JediDefender.com Forums
Multimedia => The Prequel Trilogy => Topic started by: Brian on April 28, 2005, 03:07 PM
-
Just thinking about the prequel trilogy overall here with the final chapter coming up in a few weeks, and I got to thinking about this. Although TPM is somewhat universally disliked, or at least for the most part, it seems that the one thing people pick out of that movie is "the lightsaber battle is the best ever"...mainly relating to Darth Maul. I agree with that, that battle was unbelievable, and to me...the best part of TPM. I've watched just that portion of the DVD a number of times, while skipping through the rest. While the other problems of TPM can take up a thread of their own, would anyone have liked to see Maul survive into AOTC or even into ROTS? I've seen some people complain that he was offed too quickly, and he really isn't in the overall movie all that much. Do you think that he could have assumed the "Dooku" role in AOTC, and maybe even ROTS? Not saying I don't like Dooku, or that I would like to see more Maul necessarily, but just something I was thinking about. I know seeing Anakin vs. Maul would have been kind of cool ;).
-
Darth Maul was the only "positive" thing (imo) about TPM. With Maul, that movie would have sucked. Well, I guess it sucked even with Maul there, but it would have been a lot worse without him. But I for one was totally shocked when they killed him off. I mean, look at some of the TPM merchandise you have around your house. It doesn't matter what, could be anything from that movie - his face is plastered all over it!! How can you just kill off not only one of the coolest characters, but an obvious fan favorite and your major merchandising machine after 10 minutes of screen time?
-
I was a little shocked that they killed him off, but seeing how the story has unfolded so far, it makes sense.
- If Obi-Wan didn't kill Maul, the council would not have promoted him to Jedi Knight without taking the trials and he probably wouldn't have taken Anakin as a Padawan.
- As cool as Darth Maul was as a Sith he could not have pulled of the deal with the Sepratists. Dooku/Tyrannus was perfect for this since he was much more charismatic and Nute Gunray would not associate him with Darth Sidious, allowing Sidious to still work his plan behind the scenes.
I thought TPM was pretty good, I think the only failing the PT has had is in Lucas' directing ability, or lack thre of. Just remember, you have to see all three movies as one story....kinda like how Lord of the Rings was made.
-
That was the main reason I thought of too, that the story would essentially have to be rewritten if Maul survived. I don't really see his character doing the types of things that Dooku did...with the Confederacy, capturing/attempting to lure Obi-Wan, etc. Just totally different characters in that aspect...both Sith...but one is a charismatic, intelligent leader while the other is more of just an evil "tear it up" fighter.
-
I would have liked Maul to be given more screen time, definately - but I fear if too much was given, Lucas would make Maul a complete puss.
-
I would have been happy if GL had simply kept the scene where Maul forcejumps onto the landing gear of the Queen's ship and continues to battle Qui-Gon in the air, until Obi-Wan opens the door and force-shoves him off.
As cool as Maul was, he was pure rage and no finesse. Kind of like Grievous. Just a blunt instrument to get the job done.
Dooku is far more effective in his role...although, still just a pawn.
-DD
-
Maul was almost perfect as is. I think given the oppretunity to flesh out his character with subsequent film apearances could have ruined the character.
-
Darth Maul.
Never found him even one bit interesting. As intelligent as a Tyranosaurus, just brawl and no brains.
Even Vader had more charisma than Maul.
I agree that keeping him around would've made the story, as we now know it, difficult.
BUT... with him around for 3 movies, you'd have gotten a different PT, and not neccesarily worse.
The whole issue of the CloneWars could've been dealt differently altogether.
And if Maul had truly been the Vader of the PT, he would've clashed with Anakin in the 3rd part, mirroring the ROTJ-fight, and then the turn of Anakin would've happened in there, not by hacking up Mace.
Or with Dooku.
-
Episode 2 could have opened with Darth Maul attacking a certain Senators ship, and two familiar Jedi showing up for the rescue. Some one is there, lurking. Suddenly, a slash of a lightsaber while our two hero's are on the ropes, and Maul drops in half off of the landing platform. Dooku reveals himself, on a goodwill mission, and couldn't let two Jedi die at the hands of sith. They leave, and he is seen eyeing the Senators ship, as Zam aproaches from her speeder.
And the rest could have been the same, except Padme would have lost a handmaiden a bit later. :)
Kevin
-
Maul was almost perfect as is. I think given the oppretunity to flesh out his character with subsequent film apearances could have ruined the character.
Gotta agree. As awesome as the character was, had Lucas given more back story to Maul, it would have ended up like what he did with Boba. No mystery or intrigue if you knew so much about where the character came from.
-
Maul was almost perfect as is. I think given the oppretunity to flesh out his character with subsequent film apearances could have ruined the character.
Gotta agree. As awesome as the character was, had Lucas given more back story to Maul, it would have ended up like what he did with Boba. No mystery or intrigue if you knew so much about where the character came from.
What is so "awesome" about him?
That he does some fancy sabre-work? That's all?
Boba Fett technically does nothing fancy in TESB and ROTJ, but he had a presence.
