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Multimedia => The Prequel Trilogy => Topic started by: LandotheScoundrel on February 1, 2005, 05:40 PM

Title: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: LandotheScoundrel on February 1, 2005, 05:40 PM
I just inundated myself with the spoilers from main page of MilleniumFalcon.com, and I had an intersting idea. I'm sure someone else has drawn this conclusion, but I haven't seen it anywhere.

In the spoilers, there's the idea that Darth Sidious was the apprentice of Darth Plagueis. Apparently, Darth Plagueis learned to control the force to create life. Sidious learned the technique from him before he killed him. I then started thinking about the whole "virgin birth" thing, and wondered if we'll be discovering that Sidious created Anakin through the force. It certainly would be the "holy ****" moment we've been missing with the PT.

Anyone else thought about this?
Title: Re: *Spoiler* About Anakin's birth...
Post by: LandotheScoundrel on February 1, 2005, 05:41 PM
D'oh! I meant to put this in the Episode3 movie section. Can one of you mods move this for me?  :-X
Title: Re: *Spoiler* About Anakin's birth...
Post by: Scott on February 2, 2005, 05:53 PM
I bought the recent SW issue of Vanity Fair and Lucas specifically talks about the "virgin" birth of Anakin.  How most people didn't catch that or its not discussed enough.  He believes its one of the biggest points of the prequels.  Not sure if he has a twist behind it or not. 

I think...future generations watching them in sequential order will be shocked when in they find out Sidious and Palpatine are one in the same.  That is the I gotcha of the Prequels.  Its just that we all know it already which sort of takes away from the coolness of the moment. :-\
Title: Re: *Spoiler* About Anakin's birth...
Post by: Nicklab on February 2, 2005, 10:46 PM
The whole story of Darth Plagueis certainly leads you to believe that Sidious may have had some "influence" in Anakin's conception.  I think this is one thing we're going to have to wait and see in the movie.
Title: Re: *Spoiler* About Anakin's birth...
Post by: Darth Broem on February 3, 2005, 08:53 AM
I don't know fellas.  When I first heard about the virgin birth thing  I thought he just did that so fans would not want another trilogy about Anakin's dad.  It would not surprise me at all if Lucas spins it so that Sidious had something to do with it like you say. 

However, Lucas is still blabbing on about that midiclorian concept.  Something about the Force speaking through the cells and they create Anakin someway.  I think something about that was in the Vanity Fair article to? 

I doubt Sidious has control over that situation.  I don't understand what Lucas is getting at though with the whole midiclorian thing anyway. 

Color me confused until I see ROTS. 
Title: Re: *Spoiler* About Anakin's birth...
Post by: Deanpaul on February 24, 2005, 10:35 AM
I think...future generations watching them in sequential order will be shocked when in they find out Sidious and Palpatine are one in the same.  That is the I gotcha of the Prequels.  Its just that we all know it already which sort of takes away from the coolness of the moment. :-\

I understand where you're coming from Scott.

In sequence, we get the "gotcha" as Palp=Sidious...

In OT first, then PT sequence, we get the "gotcha" as "Luke, I am your father..."

I think the Vader reveal in ESB is far more interesting to the plot, considering how it turns the whole triolgy on it's head and even at the end of ESB we're left wondering if he's lying. How could the most evil guy in the universe be the father of the hero? Noooooooooooo! At that time, we still don't know a lot of what is to come from Palp in ROTJ, and Vader is still the big action baddie.

I wish the PT would hide the fact that Vader had children from him, or lead him to think they died (still hope there) - and especially hide the fact that  twins were born (hide from Vader and the audience) so that Leia could be a "gotcha" in the OT, even if the Vader as Luke's father thing is known... Blah, blah, blah.

I'm bummed we couldn't have more of a surprise "turn the PT on it's head" twist in ATOC. Lucas talks a lot about trilogy. How ANH introduces characters and problems and then how at the end of ESB the characters are in their worst possible scenario. ROTJ is all about concluding the hero's journey. I know the PT is not the hero's journey, but rather the descent into what happens in the OT - but I'd still like a more emotional "we're all screwed" at the end of ATOC like we saw in ESB to set the stage for ROTS.

