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Multimedia => The Original Trilogy => Topic started by: Morgbug on May 20, 2003, 12:21 AM
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ROTJ, Vader's shuttle is landing on Endor. AT-AT can easily be seen slogging along in front of the landing platform.
Why wasn't it there to crush those pesky little Ewoks? ;)
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That's a very good point there! I can only assume it was probably out on patrol, and those things weren't fast enough to have made it back to the battle.
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Endor's a tough thing to explain, and just like the Space Battle I think we miss probably 80% of what is going on there just so the movie fits in a decent ammount of time.
I've always chalked up the lack of AT-AT patrols at the rear bunker to two things.
1) AT-AT's are powerful, but the large trees still tower over them and would cause a vehicle of this size and design a lot of trouble in a tight spot.
Thus the AT-ST makes a better vehicle in the still heavily wooded areas of the Imperial Base. The secondary access bunker was heavily covered with trees, yet the area around the landing platform, and presumably the area around the main generator dish/bunker were probably pretty well de-forested and were the presumed areas of attack...
2) distance...
If the AT-AT walker(s) on-planet are a large distance away, they may not reach the battle area on time... Or simply they were to stay in defense of the heavily de-forested areas around the main bunker and landing platform(s), or other garrison zones.
The AT-ST simply made a better vehicle in a tight area where maneuveability became key though... The AT-AT's maneuverable, especially for its size, but when the canopy of the trees would obscure its vision, and the trees themselves would impede the AT-AT from being effective anyway, the AT-AT(s) probably just hung back near the areas they were most effective in. IE: the cleared out zones nearer to the main areas of the Endor base.
Seeing the AT-AT on-screen in ROTJ is still one of the neater moments of that movie I think... A little reminder of those behemoths that slaughtered the rebels at Hoth. :)
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I agree with Jesse... The ATAT probably wasn't the fighting vehicle of choice in the forests of Endor, and the one that we do spot was dropping off the prisoner (Luke) captured who knows where. Luke could have been captured far away as to divert Imperial Forces to a farther-off location. So while the ATAT and how many ATST's escorted it out to "mop up" the other rebels near the same spot Luke was "captured", the rebels were attacking the back door - out of range.
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Okay, who else wants to see an extended version of the Battle of Endor with AT-ATs blowing away giant redwoods like they were toothpicks? Let's see the Ewok defend against a half dozen of those big boys, George.
(I mean, if you're gonna totally F up the OT, at least have some fun doing it.)
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Well, with the Republicans in control I can see them blowing up some Redwoods
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I'd love to see some AT-AT's blow up the Redwoods. I'd rather see them blow up some Ewoks though! ;D
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I'd love to see some AT-AT's blow up the Redwoods. I'd rather see them blow up some Ewoks though! ;D
I love you guys :'( ;)
Good points. No doubt those babies move really, really poorly in a forested area. The AT-ST's simply make more sense. Just something I thought about (apparently briefly) while watching the movie.
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Well, with the Republicans in control I can see them blowing up some Redwoods
You dirty Democrat. Why I ought to......
Just joking :)
I think the guys commanding the AT-AT's new the power of the Ewoks and took off. They knew they'd be slaughtered by the hijinx of the Ewoks. Why be humiliated in death.
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Yeah, next thing you know the Ewoks would be running out with their lightsabers, after being transformed into Ewok Jedi's by Luke Skywalker.
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Yes, the Teddy Bear Clan.
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Blah blah blah, all explanations for those who cant deal with the fact that the Ewoks are a superior race...
The ATATs would have been easier for our furry little heroes to destroy than the ATSTs. Take out one leg, and the thing is useless. Not to mention there is no close perimeter fire power on an ATAT, so all the Ewoks had to do is swing a dead tree into one of the legs and disable it, they could then shimmy up the sides, or leap from trees and gain entry.
A blaster is no match for a good rock at your side...
;D
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ROTJ, Vader's shuttle is landing on Endor. AT-AT can easily be seen slogging along in front of the landing platform.
Why wasn't it there to crush those pesky little Ewoks? ;)
Was the landing platform near the attack? It would take some time to move through the trees to get to the battle.
