $20. I think I paid between $12 and $16.
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for how much material (dimensions)
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4x8 sheet.
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thanks u are awsome i guess i caught u at a good time i posted the request on dimensions, went upstairs to put some clothes away, comeback and ur answer is here.
once again thanks for all ur help u've made this much easier for me and the others in our diorama challenge.