There is something mechanical and paced about the PT in the way the action has unfolded. Not that it's been predictable, it just feels like a forced march to a forgone conclusion.
Title: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: CorranHorn on May 20, 2005, 02:56 AM
I don't know how many people caught it, it took my 2nd viewing to try to fully understand it, but when Palpatine and Anakin have their conversation in the opera, it seems to me that Palpatine implicates he created Anakin.

Remember, Palpatine relates the story of Darth Plagus (sp?) and how his mastery of the Dark Side was so powerful, that he could use the Force to manipulate the midichlorians into creating life and how his downfall came at the hands of his apprentice, who he taught everything he knew. Palpatine doesn't say it outright, but he is that apprentice. As he gets to the point about creating life, the look on his face reveals to me that he's saying "yeah I created you!" Now if he did so, i think it was for the purpose of making Anakin so powerful in the Force (he says during his battle with Yoda, that Anakin will be more powerful than the two of them), then taking physical control of Anakin's powers or even his body (if you follow the EU lore that Palpatine could jump bodies when his physical body dies). Of course that falls apart when Anakin gets burnt up and becomes more machine than man.

My friend who saw the movie both times with me has a different view. She contends that Plagus created Anakin because he could (as a way of discovering his newly found powers) and that Palpatine is taking advantage of his master's creation cause he sees the power in Anakin. Whether it's to use the power to his advantage or to curb it to prevent his downfall, she could not say.

So what do you think? Who is Anakin's "father", is it Palpatine or Plagus? Or is it neither and just one of those mysteries we will never know, like the name of Yoda's species.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Jesse James on May 20, 2005, 04:59 AM
I'm more leaning towards' your friend's interpreation Jason, only because that's what first came to my mind...  My gut reaction was that Palpy didn't do that but Plagus did...  Which is sorta neat.

It was like he was setting up a new apprentice to rid himself of his old one, and then his old one killed him off...  It fits with the whole "Sith are always trying to one-up each other" way they're established in the films...

Hell, even Vader's looking to undo Sidious before they even really hung out as master/apprentice!  I mean, wait till the body's cold or something...  He wanted to take over right away!

Yeah I can see your side, as Palpy does say "He taught his apprentice everything he knew", but at the same time Palpy doesn't talk up that HE could do that...  Manipulate the Midi's to form life.

BTW that makes the Midichlorians thing almost seem pseudo-ok to me...  I'm still grappling with accepting that really, but it actually gave purpose to E1's establishment of the force as being a physically detectable thing, but as well as being something mystical and powerful beyond comprehension as well.

Anyway I'm babbling but that's a good point.  I've been thinking about this since Tuesday night myself.  I caught it right away and was bummed we DIDN'T get his birth all wrapped up as to how/why it was done.

And then how did all that "chance" **** happen that Qui and Obi just happen upon him on Tatooine and all that... 
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Gatillo on May 20, 2005, 10:03 AM
I favor theory #2, not Palpi but Plagus. 
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Scott on May 20, 2005, 10:30 AM
In the Making of ROTS book in an early version of the script Palpatine tells Anakin that:

A. He created him through the Force and was basically "his father"
B. Dooku arranged for his mother's capture and death

I don't know what I think about not tying that up, its sort of implied that The Force made Anakin and not necessarily Palpatine.  By implying that it almost says the Devil made Anakin which if taken allegorically, it says that Anakin is the AntiChrist which would mean he has no redemptive qualities at all.  When taken with the whole story, that makes no sense.  So, I think the idea was thrown out because of that
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Jeff on May 20, 2005, 10:45 AM
I look at it this way (with only 14 hours post-viewing to develop my theory)...

The Sith created Anakin through an "evil" manipulation of the Force.  Whether it was Plagius or Sidious, I don't know for sure.  I think it's safe to say that the movie implied that Anakin was created by one of them...

Because he was created by the Force by means of Sith manipulation, I think that is why, as Jesse pointed out, Qui-Gon found Anakin by "chance".  I think that the Force lead the Jedi to find Anakin in some sort of attempt to save him from his Dark Destiny. 

It's like the Force knew that this poor kid was doomed unless someone could intervene to try to save him.  Maybe if he was able to get some Jedi Training then there would be some semblance of "good"" in him, a sense of "right" would be instilled in him.

