JediDefender.com Forums
Multimedia => The Original Trilogy => Topic started by: Jim on September 21, 2004, 09:18 AM
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I am probably one of the few, but I dont mind the changes. Will I miss the originals? Of course. But I can kind of see where Lucas is coming from. I actually wish he would of restored some of the cut scenes. Especially the Biggs at Anchorhead. That bothers me the most since we see Luke at the end talking with Biggs and this earlier scene would of added more to the ending dialogue with Luke and Biggs. The Greedo scene will always bother me this is the only thing I hate and disagree with Lucas. Han was never meant to be a nice guy and this new scene does not fit. As far as the other scenes, eg: Jabba, Emperor in ESB, I really like. I just wish the cantina scene was cut differently with some of the aliens from the Prequels. Some of this scene seems really dated. For continuity sake we never see many Prequel aliens in the OT. Let the bashing begin ;D
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I don't mind the changes...some of the execution has been shoddy but for the most part it works. The Anchorhead scene has been said was cut because it screwed up the flow of the movie. I don't know why it wasn't added to the discs. Again...probably because he didn't want to spend the money on restoring those prints. Or they are so bad he can't get them done
The new Anakin at the end is a shoulder shrugger but I'll take his word that he was never finished and if he can continue to improve them with new technology then so be it
I'm also not a fan of the Prequel aliens and the bastardization they have done with the looks with the new masks. Again its a technology thing but to have the Aqualish move from a Walrus/Mammal type species to some weird Spider thing and have the Biths turn to something totally weird and have the Weequay look totally different...I don't think the OT aliens should change its the PT aliens that mucked it all up. Adding a Neimodian or whatever Watto is or a Gungan to the Cantina may be cute but also unnecessary, IMO
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I'm also not a fan of the Prequel aliens and the bastardization they have done with the looks with the new masks. Again its a technology thing but to have the Aqualish move from a Walrus/Mammal type species to some weird Spider thing and have the Biths turn to something totally weird and have the Weequay look totally different...I don't think the OT aliens should change its the PT aliens that mucked it all up. Adding a Neimodian or whatever Watto is or a Gungan to the Cantina may be cute but also unnecessary, IMO
Im not looking for huge changes in this aspect. I just wish maybe 1 or 2 prequel aliens would of been added. It looks like dozens of races were wiped out in a 30 yearr span. After watching the bonus disc, I was really disappointed that the cut scenes were not available. Sure, there available on the CD-Room, but its just not the same. Im also a little confused and disappointed with the continuity of the ESB Emperor scene. Im glad they added the footage, but the dialogue does not follow the beginning of the film. Unless this is answered in EP3 and Vader is aware of Luke all alone and is hiding his presence from the Emperor.
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I for one don't mind them... At least not the majority.
When the SE's came out, 2 things, and 2 things only stuck out to me as "bad" ideas right away. Later, I'd say 3 or 4 possibly... But they're things I was easily living with.
For me, the two things I hated, absolutely HATED, were:
1) Han shooting first... Asinine in its inception, and deplorable in its execution. The scene looked fake, and to me short of 100% changing it to Han blasting Greedo cold turkey, I can't see it being "fixed" totally.
Han's a bad ass. Han murdering Greedo, and by the context of their conversation it IS murder because Han DOES owe someone money and is ducking them, and he DOES shoot Greedo under the pretense that all he'd lose is his ship to Jabba, not his life unless he tries physically stopping them from taking the Falcon.
And I like Han that way myself. I like him being just a nutjob with a gun out in the galaxy. Lucas's skewed sense of "nobility" when he's trying to make a galaxy that touches every one of your senses as being "real" just strikes me as stupid. Don't make Han anything more than he was originally in the film. A scoundrel scumbag who's redeemed. In a sense, he was pulled from the darkside himself by the very thing (love/attachment) that sends Vader to the Darkside.
That makes Han a much more deep sidestory.
Anyway, and...
2) Luke's sissy ass scream on Bespin. Lucas fixes this on the DVD though, so no harm no foul. The mere thought he was making an improvement there is disturbing to me though.
I mean, one little thing can totally RUIN an entire sequence... What the F dude, Seriously?
