JediDefender.com Forums
Multimedia => The Original Trilogy => Topic started by: Nicklab on April 15, 2016, 02:43 PM
-
Veteran Star Wars actor Peter Mayhew, the man behind Chewbacca, has tweeted some pages from the original script for Star Wars. Those pages depict a very different version (https://twitter.com/TheWookieeRoars/status/720117645673119744) of Obi-Wan Kenobi's confrontation with Darth Vader on the Death Star. It's very difficult to imagine Obi-Wan escaping from his duel with Vader, and escaping aboard the Millennium Falcon. His survival would have reshaped much of the saga without him becoming one with The Force, and he likely would have served in the capacity of Luke's Jedi Master in TESB had the script not been changed to what we saw in ANH.
-
It's not difficult to imagine after the prequels. They can go that route in the remake.
Kenobi realizes he lacks the ability to train Luke to his true potential and fears him falling to the dark side, so off to Dagobah they go or just Luke alone. So what does Kenobi do the rest of ESB...is he with the Rebel fleet or in the Falcon? If he's at Cloud City that gets another Vader/Kenobi reunion. So maybe he's not there.
ROTJ, Luke confronts Obi-Wan about his dad. So no Yoda scene? What does he do the rest of the movie. Hmmm....
-
You have to look at that through the lense of:
-At the time, Darth Vader was not Luke's father.
-There was no Yoda.
Both of those concepts were created when they were writing Empire Strikes Back.
-
Lucasfilm's Pablo Hidalgo caught wind of the Peter Mayhew tweet and expanded upon the issue. Obi-Wan's survival was something that was in the early drafts, but left a number of things hanging. It had the effect of diminishing the power of both the Empire as well as Darth Vader. Check out his tweet here which shows some excerpts from the J.W. Rinzler book "Making Star Wars":
https://twitter.com/pablohidalgo/status/721241149915013126
-
Obi-Wan not dying in original versions of the Star Wars script is not new news.
I recall at least reading it here http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Annotated-Screenplays/dp/0345409817 (http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Annotated-Screenplays/dp/0345409817) nearly 20 years ago...and something tells me it wasn't new information even then.
Funny to read the replying tweets to Mayhew's "shocking" revelation though.
Boy am I a bitter old man.
-
I thought I was going crazy when I read this "news" too as I thought this was fairly well known for years.
-
I'd thought I'd heard for years that Guinness wanted Kenobi killed off. Is that part true? He seemed to think Star Wars was silly rubbish even while making it.
But then he kept cashing in and appeared a ghost anyway.
-
I still love the fact that Alec Guinness got 2.25% of the Star Wars profits and ended up getting $50-75 million for something he thought was rubbish. Far more than Harrison Ford's $35 million take for E7.
-
Obi-Wan not dying in original versions of the Star Wars script is not new news.
I recall at least reading it here http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Annotated-Screenplays/dp/0345409817 (http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-The-Annotated-Screenplays/dp/0345409817) nearly 20 years ago...and something tells me it wasn't new information even then.
Funny to read the replying tweets to Mayhew's "shocking" revelation though.
Boy am I a bitter old man.
I think it's a cool bit of trivia. And frankly, had things happened as they were originally written, would we really consider Darth Vader to be anywhere near as threatening of a villain had he just let Obi-Wan escape? Clearly this was an instance where the re-write improved the story dramatically. And seeing how that took shape is an interesting glimpse into how the creative process evolves through editing the script.
-
I just like the fact that Star Wars (movies) is okay with killing key characters, both good and bad. I would find it pretty annoying if there were lots of lightsaber battles and everyone just walked away to fight another day. That is my probably why I've never gotten in to the super hero movies as they're all essentially immortal.
If only the comics, and the Clone Wars and Rebels cartoons would follow this rule. Maul is a cool character, but he should have stayed dead on Naboo.