Eh, who knows...

Jeff
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Darby on May 20, 2005, 09:56 PM
I personally think Palpatine created Anakin, mainly because it answers a big nagging plot hole in TPM - how Darth Maul found the heroes on Tatooine.  I could be wrong, and maybe Palpatine's scheme isn't that grandiose, but you never know.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: amarsella on May 20, 2005, 10:18 PM
I personally think Palpatine created Anakin, mainly because it answers a big nagging plot hole in TPM - how Darth Maul found the heroes on Tatooine.  I could be wrong, and maybe Palpatine's scheme isn't that grandiose, but you never know.


I like the idea that Plagues created Anakin to replace Sideous. Then, when Sideous found out he took out Plagues and continued with the plan to use Anakin.

If I were playing with my action figures that's the story I'd use.  ;)
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Famine on May 21, 2005, 10:25 PM
Here's Famines theorey, after 3 veiwings:

Plageus the Wise created Palpatine, and trained him in the ways. He made the mistake of teaching his Padawan EVERYTHING he knew, including how to create life. Palpatine kills his master, himself becoming the leading Sith Lord. Without a aprentice, he strikes out to get and obtain more power. While working with his new powers, he sense the midichlorians creating life, so he uses the dark side to help mold it, much like the red crystals made by the Sith. He knows he had the perfect aprentice, growing up somewhere, in a healthy area, away from the Jedi, and ripe for the eventual picking.

While in his day life, he's becoming a prominant figurehead for Naboo, when in seclusion he picks a new aprentice Darth Maul. Maul is to attempt to elimate the Jedi, and prevent them from finding the whereabouts of his future aprentice, Anakin Skywalker. The Jedi find him, and kill off Darth Maul. Anakin begins learning of the force, and becomes Obi-Wan Kenobi's padawan learner. He will be ripe for the picking. He's considered the Chosen One, and no one knows the better.

Palpatine picks a new aprentice, Lord Tryannus, a former Jedi, persuaded to the dark side. He studdied Dooku's reactions, learning abilities, all while creating a breeding ground (the Clone Wars) for Anakins agression. He befriends Anakin, and finds ways to get him to let his agression out, and open up his dark feelings. Palpatine has Dooku influence the Sand People tp capture Shmi, and have he suffer. The force opens up to her suffering, and Palpatine allows Anakin to see it throught the force. He kills them all. The door is open.

Anakin kills Count Dooku, and aligns everything he has forseen.
Eventually the time is right, and he alters the force to make Anakin envision Padme's death, somthing that Palpatine forsees, but Anakin couldn't have. He is manipulating him without even knowing. He suddenly bombards Anakin with power, unearened power, and uses the Council of Jedi as a tool to make him turn. Anakin learns of a way to save Padme, and falls to the dark side.


And so it goes...

Kevin
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Matt_Fury on May 21, 2005, 11:32 PM
I'm still sticking with Anakin is the chosen one, created by the Force and not Palpatine/Sidious.

If Sidious had such control over the force to the point of creating Anakin, then he could've also created him to be completely obedient...then Vader wouldn't have killed him in ROTJ.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: LandotheScoundrel on May 23, 2005, 11:18 AM
Well, there's also something to Palpatine being destroyed by his own creation.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Scott on May 23, 2005, 02:07 PM
I just don't buy it...I think it was the Force and not Palpatine...I can be proved all I want to from EU
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Taminar on May 23, 2005, 02:27 PM
My husband has speculated from the very beginning that Palpatine had something to do with Anakin's birth.  So, when the opera scene came about, it seemed obvious that yes, Palpy learned Plageis' secret and created Anakin.

I have seen a couple of pretty compelling arguments here that are variations on that, but I think if an early draft spelled it all out, I'm going to stick with the Palpatine created Anakin scenario.

I, too, had wondered if Palpatine arranged Shmi's death and influenced the visions of Padmé's death as well.

Maybe the reason George didn't make it all clear in his script is to give us all fodder on these forums! :)
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Nicklab on May 23, 2005, 02:46 PM
I think all of the theories have credence.  There is one more that has to be considered:  Palpatine is a liar.  The ways of the Sith are betrayal and treachery, and I have no doubt that lying is not beneath the Sith.