The runners up then are:
1) Jedi Rocks... I didn't like it, and I feel Lapti Nek was MUCH better. Boy am I glad I got the soundtrack box set ages ago wtih the full Lapti Nek on it before they killed it.
Jedi Rocks also includes my dislike for CGI Sy over puppet Sy. While Puppet Sy makes an appearance, CGI Sy sucks. Joh Yowza's ok and all, but I feel the whole sequence is mucked up by the song mostly. Lapti Nek was much more "alien" sounding to me, and less blatantly "comical" in attempt than Jedi Rocks. plus, Jedi Rocks as a title blows goats.
2) The ending sequence where the music's altered around, and we see all the planets rejoicing... While I can see the point of seeing all the planets rejoicing, I think it skews time and the time it'd take for the "word" to get out to all these hick planets.
It has its place and all, but I just am not all that fond of it I guess... The song replacement sucks too because I liked Celebrate The Love in its original format much more over whatever the new song is. I don't know why.
Now, as far as that goes...
I liked the rest.
I liked the beak on the Sarlacc personally. I think it adds a menacing look, and suddenly the Sarlacc's not a vagina with teeth, which I think I've dated some girls that could have that analogy made of them, but I digress.
I liked the openess of Cloud City, and think it really enhances what was one of the more bland sequences of ESB, IMO.
I like the Han/Jabba exchange in Docking Bay 94, and personally I like Fett's glare at the camera. I think the dialogue establishes Jabba as not such a bad guy... A "real" character, instead of the evil slug we see in ROTJ. He's not just a jerk, he's a jerk running a business getting screwed by another jerk, but a jerk who he sort of likes and wants to give a 2nd (or 3rd even) chance to. Plus I liked his thug gang of Rodians and dirty humans. Cool... But the animation sucked the first time... I'm happy they changed it though, and I think it's neat when he steps on Jabba's tail, again establishing what a douche Solo is actually as a person. I can stomach the CGI, which when technology changes every month practically, I can even let it pass because it is merely dated more than actulaly "bad work" as it were.
I like the whole Mos Eisley expansion. I think the city needed to be bigger like it is, I liked the swoop dude cutting off the Ronto, which I liked Ronto's overall... I like the enhanced speeder driving around with scurriers running... I liked the various craft landing and taking off.
I'm 50/50 on the Cantina addition of the Pacithip, etc... Cool in a way, but I liked the wolfman myself. Then again, I see Lucas's point that it's cheesey, and in the end I got my Lak Sivrak figure so, I can live with the cut.
I like the X-Wings and TIE's at Yavin, and only would I add MORE fighters if I were to make a change... More X-Wings or Y-Wings, and I'd have a brief shot of A-Wings buzzing off to do some high-altitude covering/diversion perhaps.
I'd have changed Endor to have MANY more ships as well. Far more than what I'd want at Yavin of course, but I'd actually like to have seen a bigger battle at Endor. I imagine a Blockade Runner suiciding into the bridge tower of a Destroyer or something, addition of a B-Wing assault intercut with the background destroyer's explosion or something to imply they were the ones blowing it up as was originally intended, added fighters, maybe add another freighter similar in design to the Falcon... Add more Rebel Cruisers going toe-to-toe with Destroyers to imply a greater series of old-style naval combat going on.
That's just something I WOULD add if I were in charge...
I like the wampa on Hoth, and I think it was a nice addition. I think however that the Wampa in Echo Base would've been better as an addition.
I like the Biggs/Luke exchange at the Hangar... I think it deepens Luke's loss and has an element of loss in war that the film doesn't always convey. The same kind of element I think the final battle is missing witht he Falcon NOT being destroyed (with Lando) when it blows up.
I like the addition of the Stormies in the hangar being in the hundreds if not thousands. It makes Han's over-zealous 'rounding of the corner much more comical, but in a GOOD way.
And I think that's about it...
Overall I like the improvements.
On the DVD, which I've not gotten to watch yet, but I have seen some of the changes, I like the Vader/Emperor change for Empire... I think that's important.
I think the Imperial March should've been added to Vader's arrival in ANH on the Tantive IV. Just a personal quip there.