Wasn't there too many trees for the AT-ATs to maneuver?
Why didn't they have a bunch more AT-STs?
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Wow, an old topic back in action...
I've always felt that the rear bunker that was attacked was very lightly defended, and that the brunt of the "Legion" the Emperor spoke of were at the main shield generator.
You can tell just by the explosion of the generator (And the shots of how cavernous the power grid to it was) that the whole Imperial property was HUGE. We're talking literally MILES and MILES of base probably.
It's likely that the backdoor the Teddy Grahams showed to Han and company was a legitimate surprise to the Empire that the Alliance knew of it, and attacked there.
PLUS, we have a whole slew of Rebels who came with the group but who aren't present... I've also theorized that they're at the main base causing a bit of a disturbance at the same time Han and Co. attack the rear entrance.
A small backup group is called in for the backdoor attack while the main force stays at the main base protecting it from a possibly larger frontal assault because the Imperials are kind of in the dark on what's going to happen. The AT-AT's likely patrol the cleared out area up towards the main base where they're best suited, and AT-ST's handle anything away from the cleared out forest since AT-AT's would be rendered somewhat ineffective... Not really, but they're just not suited to that kind of combat.
What the Empire doesn't expect is the Teddy Grahams which throw everything into chaos basically. And one officer's stupidity opens the door for Han when he hops in the AT-ST, and voila... The mission is won, basically.
It's a bit of a mess, just like the space battle, but it's still accomplished. :)
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No point in letting a good thread die.
We must remember, it is called a "transport". It was designed to move a mass amount of troops not a primary assault weapon. If it was it would have gun turrets all over it like a B-17 Bomber from WWII.
If it was a primary assault vehicle it would be called an "AT-ABKM" (All Terrain Armoured Butt Kicking Machine).
::)
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We must remember, it is called a "transport". It was designed to move a mass amount of troops not a primary assault weapon.
Well, with only room for 40 troops inside though (If we go by "official" sources that claim that #) it moves very few troops really.
Plus the "Armored" side of things seems to indicate it's meant to trudge into heavy combat situations as well. The AT-ST is also labeled "Transport" in its title but it only carries 2 crew and a maximum of 2 extra folks crammed into the cockpit. So it's not really a "transport" either.
At the battle of Hoth we see the weapons of an AT-AT at full potential, and they do a substntial ammount of damage.
A heavy laser cannon capable of charging up to destroy an armored structure with one shot or fire rapid/less powerful shots on shorter distances. And then 2 pivoting anti-personnel blasters that can cover most any arc the vehicle needs defended... That's pretty heavy duty weaponry to still be hauling 40 troops inside its belly too.
I think the main thing to remember here is the seemingly staggered formations the Empire employs for its walkers. They're not generally meant to be out on their own, but rather they're intended to be in support for each other (If we look at things from an EU Perspective).
The AT-AT is the main "brute" of an Imperial armored column, with AT-ST's in flanking support. The AT-ST's have anti-personnel walkers as well (AT-PT's) to mop up the little stuff, and infantry in support of those. And in the rear lines AT-AA's (Again this is if we follow some EU establishment).
While each walker can function on their own they function better together. AT-ST's appearing to be the most versatile of the group with AT-AT's a close second (AT-AT's performed some nimble tasks that a vehicle that size wouldn't be expected to at Hoth as I recall).
The best, except for certain situations though, would be the AT-AT. In ESB they're seen pinpoint shooting individual infantry, destroying large structures, shooting down fast/difficult aircraft, and all the while they advanced rather rapidly and with minimal support (One AT-ST is seen, it can be assumed more were there, but it wasn't a complete structured/full assault since time was of the essence).
The AT-AT dominated the battle so I really think its front line importance is combat more than transport. Plus again, 40 troops is really not much at all... A platoon at most.
I think the Transport title's very misleading, a nd more a generic term used for many of the Imperial land vehicles with some transporting capabilities.
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Wow, an old topic back in action...
It's likely that the backdoor the Teddy Grahams showed to Han and company was a legitimate surprise to the Empire that the Alliance knew of it, and attacked there.