I think it's very possible that Palpatine came to know of Anakin's immaculate conception.  Anakin told him about the Tusken Raider massacre, so it's a fair bet that Anakin told him about the mystery of his birth as well.

Palpatine may have used this information to manipulate Anakin.  He referred to him as "son" on one ocassion and has acted as a father figure to Anakin ever since the end of The Phantom Menace.  Add in the story of Darth Plagueis and it's evident that Palpatine is playing Anakin on a number of fronts.  The truth could be that Anakin's conception was in fact the will of the force, but Palpatine may be leading Anakin to believe that the Sith had something to do with his birth.

I just count this as one of a few possibilities.  This is going to be big-time EU story fodder.  Hopefully if this story gets told, Lucas will have one of the more high profile EU authors address this.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Scott on May 23, 2005, 02:50 PM
Ooh, whoever wrote Darth Maul:Shadow Hunter would be a fine choice! :P

I hadn't thought of the liar aspect, good theory Nick
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Darth Kenobi on May 23, 2005, 02:54 PM
I think like some of you Palpatine created Anakin, one of the main reasons is because of Lucas method of using some of the same concepts from the OT in the PT.  As far as Anakin being the choosen it would still hold true even eith Palpatine creating him.  As Yoda says in Sith a" porpohcey misread maybe" (or something like that) so the choosen one may not nessceary need to be created in a rightous way and could of been infulence by the darkside.  In the end we see that Anakin is in fact the choosen one since he offs Palpatine in the end of ROTJ.  
Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Jesse James on May 23, 2005, 05:47 PM
I just don't buy it...I think it was the Force and not Palpatine...I can be proved all I want to from EU

I'm so far with you on this Scott.  Till I see otherwise, I'm guessing it's merely another attempt to pull puppet strings, and that Vader is likely the chosen one, the prophecy just isn't playing out as expected.  It ain't no fairy tale ending in this one.

Luke and Leia are the products of "balance" right now, as I see it.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Jedidz23 on May 23, 2005, 11:14 PM
Personally, I think Lucas left it ambiguous on purpose (This is mentioned in this weeks Entertainment Weekly by the way; check it out). I am hoping that, even though it's weird, Sidious took what Plagus (sp?) taught him, killed Plagus, and created Anakin. As ridiculous as that seems, it is much better than an Immaculate conception!   
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Theyrenotdolls on May 23, 2005, 11:27 PM
I like both ideas about palpy or plagy creating anakin.  I think it's more likely that nick is right.  In the new insider, ian mcdirmiad (sp?) says that palpy, in the opera scene is just throwing a bunch of things at anakin, to see which one he'll bite on. 
I also agree with above that said it is probably meant to be ambiguous....but the seeds of thought have been planted...in anakin and in us. 


Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: CorranHorn on May 24, 2005, 02:07 AM
some good theories all around, though I definitely like Nicklab's take on it, that Palpatine is just lying as part of his attempts to mainpulate Anakin.

While it does certainly fit the ways of the Sith, i think from an overall story pov, Palpy creating Anakin helps flesh things out more. It shows his evil machinations started way back when and it all culminates to the end of ROTS. just my view on it though, certainly some interesting other takes though.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Theyrenotdolls on May 24, 2005, 09:57 AM
i agree corr,  i actually like the plagus spin a bit more, but either way i dont think palpatine cares if anakin bites on that hook or one of the others....he clearly was prepared for this encounter. 
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Rob on May 24, 2005, 04:38 PM
I'm going with Palpy as the father.  I've been saying it since EI and they left it open enough that the implication is strongly there.

Very cool to get some of Palpatine's backstory - even if it's just him talking and it could all be B.S.  I just didn't read it as B.S.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: SilverZ on May 24, 2005, 05:24 PM
I certainly like the idea of Anakin's birth being a human, evil or otherwise, manipulated event over the idea of him being conceived by the "will" of the Force itself.

Regarding Palpatine's backstory, he finishes off the Sith Lord story with such evil glee that when he explains the Sith Lord's ironic death, he appears so visibly pleased that it's hard to not take the story as the truth. In my mind, I think it's not BS.