I DON'T like Temura Morrison's voice-over of Fett. Lucas doesn't realize (or care, or whatever) that accents aren't genetic, and Morrison's acting is deplorable. He did better on the freaking Bounty Hunter game. Fett's old voice was more memorable and menacing.
Beyond that, I'm pretty content though. I'm REAL happy Lucas didn't change the STormtrooper voices to leave that up to fans. That all but concludes any argument about Stormies being Clones to me. It says "You decide" rather than "Yeah, I decided to scrap all my EU and make them all Clones". Lucas actually giving EU a nod is nice.
So, that's my figurin' on this.
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Did anyone notice the sound when Obi-Wan appears is different? Its not the rehashed Dewback sound anymore, but some sort of shrill crazy noise. I thought a police car went by my apartment the first time I watched it, so I skipped back, and sure enough it was changed.
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I still don't like the Han shooting first thing, and my other major gripe was fixed on the DVD- Luke's sissy yell.
I'll be able to live with the slightly corrected Han shooting first thing on the DVD. It doesn't look near as bad as the 1997 version.
I didn't mind the new Emperor scene in ESB. I almost like it more this way. I noticed the credits still have Clive Revill's name in them as the voice of the Emperor.
But, I do feel that there are enough changes to these films. Just stop NOW.
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I don't mind the Han/Greedo scene now, and the Jabba scene is much much better. I actually really like the added Emperor scene and I think it adds some depth to Vader's character. It shows that he's looking for Luke on his own and has not told the Emperor. When the Emperor teels Vader about Luke, Vader plays dumb but when the Emperor says "Search your feelings, you know it to be true", it seems like Palpy is letting Vader know that he knows what Vader has been up to.
The thing that I hate and I wish they would change back is that horrible kiddie song in Jabba's Palace in ROTJ. That scene sticks out like a sore thumb and does not fit at all with the "feeling" of SW. And I cannot stand that shot of the Weequay banging those drums. UGH!
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I don't mind the CGI Jabba "as much" now in the DVD. I can even tolerate the tail being stepped on "better" now. I still don't like the Greedo shooting first and never will.
But other than that I liked the changes for the most part. The new hologram Emperor looks really great with McDiarmid in there now. I'm a bit surprised by some of the new dialogue. Not sure if I like Vader asking "How is that possible." about Luke being Anakin's son. I thought it was established that Vader knows Skywalker by that point and even hunting him down. But whatever that scene looks much better IMO.
All in all the films look fantastic on the DVD. I'm super happy with it. They should do until the collasal 6 DVD set (or more) comes out after ROTS :)
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I always figured Vader was hunting Luke because he blowed up the Death Star. But I've thought that since I was five years old, so I'll bet I'm wrong.
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I subscribe to the theory that Vader is playing dumb with the Emperor. What makes it confusing is we don't know for sure at this point that Anakin knows he has a son. I'm spoiler free, but I'll bet that he does, and he knows Luke is his son, and he's slow playing the Emperor.
And I love the new Emperor scene, by the way.
As for the overall changes, I don't mind them. He fixed the two most galring mistakes of the SE (already mentioned above) and I wish he would release the originals just for the sake of history, but one thing I think many fans are forgetting is, what is the original?
Is is the the first version of SW, without the Episode 4 - A new Hope tag? Is it the very first early version of ESB, which did not contain a couple shots at the end which made the orientation of the Falcon relative to the fleet confusing?
These have been changing since day one. Star Wars is a work by a living writer - like many writers (most) - the work isn't really 'complete' until (gasp) he's dead. It's like language; it's a living, breathing thing. It doesn't ever stop changing or growing until it dies.
The SW saga will not even be complete until next summer, so really what we're watching is the theatrical demonstration of a writer revising his first draft. Just so long as he makes the varied drafts available for posterity, I'm ok.
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I think the new Emperor scene in ESB is fantastic, but what ruins it for me is that earlier in the film Vader mentions Skywalker by name to Admiral Ozzel - how Lucas could have missed such a glaring anomaly is beyond me!