Yep, that's all they're good for. Snack Food. ;D
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I agree with Jesse... The ATAT probably wasn't the fighting vehicle of choice in the forests of Endor, and the one that we do spot was dropping off the prisoner (Luke) captured who knows where. Luke could have been captured far away as to divert Imperial Forces to a farther-off location. So while the ATAT and how many ATST's escorted it out to "mop up" the other rebels near the same spot Luke was "captured", the rebels were attacking the back door - out of range.
but why the Empire didn't find another type of vehicle to be used on Endor? Ok The AT-AT is too big and the AT-ST is pretty easy to destroy (huh ???)
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Forrest combat's not very conducive to ANY vehicle combat though, which is a real thing to consider with the AT-ST's. An M1 Abrahams in a forrest is at a distinct disadvantage to both traps and human assault as well as attack from other tanks (who would be at equal disadvantage).
I think what we need to ask about the AT-ST is that, if we don't accept the obvious "Lucas didn't think them out much and just wanted them for eye-candy to to explode", then we have to see if there's some explanation for their seeming ease of destruction...
For fire from other combat vehicles of equal power, we only have a brief moment of Chewie firing on a single AT-ST. WE could argue that he has let a couple shots loose before we actually have the camera cut to that moment, as the AT-ST was seemingly stopped for no reason that he was shooting at. Perhaps it had stopped to turn and see who was shooting it? It's plausible... Odd, but it makes an excuse. With that in mind then, we could assume the AT-ST had taken a few shots to its rear portion already, combined with those which it had already taken and any possible damage inflicted by Ewok weapons (perhaps a boulder smacked it in the rear portion?).
Then, if we go by the idea that the AT-ST is slightly weaker in the rear of the command pod, as most armor vehicles are a tad weaker in the rear (Such as the Tiger I from WW2, which required a pretty point-blank and direct hit on its rear to be destroyed by most allied tanks). Chewie blasts the AT-ST he clears out by shots to the rear, so we could assume there's a combination of pre-weakened "hits" there by whatever... A few possible shots Chewie gets in on it from a greater distance that we "miss" or are just off-screen... And last, the idea that AT-ST's have a combination of possibly their energy cell compartments in the rear with a slightly weaker armor point. These things could add up to Chewie's AT-ST being destroyed easily enough.
For the walkers destroyed by the Ewok traps, there's a couple... The hardest to explain is the walker on the wobbly log trap, as that thing seemed to be the Ford Pinto of Star Wars as it just blew to pieces on impact with the ground.
My explanation of the tripping walker would then be that it sustained damage previously... Small arms fire, boulders, or even an Ewok mounting it and pulling and ripping at anything he could, possibly even exposing a fuel-port perhaps? Or maybe even a Rebel collaboration with an Ewok to plant a bomb on it so when it fell it detonated it and caused the most possible damage? There's some possible excuses... Far-fetched or ones that maybe don't seem practical for the situation, but sometimes unpractical events occur in combat that make you scratch your head later too, so it's possible.
For the Log Smash, and for the cutscene one of a single chopped tree collapsing on a walker and crushing it, I believe these to be "reasonable" situations without extra explanation personally. The logs that smashed the command pod of the one AT-ST were roughly the diameter of the pod itself... I think if two logs forcefully came together on a modern US tank, which is a fair bit wider than an AT-ST command pod, then it is reasonable to think they'd do some serious damage to the tank's armor or even be capable of knocking the turret off? It's tough to say without really accurately knowing the weight of the logs, the height they were raised, and such... Technical junk, but just by watching it, it looked reasonable.
I'd say the same for the cutscene of the chopped tree falling straight down on a Walker too, and even moreso because it lit squarely on the top of the AT-ST it destroyed which would put tremendous pressure on the small legs of the Walker and most likely crush the joints of the walker as is what seemed to happen in this Walker's demise scene. Resulting damage for its power supply (star wars vehicles, at least fighters, seem to run off of a fuel so it's reasonable ot think it's possibly combustable and that similar stuff's used on walkers and such) then means explosions all around...
The AT-ST isn't big either, and as a "Scout" as opposed to being referred to as some form of heavy assault-type walker, so its armor likely matches.