I think it is a wonderful moment in the movie for consisting of the two elements that Lucas is criticized for being so bad at - crafting compelling dialog and directing actors to deliver it.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Rob on May 24, 2005, 07:35 PM
I certainly like the idea of Anakin's birth being a human, evil or otherwise, manipulated event over the idea of him being conceived by the "will" of the Force itself.

The fact that such an unnatural birth would backfire on Palpatine and infact bring balance to the force after Vader kills the Emperor WOULD suggest that even the evil human event was the 'will' of the force itself.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Darth_Anton on May 24, 2005, 08:50 PM
I like the idea that the sith could have created Anakin. Sure he was created by the force, but someone useing the force to do it fuels a lot of ideas and possibilities. It's way more fun to entertain ideas like that rather than reduce the idea to simple leverage to seduce Anakin. Besides, why would Anakin care about that if the immaculate conception didn't have relevance to him?

Either way, it's a brilliant idea. Look at all the debate.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Jedidz23 on May 26, 2005, 01:42 AM
Regarding Palpatine's backstory, he finishes off the Sith Lord story with such evil glee that when he explains the Sith Lord's ironic death, he appears so visibly pleased that it's hard to not take the story as the truth. In my mind, I think it's not BS.

Good point.  I think that is the case; Sidious is so pleased with himself that he temporarily lets his guard down, and we see his true nature seep out.  Whether it was his manipulation, or whatever the case may be, I think he was involved.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Scott on May 26, 2005, 09:22 PM
George Lucas Himself in the latest Rolling Stone answers this very question...

He says it is meant to be ambiguous and there are three possible answers to Anakin's origins

Super Sith Lord Plagius
Midichlorians
The Force

He left it up to the fans to debate and decide and didn't have a real answer
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: CorranHorn on May 27, 2005, 12:22 AM
George Lucas Himself in the latest Rolling Stone answers this very question...

He says it is meant to be ambiguous and there are three possible answers to Anakin's origins

Super Sith Lord Plagius
Midichlorians
The Force

He left it up to the fans to debate and decide and didn't have a real answer

Ok cool that he definitely left it ambiguous, but I don't see why he didn't indicate Palpatine as a possibility. Palpatine is just as plausible, and in my opinion the best choice from a storytelling pov, as the 3 he suggested. And what is up with Super Sith Lord? Does that make Palpatine Super Duper Sith Lord for offing Plagius?  ;D
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Nicklab on May 27, 2005, 01:39 AM
Palpatine tells the newly dubbed Darth Vader "Only one has learned the secrets of eternal life.  Together we will unlock the secrets of the force..."

That seems to rule out Palpatine to me.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: CorranHorn on May 27, 2005, 02:09 AM
Palpatine tells the newly dubbed Darth Vader "Only one has learned the secrets of eternal life.  Together we will unlock the secrets of the force..."

That seems to rule out Palpatine to me.

the secrets to eternal life wouldn't necessarily be the same thing as the secrets to creating life. plus he never says that the one person wasn't him, he just says to Anakin we will unlock the secrets of the force. that doesn't necessarily mean he is not aware of what the secrets are, just that he will be helping Anakin to find them.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Darby on May 27, 2005, 05:24 AM
It's possible Plagueis created Anakin unwittingly, as a result of some Sith experimentation, and Palpatine only uncovered the truth later on, post TPM.  Or Plagueis knew exactly what he was doing and so did Palpy, and the Sith plot is much, much more complicated than one can fathom.

I personally think Palpy created him, and that was the one bit of truth he told Anakin, mainly because of what little weight he gave it compared to the rest.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Nicklab on May 28, 2005, 11:36 AM
Palpatine tells the newly dubbed Darth Vader "Only one has learned the secrets of eternal life.  Together we will unlock the secrets of the force..."

That seems to rule out Palpatine to me.

the secrets to eternal life wouldn't necessarily be the same thing as the secrets to creating life. plus he never says that the one person wasn't him, he just says to Anakin we will unlock the secrets of the force. that doesn't necessarily mean he is not aware of what the secrets are, just that he will be helping Anakin to find them.