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After watching the DVD's a few times now, what really bugs me is the space fight scene after the Falcon escapes the DS. Lucas should of gone CGI with this. The ships move way to slow and similar and that blocking around the ships friggin drives me nuts. Also, they should of addded some more ships attacking. Come on, the DS only sends only 4 ships out after the Falcon. Does this make sense to anyone else ???
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While I'm not okay with these changes, I'll repeat what I said in my other review of the box set: If I have to deal with them to get these films in this high quality of a print/transfer, then I'll go with it. The picture and sound quality out weighs the changes George has made over the years, at least to me. Would I love the unmolested versions to be put out on proper DVD's? Hell yeah. But until that day, I'll galdly watch these, and just go to the kitchen for some snacks when some of the longer BS parts come on.
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D'oh! You can delete this. I saw that people noticed this in the appropriate thread...my bad. :-[
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Excellent, excellent article regarding the Trilogy, artist rights, and censorship.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/commentary/?id=1477&p=.htm
I don't know where this guy came up with the idea that fans think they own the films (I don't see it here on these boards) but I'm liking the whole censorship thing. I know it's a commentary, but one would be daft not to recognize the growing threat of censorship.
Anyway, that's a topic for another thread. I still say they're Lucas' films, but I'd love to have the previous versions available on DVD, with the same lavish treatment this set got.
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I was just reading through everyone's comments on the changes to the OT, with the new DVDs being released next week. Do most of you still feel the same way? Are you "ok" with most of the changes, and just having a few things that bother you?
I agree with the same scenes many have already listed here. I'd also rather see "Han shoot first", as I think pretty much everyone has agreed on. I also didn't like the Luke "sissy yell", which has since been fixed. Part of me likes the original song (Lapti Nek) in Jabba's Palace, as well as the "yub yub" ending song in ROTJ. I kind of miss those, and wouldn't mind if they would have been left alone. I would have been ok with leaving Boba's voice alone too. Other things were improvements, and I definitely appreciate the clarity and some digital enhancements that really make things look nicer. I know when the original OT box set first came out in 2004 - I couldn't believe how clear they looked compared to my previous VHS versions. Anyways, how do you feel about the changes at this point? Do you have a "definitive version" that you watch when you do sit down to watch the OT?
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I was rereading this as well. I don't know. I go back and forth on some of the changes I guess. All in all I am glad Lucas did something with the OT. As it did help update the films and at least get them back out there in the public's eye. Granted he makes a ton of mula each time but he could just as easily said screw it, I'm rich, I'm not messing with those films anymore.
For ANH - I still don't really care for them making Han step on Jabba's tale. That almost bugs me as much as Han not shooting Greedo first. Like I said earlier I think they made Jabba look better in 2004 at least. I don't mind the Boba Fett cameo either...I know a ton of people hate that though. I like how Mos Eisley is opened up I just wish it was not THAT big of a spaceport but for the most part I don't mind it. The Jawas falling off the Ronto does not get me upset either. I am impressed with most of the CGI done for the Death Star scenes at the end. I don't really care for the halos around the Death Star or Alderaan. I think the original explosions look more realistic....then again I've not seen that for a long time.
For ESB - I like most of the changes really. I actually like the Wampa scenes. Again I like the Emperor with Ian McDiarmid now. I do like how they opened up Bespin as well. The added Imperial Shuttle scene is kind of cool. Although I don't like Vader's voice when he's calling for it. It just sounds bad. At least they took away Luke's wussy yell in 2004. I do like the extened or added scene of Slave I following the Falcon.
For ROTJ - I like Oola's extended scene falling into the Rancor Pit. The song with the Jabba Dancer's does not bother me either. I don't say I love it. I could take it either way. I know a lot of people really that that though. I don't like Boba Fett hitting on that dancer Rystaal. I thought that was quite lame. I guess now that we know he's human it's a tadbit better....no it's not :) I actually like the new ending with the Ewoks and the song. All the globe hopping at the end though is kind of bland though. As far as young Anakin's ghost goes...I tend to like Sebastian Shaw in there better. I am not furious over that change though.