-
I think it's a cool bit of trivia. And frankly, had things happened as they were originally written, would we really consider Darth Vader to be anywhere near as threatening of a villain had he just let Obi-Wan escape? Clearly this was an instance where the re-write improved the story dramatically.
I'd play devil's advocate and really sink my teeth into the scene, here...because I think it could have used another rewrite if the point was to add menace to Darth Vader and the whole Death Star encounter as Lucas explained it.
Vader doesn't win the duel. Ben stands there in a non-defensive position while Vader swings his lightsaber to cut him down. But, before he connects, Ben Kenobi "disappears." Then we hear Ben's disembodied voice instructing Luke to run 2 seconds later. It is clear to the audience Ben didn't die in the commonly understood sense.
The last we see of Vader during the escape he is stomping on Ben's empty clothes cluelessly. He clearly has no idea what is going on, and certainly doesn't feel victorious. He looks like a chump.
Ben sacrifices his corporeal body in a tactic to keep Vader and the stormtroopers occupied while the kids escape. More weight could have been given to his death had it been written so he was trying to win the duel and had been overwhelmed by the stormtroopers joining the fight. But that's not what happened. He pulled a Jedi magic trick that never even looked like he got cut down (except to Luke, who grieves for him on the Falcon for a couple seconds before the TIE battle.)
It is a better story point than Ben making it back to the Falcon as if he had just been toying with Vader. It does take care of his uselessness for the rest of the movie (and led to the introduction of Yoda in ESB, which was a great character and great concept in and of itself.) But I can't honestly say I ever felt Vader won the duel.
-
Marvel showed what really happened. (I remember seeing this as a kid, finding it strange...)
(http://media.comicbook.com/uploads1/2014/08/star-wars-4-09-104700.jpg)
-
I think it's a cool bit of trivia. And frankly, had things happened as they were originally written, would we really consider Darth Vader to be anywhere near as threatening of a villain had he just let Obi-Wan escape? Clearly this was an instance where the re-write improved the story dramatically.
I'd play devil's advocate and really sink my teeth into the scene, here...because I think it could have used another rewrite if the point was to add menace to Darth Vader and the whole Death Star encounter as Lucas explained it.
Vader doesn't win the duel. Ben stands there in a non-defensive position while Vader swings his lightsaber to cut him down. But, before he connects, Ben Kenobi "disappears." Then we hear Ben's disembodied voice instructing Luke to run 2 seconds later. It is clear to the audience Ben didn't die in the commonly understood sense.
The last we see of Vader during the escape he is stomping on Ben's empty clothes cluelessly. He clearly has no idea what is going on, and certainly doesn't feel victorious. He looks like a chump.
Ben sacrifices his corporeal body in a tactic to keep Vader and the stormtroopers occupied while the kids escape. More weight could have been given to his death had it been written so he was trying to win the duel and had been overwhelmed by the stormtroopers joining the fight. But that's not what happened. He pulled a Jedi magic trick that never even looked like he got cut down (except to Luke, who grieves for him on the Falcon for a couple seconds before the TIE battle.)
It is a better story point than Ben making it back to the Falcon as if he had just been toying with Vader. It does take care of his uselessness for the rest of the movie (and led to the introduction of Yoda in ESB, which was a great character and great concept in and of itself.) But I can't honestly say I ever felt Vader won the duel.
The way you've analyzed this is very much from a standpoint of hindsight. But put yourself in that theater seeing the film for the first time. Because the scene plays out quite differently when you look at it from the standpoint of a fresh viewer who doesn't know that Obi-Wan has been studying the Force, and how to maintain his identity.
As for the duel? Ben is having a hard time holding his own. Both he and Vader are not in top dueling form, and Ben has largely been on the defensive while Vader has been the aggressor. The only indication we have that the duel is taking a toll on Vader is that his rate of breathing has increased. Then he sees Luke and the others trying to escape. He knows that giving himself up and the distraction that may cause Vader might be the only way to ensure that Luke and Leia can escape.