It came across as if the powers are related.  And if only one Sith came to master these powers, it seems that the one would be responsible for the immaculate conception.  The story of Darth Plagueis and his powers only seems to be bait from Palpatine to lure Anakin Skywalker to the dark side.  For when Palpatine reveals that only one has achieved the powers of eternal life, it seems that he revealed his own deception to Darth Vader. 

If Palpatine were responsible for Anakin's birth, it would all seem far too convenient, IMO.  It definitely seems that this was intentionally left unresolved.  The origins of many mythological and religious figures have been in many cases ambiguous or mysterious.  There's the Christ analogy for one.  Then there are the numerous heroes of Greek mythology such as Hercules and Perseus who were supposedly children of the Gods, and the story of Rome's Romulus and Remus who were raised by wolves.  Lucas seems to be drawing heavily on these traditions to form some of Anakin's story.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Jedidz23 on May 28, 2005, 05:18 PM
If Palpatine were responsible for Anakin's birth, it would all seem far too convenient, IMO.  It definitely seems that this was intentionally left unresolved.  The origins of many mythological and religious figures have been in many cases ambiguous or mysterious.  There's the Christ analogy for one.  Then there are the numerous heroes of Greek mythology such as Hercules and Perseus who were supposedly children of the Gods, and the story of Rome's Romulus and Remus who were raised by wolves.  Lucas seems to be drawing heavily on these traditions to form some of Anakin's story.

Indeed.  This seems to be more of Joseph Campbell's influence on Lucas, which is a good thing, as far as mythology and narrative are concerned.  After seeing the film again last night, it almost seemed as if Palpatine looked at Anakin with pride (albeit briefly) as he revealed that Plagueis knew how to create life through the Force.  That lead me to believe that the Chancellor was proud of his creation (Anakin).  Obviously, this is just my theory, but my spider-sense tells me I might be onto something.   ;)
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Theyrenotdolls on May 29, 2005, 11:26 AM
i didnt get this till the third viewing, but i'd say that when palpy says "Only one has learned the secrets of eternal life"  It seemed to me that he was aware of and refering to QuiGon's  success in that endeavor.  After all, he doesnt say "Only one sith"

TND
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: LandotheScoundrel on May 30, 2005, 11:31 PM
Palpatine tells the newly dubbed Darth Vader "Only one has learned the secrets of eternal life.  Together we will unlock the secrets of the force..."

That seems to rule out Palpatine to me.

the secrets to eternal life wouldn't necessarily be the same thing as the secrets to creating life. plus he never says that the one person wasn't him, he just says to Anakin we will unlock the secrets of the force. that doesn't necessarily mean he is not aware of what the secrets are, just that he will be helping Anakin to find them.

It came across as if the powers are related.  And if only one Sith came to master these powers, it seems that the one would be responsible for the immaculate conception.  The story of Darth Plagueis and his powers only seems to be bait from Palpatine to lure Anakin Skywalker to the dark side.  For when Palpatine reveals that only one has achieved the powers of eternal life, it seems that he revealed his own deception to Darth Vader. 

If Palpatine were responsible for Anakin's birth, it would all seem far too convenient, IMO.  It definitely seems that this was intentionally left unresolved.  The origins of many mythological and religious figures have been in many cases ambiguous or mysterious.  There's the Christ analogy for one.  Then there are the numerous heroes of Greek mythology such as Hercules and Perseus who were supposedly children of the Gods, and the story of Rome's Romulus and Remus who were raised by wolves.  Lucas seems to be drawing heavily on these traditions to form some of Anakin's story.

Good points. The virgin birth did not originate with Christ, its an idea taken from many older religions. The theme appears numerous times in Greek mythology, among others. I'm glad that it was included in Star Wars, and I'm glad it wasn't resolved. Its nice to have some things that we can debate for years to come.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Scott on May 30, 2005, 11:34 PM
Here is the quotes from Lucas on said subject and Ed's point about Christ is addressed as well :-*:

Anakin has no father. Do Christ overtones-
Oh, it's not just Christ. Christ is one of a long, long line of heroes who don't have fathers. There's a long tradition of mythological heroes.