Some other stuff like the stormtrooper's voices now match Morrison's voice...it's okay. I don't think it was necessary but then a lot of changes were not. I do like the fact that they tried to cleanup the matte lines especially in ESB. They have a lot of nice touches along the way.
All in all though I hope Lucas makes the originals available on all future re-releases on DVD.
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I must the only one who likes the new song at the end of ROTJ. I never much cared for the "Yub Yub" song that was there originally.
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With Star Wars i find more to roll my eyes about than praise. The whole Han/Greedo thing has been well explored,so just put me in the "Nay"camp reguarding that one.
The only other big dislike would be the digitised show down with Jabba in the docking bay. There are so many things wrong with this scene...repeated Greedo/Han dialouge,The tail step,Fett hanging around with a group of pea green motorcycle leather wearing extras....just wrong.
Having vented all that some changes are geniune improvements. All the subtle tweaks,refinements and new hues to old fim stock look very nice indeed! R2 about to encounter the Jawas,The lumbering Sandcrawler,Luke looking wistfully at binary sunset -these are all inprovements.
The final kind of change leaves me feeling ambiguous. An example would be the expansion of Mos eisley. On the one hand it's a great testament to Lucas' flair for peripheral detail. On Another this new industrious spaceport takes away from the impact of solitary tribes defending thier turf and eeking out an existence with whatever resources they can. Why buy half broken product from Jawa when you can nip into the old speeder and whizz down to Mos "The Mall" Eisley?.
With "Empire" almost everthing is a worthwhile addition, The only major exception would be Morrison becoming Boba. Quite frankly his "Clone" heart just isn't in it!
Jedi's changes don't bother me as its a film can take or leave.
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For me it depends on the change. In Empire, I think all of the changes work save for Vaders new dialogue when he boards his shuttle, I don't think the voice sounds like Vader.
For ANH, it's half and half, I like the replaced dog fight shots, but hate Greedo shooting first and the Jabba scene. I also read somewhere that they shaved frames off of Imperial Officers getting hit by laser blasts. If this is true, that was just a sad change.
Jedi, I think I'm against most of he changes. The new musical number in Jabbas palace is just embarrassing, even more-so than the original. I like the sprit of the celebration montage, but it just doesn't feel like it's part of the movie and I hated Hayden Christensen replacing Sebastian Shaw.
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i almost became an againsit the changes person when the dvds first came out, but quickly realized it was a good thing when i found myself standing infront of a tv at Best Buy watching return of the jedi for the first time in a little under a year, which all starwars fans should know how strange it would be to go that long without watching any starwars films.
but i'm totally ok with the changes and would like to see certain things changed in the future, but as far as prequel edtions to the OT i've come to except hayden. but i think the line needs to be drawn there.
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Some of the changes I don't mind, like prettying up the shots of the Sandcrawler in Episode 4, just to give one example. Most of the changes, though, I don't think add anything to the film and in some cases, it seems to take away something, it messes with the pacing. I *hate* that he took Sebastian Shaw out and put in Hayden, and I *hate* that Greedo shoots first. It's also annoying that FX problems (like the visible pole when the Falcon is brought into the Death Star and the white lightsaber after Vader kills Obi-Wan) were not fixed when they easily could've been.
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What I disliked:
Greedo shoots first, didn't Lucas want Han's character to change like Vader & Luke. The whole joke is gone too. :'(
Jabba in ANH, he looks to TPM-ish, he should look ROTJ-ish
Boba's new voice, even though he is a clone dosen't mean he has to sound like Jango. Though at times the voices sound the same, "Put Capt. Solo in the cargo hold" sounds sorta like the old guy
"Jedi Rocks" of course "Lepti Nek" is annoying too. ::)
Editing out Wolfman! SW needs werewolves! :P
What I liked:
Bespin halls/ Bespin new look, looked cooler
Tons of stormies, when han screams
Tie Fighters w/o boxes
ESBs new Palps look, dosen't only tie the PT to the movie but ROTJ! :)
No "Yub,Yub" song! The new song sounds more victorious.
Stuff that should of been added, hopefully in next update:
Vader's entrance in ANH should be "Imperial March", really "Bum,bum,bum,buuuum!" sounds really cheesy when we have the March, Vader's them.