When Vader strikes Ben down? To the audience it comes across as a cold-blooded murder. Ben stands there defenseless, having given himself up. It makes Vader seem that much more sinister to the audience to have killed an opponent who has effectively surrendered. While there's clearly more to the story, we're talking about audience perception in the moment. We don't know until much later that Vader played into Obi-Wan's hands, and that Obi-Wan had been preparing himself for a moment like that for nearly 20 years.
-
I never had the impression that Ben was surrendering to Vader. Doesn't he look over at Luke, then smirk at Vader, then lift his lightsaber straight up and close his eyes? I think it is clear Ben made a sacrifice vs. Vader "murdering" a defenseless old man.
-
It's both a sacrifice AND a murder.
...from a certain point of view.
-
Not really, if the Empire is the legitimate government and being a Jedi is treasonous and are to be killed on sight, then Vader was justified in the execution of a war criminal.
-
I'll continue to play along in devil's advocate role. To be perfectly clear though, I am not arguing with you at all, Nicklab. Having fun geeking out over Star Wars trivia and analyzing these movies we like enough to be talking about 40 years after the fact. I appreciate the conversation!
The way you've analyzed this is very much from a standpoint of hindsight. But put yourself in that theater seeing the film for the first time. Because the scene plays out quite differently when you look at it from the standpoint of a fresh viewer who doesn't know that Obi-Wan has been studying the Force, and how to maintain his identity.
Except for the fact that it is Ben's disembodied voice that Luke reacts to when giving up his "revenge shooting" of the Stormtroopers (and I assume, attempting to hit Vader.) Once the viewer hears Ben's ghost voice, they know Ben isn't "dead." When he comes back during the Trench Run, it's nowhere near as powerful as when Han Solo does. Because we already know he's there, he even told us he would be just before he disappeared: "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine." So I don't think its hindsight helped along by the shoe-horned explanation from ROTS. To me even at four years old when I first saw it, there was never that thought that Ben had been killed by Vader.
As for the duel? Ben is having a hard time holding his own. Both he and Vader are not in top dueling form, and Ben has largely been on the defensive while Vader has been the aggressor. The only indication we have that the duel is taking a toll on Vader is that his rate of breathing has increased. Then he sees Luke and the others trying to escape. He knows that giving himself up and the distraction that may cause Vader might be the only way to ensure that Luke and Leia can escape.
Agree on all points here. He is losing the duel in that he never has the advantage (no high ground on the Death Star...) He turns the duel into a distraction to get the kids out of the Death Star.
I do think there's the potential to make it a heroic sacrifice, Ben redoubling his efforts to actually finish Vader while knowing full well he may be struck down in the bargain, as opposed to how it plays out now (which is essentially Ben pulling out a large pair of spectacles and saying "Look Darth, bet you wouldn't hit a guy with glasses, wouldja?")
When Vader strikes Ben down? To the audience it comes across as a cold-blooded murder. Ben stands there defenseless, having given himself up. It makes Vader seem that much more sinister to the audience to have killed an opponent who has effectively surrendered. While there's clearly more to the story, we're talking about audience perception in the moment. We don't know until much later that Vader played into Obi-Wan's hands, and that Obi-Wan had been preparing himself for a moment like that for nearly 20 years.
Again, this is not done to the effect they wanted. First off, Vader's first on screen action is the brutal strangulation murder of a prisoner who is absolutely no threat to him. Vader is established right away as the most sinister, remorseless, unscrupulous villain we might ever meet. That's why we **** a brick when Ben turns the corner to the hangar and sees Vader looming there. We know the guy is going to pull no punches, he's been yammering to Tarkin for the last half hour how much he wants to kill Kenobi. And by God we know he's got it in him to do it.
If they wanted Vader to come across more threatening because of Ben's sacrifice, then instead of him poking around to see where Ben Kenobi went, he should have crossed his arms and sneered something like "Foolish old man!" or something to that effect. His reaction to the duel's end is that he has been tricked. He does not appear satisfied, and I think that actually lessens his villainy.