Can you name a few others?
There are a lot of Greek gods who came down [and impregnated mortal women], and so the heroes don't have fathers.  Whether its Hindu, Chinese or Middle Eastern, all the mythological heroes didn't have fathers.  The fathers were the gods.

Now in this particular case, the gods happen to be a life form that allows cells to divide. So it's a metaphorL that which brings life.  I don't want to get too controversial about this - some people believe it happened in other ways, over seven days, but if you listen to biology, there's another theory, which begins with an e. If you study microbiology, you will come to the realization that this alien life-form, which has completely different DNA, helped create life on earth and within the galaxy. But every cell has one of these life-forms in it.  It's a simplified version of relationships - that symbiotic being goes through everything.  That's why Han Solo joins the Rebellion, that's why Luke saves his Father.  In Star Wars land, all these relationships are necessary to bring forth a greater good - and evil.

Now, there's a hint in the movie that there was a Sith Lord who had the power to create life.  But it's left unsaid: Is Anakina product of a Super-Sith who influenced the midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the midichlorians?  It's left up to the audience to decide.  How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: LandotheScoundrel on May 31, 2005, 11:05 AM
I like the themes of self-fullfilling prophecy in Star Wars. Anakin is afraid to lose Padme, so he seeks out more power with which to save her. The tragedy of this, is that his power in the end, is what is responsible for her death.

There are alot of these self-fullfilling prophecies in Greek mythology (as with other mythologies, but I'm most familiar with Greek, so that's where I'll draw from). The hero Perseus (the product of a virgin birth, by the way), was prophecised to kill his father, King Acrisius. Therefore, Acrisius placed the infant Perseus and his mother into a chest and set them adrift at sea. Perseus grows up on an island, completely unaware of his background and goes on adventures (slaying Medusa, etc). Many years later he returns to Acrisius' kingdom, where he fulfills the prophecy by accidentally killed the king while throwing the discus.

As far as Anakin's conception is concerned, it could be that Plagueis was trying to create a perfect weapon for the Sith because of the prophecy of the Chosen One who would destroy the Sith. Darth Plagueis then unwittingly created that which he was trying to stop. There is also the idea that the Sith believe the balance of the force will be in their favor, while the jedi believe the opposite. Was the prophecy a general prophecy of the force, or was it jedi only?
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Jedidz23 on June 1, 2005, 12:51 AM
I like the themes of self-fullfilling prophecy in Star Wars...

As far as Anakin's conception is concerned, it could be that Plagueis was trying to create a perfect weapon for the Sith because of the prophecy of the Chosen One who would destroy the Sith. Darth Plagueis then unwittingly created that which he was trying to stop.

I really like the self-fullfilling prophecy idea.  You must have an English degree.   :)
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: LandotheScoundrel on June 1, 2005, 10:11 AM
I like the themes of self-fullfilling prophecy in Star Wars...

As far as Anakin's conception is concerned, it could be that Plagueis was trying to create a perfect weapon for the Sith because of the prophecy of the Chosen One who would destroy the Sith. Darth Plagueis then unwittingly created that which he was trying to stop.

I really like the self-fullfilling prophecy idea.  You must have an English degree.   :)

Nope, Bachelor of Art (Graphic Design).  ;D
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Jedidz23 on June 2, 2005, 12:54 AM
Ah, nicely done (English myself)!  :)
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: LandotheScoundrel on June 2, 2005, 10:29 AM
Ah, nicely done (English myself)!  :)

Well, I went to a liberal arts university, and graduated from the honors program. It included a lot of classical studies, modern condition, etc.

My degree happens to be for graphic design, but its also an honors degree.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Jedidz23 on June 3, 2005, 01:18 AM
Cool.  Your posts are intelligent, so I figured it was something like that.   :)

I am 5 classes away from my second Bachellor's in English Education myself.  I'm thinking a few units about Star Wars here and there for my future classes might prove beneficial.   ;)
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Herbert_Ackermans on June 3, 2005, 06:53 AM
Funny, you talk about self-fulfilling prophecies, but all these are not of that kind.

A self fullfilling prophecy is like saying when it rains, I prophecise we shall become wet or something like that.

The fact Anakin, in his quest to find the power to save Padmé, becomes the one who actually kills Padmé is not a SFP. It's mostly a tragic aspect.