JAngo Fett, despite all his fight and flight antics, I don't care a bit about him.
Dooku was for more interesting than MAul and Fett and Grievous and Zam and who else put together in the PT. Dooku HAD a backstory, Dooku had charisma as said before, and he could dominate a scene by his sheer presence. Off course, having him played by Chistopher Lee is no small feat either and adds a lot of weight to it, but still, it's an old geeser, yet he shoots younglings like Fett and Maul clear out of the water.
-
I would have to agree with Herbert on this (how about that :o ;) ). Maul had enough screen time to fit his role. He was not a dynamic character, just an exciting screen presence. While I am not a fanatic about all of the side villains in the Star Wars films, I don't dislike them either. They all serve their purpose to tell the story, and while Maul was exciting in his own one-dimensional way, he did not have the charisma or panache of Count Dooku. I think Maul's screen time was appropriate for what it was.
-
I liked Maul a lot for his look and fancy leaps and jumps etc. Substance? No, there was not much there. Lucas could have gave him some more though if he had wanted to. But you guys are right. Dooku is far more interesting and has the charisma to get others on his side, etc. Plus Dooku is tall and most leaders are taller.
All Lucas had to do with Maul was make him more intelligent AND charismatic. It could have been done. In the end it is better to have shown Kenobi's ability to kill a Sith Lord as a Padawan to jump start his Jedi Knight career advancement. That part of the story I like.
However, I liked Darth Maul. I would take flowers to his grave if I could.
-
I was hoping to see the Emperor having cloned the bum a dozen times@
-
hEH, i SHOULD start reading the whole thread before posting.
Anywho, yep Dooku is much better than Maul at doing the leadership.
I just wanted to see some more Maul being their pure rage machine selves and having it out with a mess of Jedi!
The Emperor had 12 years since lossing Maul to get some more. Just Sith Warriors, not masters or with speaking parts just evildoing Jedi. heh
-
Ok one last post lol
they could easily have 3-5 Maul clones. They don't ahve to be copies exactly, I seem to recall his red face was a tatoo anyway. But like since Tyrannus was arranging the clone army, Sidious could have secreted away some of the cloners to develop force sensative clones.
Say it is difficult cuz you can't assure force sensativity. Then have Sidious having trained them for 10-12 years, and unleash them to help start the slaughter of the jedi. Of course get them wiped out for the finale too. And nothing changes!
Like Add a good 6 more Jedi into Mace's arrest party and when they go for Sidious, a door opens and he's a MAUL party! huge saber battle ensues leaving just Mace and Sidious when Anakin shows up.
OOH that'd be great!
-
I'd have just made Maul have a few facets of Dooku's personality, and have him wear a mask or facepaint when he's dealing with the Seperatists, ala Tim Burton's Joker or GI Joe's Destro. Then when he's ready to spank Jedi ass, he takes the mask off revealing his frightening tatooed face.
I think a steel mask being pulled off would have made for a more effective reveal than light pollution hitting his face in TPM.
As for Maul's face being everywhere for the merchandise-- I can't think of another character that had that much presence in TPM, so he was likely the best candidate in subpar competition.
-
Maul CLONES!!!!
-
Hmm I thought about this same possibility once except my vision came up with 3 "Maulers" hiding in a transport that the jedi are using and they get ambushed by these Mauls. The Mauls are defeated with only Tinn, Koon, Fisto surviving while losing 4 other jedis.
-
I really want to post in this even though probably everyone's forgotten about it... ;D
Maul was 100% loyal to Darth Sidious. He never thought about betraying him (even Sidious knows this), which isn't exactly ideal in a Sith - when the apprentice is strong enough, he/she can overcome the master and become the next Sith Master.
Also, Maul was a pawn for Sidious. Which means that he was useful to a certain extent. And it would have taken an even longer time for Sidious' plans to unfold. Why? Because Dooku had all the connections - he was a political leader, and was very wealthy. Maul had none of that. Sidious needed Dooku to launch the Clone Wars and build armies. Maul was simply a warrior.
Therefore, as cool as Darth Maul is, I think his death in TPM was necessary as far as story goes. He's a cool evil dude, but he doesn't do much more than that. Heck, he only speaks once in the entire movie!
-
Does the recent reveal in the Clone Wars cartoon increase the odds that Maul's death with be re-edited in the 3D release of Episode 1?
Obi-Wan just slashes him a little, Maul falls...intact...we see him crawling out of the sewer or something at the end.
Then Boba Fett walks by and winks at the camera. :P
-
Whilst Maul is a visually appealing character he does lack elements of circumstance that Dooku possessed for the CIS leadership job.
That being said I also see Maul as perhaps more of an assassin per Asaaj Ventress now in the CW series.
Yes,he was Sidious' apprentice with Sidious investing a lot of time and effort in bringing Maul to the point we see him in TPM against Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan yet he is able to be defeated by Obi-Wan (which is essential to showing the promise of Obi-Wan force wise).