Deleted scenes like R2 getting attacked by the wampa,etc...
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good changes but the Anakin change at the end of VI with Hayden Christianson was bad, because we have a 28 year old Luke looking at his 23 year old father
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Changing Fetts voice in Empire was stupid.
Accents are regional at best, and Morrison didnt deliver Fetts lines with any menace at all, it just sounded rushed and weak.
Jabba docking bay could have done without, it never looked right, the song in jabbas palace I could have handled if they left the ewok song at the end and putting Hayden in the end was the most stupid thing ever, it didnt make any sense what so ever, he left the light side looking like that , but rejoined the force as an old man , why would his spirit look like he's 23? While he was at it , why didnt he just replace Sir Alec with Ewan ???
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I didnt care for Temeura Morrison rushing his Fett lines, they were weak, I mean Temeura is cool but it sounds like he did it over a telephone with a bad connection.
I loved the celebration part, kind of like the whole empire has collapsed and everybody for once can be happy.
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Changing Fetts voice in Empire was stupid.
Accents are regional at best, and Morrison didnt deliver Fetts lines with any menace at all, it just sounded rushed and weak.
Jabba docking bay could have done without, it never looked right, the song in jabbas palace I could have handled if they left the ewok song at the end and putting Hayden in the end was the most stupid thing ever, it didnt make any sense what so ever, he left the light side looking like that , but rejoined the force as an old man , why would his spirit look like he's 23? While he was at it , why didnt he just replace Sir Alec with Ewan ???
He seems to respect the old main actors enough to not re-make the OT. ::)
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I agree with most of you about the changes. Wish he'd leave the movies alone for the most part.
I am glad that they changed the end music for Jedi because the Ewok Victory song was silly. Never liked it as a kid and that was who the Ewoks were aimed at. Plus the new Victory theme and the montage of different worlds was great because the Empire effected all of those places for the most part and it shows the galaxy wasn't happy with Palpatine's reign. It wasn't the Ewoks that won the war, but humans, Mon Calamari, Sullustans, etc. It was an effort on several humanoid and alien races.
One thing that kind of gets me weird is the extra scene of the Slave I following the MF... I'm so used to the music changing at that point.
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well if were gonna apply the same logic with which flaws are looked upon by staff around here,
"don't think so much, just enjoy the movie...."
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well if were gonna apply the same logic with which flaws are looked upon by staff around here,
"don't think so much, just enjoy the movie...."
Funny...I find it hard to not think about Hayden Christensen standing where Sebastian Shaw should be at the end of ROTJ. :) Nice attempt at jabbing the staff here, but your argument isn't even in the same vein.
And regarding the changes to the OT, I say "shame on George Lucas". I'm not talking about the visual enhancements such as cleaning up the Rancor and Hoth scenes...those were fine and I think anyone with the resources would be all over that opportunity. What sickens me is adding scenes and making modifications just because he can. The Hayden/Sebastian switcheroo is the most painful and outrageous for me to watch...ROTJ is my favorite of the bunch, and it's gut-wrenching to end the movie - no, the saga - that way. Others - like the Sandtrooper droids, Jabba in ANH, Jabba in ANH again, new Rebo sequence, etc, etc - were utterly pointless, poorly done, looked incredibly out of place, and were there for no other reason than for GL and LFL to say "Hey, look at our sexy technology." The only addition I can stomach is the addition of newer angles and shots in the ANH Death Star battle. Pointless, but it does look pretty good. :)
I understand that these are his movies and he has every right to do what he pleases with them, but it doesn't mean I have to like it. I find it disrespectful to the original actors, the original crew and special effects people, the fans, and the art of movie making in general that he's so quick to dismiss what the originals were and still are, and attempt to shamelessly modernize each film.
John
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If anyone purchased issue #88 of the old star wars insider you would no about the eyebrow mistake they did in the unveiling of darth vader. in the original vader had eyebrows but that was not correct for a burn victim so when the dvd relese came out they etided that out ;)
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Makes sense to me.
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The changes make sense to me to keep in line with the prequels, especially changing the Jedi Spirit of Anakin Skywalker from Sebastian Shaw to Hayden Christensen.