If Plagueis is indeed responsible for Anakin's birth, or Sidious is, the fact that, although Anakin established the Sith's rule and purge of the Jedi, he also is the single factor in destroying the Sith, as prophecised, is not a self-fulfilling prophecy.

SFP's have that "Yeah well duh..." aspect. The Jedi prophecy, Anakin's destiny, both are not.

So despite all those degrees, all barking up the wrong tree.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Jedidz23 on June 3, 2005, 10:19 AM
It is how you defined it, but it is also when you become that which you most fear.  I have also taken some psychology classes dude.   ;)  Anakin becomes what he most fears, someone who will take away everything that he loves.  That is the tragic element of his character, and the self-fulfilling prophecy is fuel for the proverbial fire.  SFP's do not necessarily have a "Duh" aspect.  When you worry about something, and it comes true, that is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  You essentially will something to fruition, and allow yourself to go down the path you most fear.

If Plagueis is indeed responsible for Anakin's birth, or Sidious is, the fact that, although Anakin established the Sith's rule and purge of the Jedi, he also is the single factor in destroying the Sith, as prophecised, is not a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yes, that is correct.  This aspect is not a self-fulfilling prophecy, it is just part of the character arc.

Good discussion.   ;D
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: LandotheScoundrel on June 3, 2005, 01:18 PM
Funny, you talk about self-fulfilling prophecies, but all these are not of that kind.

A self fullfilling prophecy is like saying when it rains, I prophecise we shall become wet or something like that.

The fact Anakin, in his quest to find the power to save Padmé, becomes the one who actually kills Padmé is not a SFP. It's mostly a tragic aspect.

If Plagueis is indeed responsible for Anakin's birth, or Sidious is, the fact that, although Anakin established the Sith's rule and purge of the Jedi, he also is the single factor in destroying the Sith, as prophecised, is not a self-fulfilling prophecy.

SFP's have that "Yeah well duh..." aspect. The Jedi prophecy, Anakin's destiny, both are not.

So despite all those degrees, all barking up the wrong tree.

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy) is what I was going off of.

"A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that, in being made, actually causes itself to become true."

I guess it doesn't adequately describe what we're talking about though. I agree, good discussion! When I've got a little more time, I'll contribute more.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: MommySkywalker on June 8, 2005, 12:52 AM
So what do you think? Who is Anakin's "father", is it Palpatine or Plagus? Or is it neither and just one of those mysteries we will never know, like the name of Yoda's species.
=================

While Lucas maintains that Anakin's conception parallels Biblical lore, he also says that the real story to Anakin's conception is ultimately left up to the audience.  (Rolling Stone interview)  "I" choose to believe that it was a miraculous conception, and that Anakin could've ended up on either side -- that his choices made him into what he became, not some pre-ordained destiny.  But, that's just my opinion!

Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: LandotheScoundrel on June 8, 2005, 10:49 AM
So what do you think? Who is Anakin's "father", is it Palpatine or Plagus? Or is it neither and just one of those mysteries we will never know, like the name of Yoda's species.
=================

While Lucas maintains that Anakin's conception parallels Biblical lore, he also says that the real story to Anakin's conception is ultimately left up to the audience.  (Rolling Stone interview)  "I" choose to believe that it was a miraculous conception, and that Anakin could've ended up on either side -- that his choices made him into what he became, not some pre-ordained destiny.  But, that's just my opinion!

Lucas admits to referencing bibilical lore as well as mythology from other cultures, but his intent with the virgin birth here wasn't to parallel the bible. The virgin birth is a concept that Christianity took from older religions. Lucas has studied many world religions, and used references to them in Star Wars.
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: Scott on June 8, 2005, 10:53 AM
I posted the Rolling Stone stuff on page 3 (http://www.jedidefender.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=7875.msg129634#msg129634) if you are interested, I'm on The Force bandwagon myself
Title: Re: Anakin's Immaculate Conception, Not So Holy?
Post by: MommySkywalker on June 8, 2005, 03:00 PM
I posted the Rolling Stone stuff on page 3 if you are interested, I'm on The Force bandwagon myself
==================

I saw your Rolling Stone post not long after I posted about same -- darn me for not reading ahead!!  ;0)