Anakin being the ultimate apprentice in Sidious' eyes shows that Maul and Dooku were only pawns being used for the time frame they were useful for.
Dooku is dispatched by Anakin at Sidious' behest (as Palpatine) so that the next apprentice can be procured.
Maul being unable to defeat the Jedi would be a failure that Sidious would view as proof he was not fit to be the Sith Apprentice (if my take on the Sith is right).
All in all - he could've been given a little more screen time in TPM sure,but the storyline in the overall PT does not allow for him to be there.
-
I really want to post in this even though probably everyone's forgotten about it... ;D
Maul was 100% loyal to Darth Sidious. He never thought about betraying him (even Sidious knows this), which isn't exactly ideal in a Sith - when the apprentice is strong enough, he/she can overcome the master and become the next Sith Master.
Also, Maul was a pawn for Sidious. Which means that he was useful to a certain extent. And it would have taken an even longer time for Sidious' plans to unfold. Why? Because Dooku had all the connections - he was a political leader, and was very wealthy. Maul had none of that. Sidious needed Dooku to launch the Clone Wars and build armies. Maul was simply a warrior.
Therefore, as cool as Darth Maul is, I think his death in TPM was necessary as far as story goes. He's a cool evil dude, but he doesn't do much more than that. Heck, he only speaks once in the entire movie!
I'd agree with others that Maul would have made a crummy head Sith. However, having Maul around a lot longer probably would have suited Sidious just fine. The Sith Rule of Two is intended to keep them from in-fighting, and yes, when an apprentice becomes more powerful than the master, he knocks him off and becomes the new master. But having an apprentice who craves the top spot is only important if the master will eventually grow old and weak. Palpy seemed to find a way to prolong his life, possibly indefinitely. Given the circumstances, an extremely powerful, but loyal apprentice who wouldn't betray him was probably the best possible Sith apprentice, and maybe even more preferable than Vader. His death forced Palpy to recruit others, but I think its totally plausable that Sidious initially intended to wipe out the Jedi with Maul by his side.
I saw the battle with Obi and Maul very differently as well. Obi-Wan didn't win that fight because he was a better fighter or stronger in the force. Maul was overconfident and wasted time taunting Obi when he should have just finished him off. Obi's perseverence allows him to take advantage of all this when the time is right.
Dooku definitely seemed like more of a stop-gap than an intended long term apprentice. I'm again drawn to Sidious's intentions though...why would he want Dooku to stick around once the Jedi were gone when Dooku was easily ambitious enough to try to off his master? Much better to use him as the face of the Sith, then off him at the end of the war.
I'm probably in the minority, but I liked the Visionaries story with Maul getting artificial legs and tracking Obi-Wan to Tatooine to get revenge. I would have liked to see him get more screen time and wish they had done much more with him (let's be honest here - he's really the only thing good about E1).
-
Just bumping this because I've been thinking about it with the re-release coming up:
Sidious' plot only really makes sense if Dooku is involved from the start. Dooku is integral to the Clone Wars as both a figurehead for the maligned interests of the Separatists to rally around, and a provocation to the Jedi. Maul ultimately is only muscle. I do wish Maul had continued, however. I think it would worked if Dooku at the outset had appeared to be the Sith Master, and Maul was his enforcer. The same dynamic exists in CW with Dooku and Ventress; Sidious by and large is anonymous, and actually his direct participation in the Battle of Naboo was extraordinarily risky given the stakes. It was convenient that the captured Neimoidians didn't give him up.
-
Why couldn't Maul have played the same role as Dooku? We don't really see enough of him to tell what kind of leader he might be.
-
Dooku had the credibility/backstory of being a respected Jedi Master as well as a rich noble. From a story standpoint it's more feasible for the Seperatists to follow Dooku as opposed to Darth Maul.
Also, Darth Maul was outwardly Sith. Dooku was publically regarded as a Jedi who had left the Jedi Order. That adds to his respectability, despite him secretly being in league with the Sith. That deception and the ensuing manipulation served the Sith cause far more than Darth Maul's martial skills. Plus, Dooku's departure from the Jedi Order casts doubt on the status of the Jedi in the Republic.
The political machinations of the Prequel Trilogy are there, but they lie a little bit beneath the surface.
-
I've read snippets of the 'Wrath of Darth Maul' biography novel that pretty much is a tie-into for the future TCW episodes and these are the conclusions I can gather...
- Maul is a FALLEN Sith Lord. Dooku's the new Sith, so I guess this means Maul's been demoted (you gotta feel bad for the poor guy. Lost his lower half AND Sith title).
- It seems Maul has contracted a bad case of amnesia over the years. Should be interesting to see what his intentions are once he remembers who he was and what he wants to do with the galaxy.
- He has to die (and stay dead!) within this show. I could see him waging a second war, against the Jedi, within the Clone Wars, but this would mess with way too much canon. And besides, being that there's naturally no mention of him in ROTS and after, it's likely he won't make any long-term damage. I can't even see him lasting past Season 4 of the show, but who knows, why bring back Maul from the dead if you're going to feature him in the season finale only?