I'd say, short of running AT-PT's (a pretty common walker-type from EU we mostly all know), the AT-ST is nimble, heavier armored (than an AT-PT anyway), can handle the valleys and hills/inclines of Endor, and is a simple infantry support vehicle.
The LAV is pretty easily slapped around if it gets caught in a heavy combat situation of any kind (even just infantry), so maybe the AT-ST's simialr to it, without the troop capacity since it could carry 4 or 5 guys at most, counting the crew.
The AT-ST then seems a reasonable choice for Endor. That and infantry. The speederbikes were more cnfusing to me, but I can see their reasoning behind their use, and of course AT-PT's WOULD have been cool to see but are just EU stuff so they ain't there.
I'd say any # of walkers were NEAR the main generator though too... This is a remote area, from what I can gather in the films, but the area surrounding the actual generator itself (where they expected the attack) appears possibly miles (as in hundreds or more even) away from that rear bunker area. That area may have had a pre-fab garrison, landing platform(s), and of course the heavier walkers like the AT-AT's, or other vehicles even. Something expecting a bigger force than a shuttle's worth of Commandoes anyway.
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Jesse hits the nail on the head once again.
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Maybe the nail hit Jesse first?
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I believe the original ROTJ sourcebook around '92 or '93 stated that AT-AT was not logical in a battle application on Endor because of the dense forests. I've always bought into that, but it doesn't account for two factors:
1) The area around the shield bunker was relatively cleared, for the obvious need of constructing the base and generator.
2) The AT-AT is what brought in Luke, so clearly it could travel to a certain point.
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I'm sure main paths had been cleared out from outposts to the bunker, so that AT-AT's and AT-ST's could move about quickly... The AT-AT's probably acted more as anti-air defenses than anti-personnel.
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i no why
because the ewoks could trip the at-at with wire or the trees could be in the way and it might get damaged
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i no why
because the ewoks could trip the at-at with wire or the trees could be in the way and it might get damaged
I'm sorry thats false.
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The ewoks were unable to trip an AT-ST, so I doubt they'd do much good against an AT-AT. Remember in ESB when Luke is at the foot of the AT-AT? Keep that scale in mind.
A redwood could be reduced to toothpicks, if necesarry, so I don't consider the trees to be much of a defense against the AT-AT's either... Course, a forrest full of redwoods = alot of clearing to do. :-\
The AT-ST's are more ideal for the forrest fighting simply because it'd take too long for an AT-AT to systematically destroy every tree in its path. I bet a Star Destroyer battery or TIE Bomber squadron was responsible for clearing out the trees at the bunker's construction, too.
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I believe the original ROTJ sourcebook around '92 or '93 stated that AT-AT was not logical in a battle application on Endor because of the dense forests. I've always bought into that, but it doesn't account for two factors:
1) The area around the shield bunker was relatively cleared, for the obvious need of constructing the base and generator.
2) The AT-AT is what brought in Luke, so clearly it could travel to a certain point.
The AT-AT that brought in Luke was near the generator dish (relatively) and landing platform though, which was a larger more cleared area than the rear-bunker Han and the woks attacked though. That area was still relatively conceiled by woods. Was very "rugged" terrain (All Terrain can be a somewhat ambiguous title for many vehicles, real and fictional) also, which could still render an AT-AT somewhat less effective.
In the film, the explosion of the generator, and the explosion at the rear-bunker are VERY different. The generator, which is a pretty huge item on the forrest floor, blows up and goes for a many-mile radius it seems. Possibly into the 100's even?
The rear-bunker's explosion is minimal though. A small blast out the back door (no fart jokes guys!).
This, to me, implies again that there's a large cleared zone at the generator itself. The actual generator film prop (the dish) had 3 large Death Star-like turrets surrounding it as well. I think this indicates there was a central base. A large, maybe fortified area that was patrolled by AT-AT's, had the landing platform(s) we saw, etc...
AT-AT's were then just the rear-entrance's protection, since an attack wasn't expected there. They perhaps expected a much larger assault on the main portion, rather than a small assault to the rear bunker entrance.