JediDefender.com Forums
Multimedia => The Original Trilogy => Topic started by: Hemish on April 10, 2005, 10:50 PM
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Ok so i was thinking about this the other day and had a heated debate with a friend over it as well.
Vader does nothing to redeem himself
He takes out his master in true Sith fashion
As they all do , when the time is right the kill their masters.
Just because he did it while the emperors attention was on Luke is a moot point, infact that is a true sith moment , takeing out his master when he least expects it.
My other thought was
Spoiler for ep3..
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No QuiGon is supposed to teach Yoda and Yoda teaches Obiwan how to merge with the force, who taught this to Anakin??How can this be????
The last thing i really want to know after reading the ep3 graphic novel was the look on Vaders fae when he was fighting Kenobi after the way he goes in the lava pit i gots to know!!!
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Damn, I thought this was a thread about GNT... :P
Well, hopefully we don't have too heated a debate here too Hemish, but I guess you just have to look at it as him choosing to protect his son instead. That's the context that I've alwasy viewed that particular scene in. If it was just a Sith style killing, he'd have wanted to become the #1 Sith, with Luke as his sidekick apprentice. That may have been his attitude in ESB, but I think that in ROTJ as he was watching his son get tortured by Sidious, his positive midichlorians and the paternal instinct just finally kicked in. ;)
I haven't watched Jedi in a while, but it's really going to feel quite different the next time I do, after all the context that's been added from the prequels, and especially ROTS. Though I'm not the biggest fans of the prequels so far, they really do add to the overall arc of the story, and make some of the OT moments that much more profound (like Obi's death in ANH).
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I think that in ROTJ he does redeem himself simply because he doesn't kill the Emperor/Sidious to take the #1 Sith spot, he kills him to save his son, at the cost of his own life.
Before the climax in the Emperor's throne room on the DS2, there is that scene between Vader and Luke on Endor - this is the scene that plants the seed for Vader finally breaking free from the complete hold on him the Dark Side has had. I have always felt that there is some really great emotion in those lines spoken by Vader - "Obi-Wan once thought as you do...", "It is too late for me, son..." - both poignant lines that are made even more so by things we have seen (or will soon see) in the PT.
Also, remember - Vader turns out to be a disappointment to Sidious. Vader is more machine than man and can never truly yield some of the Dark Side's more potent abilities - for example Force Lightning - because his life relies on machines, Vader can not wield it - this too brings more evidence to the fact that Vader kills Sidious out of redemption instead of a Sith master/apprentice killing - Vader knew that if he got within two feet of that Sith lightning all of his electrical systems would be shorted out and he would be dead. So his choice was (a) continue to serve his master or (b) destroy his master who has orchestrated so much pain to himself, his family and the galaxy...
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I've always thought those several lines on Endor were the beginning of the turning point as well, Peter.
Vader is more machine than man and can never truly yield some of the Dark Side's more potent abilities - for example Force Lightning - because his life relies on machines, Vader can not wield it...
Interesting. I'd never heard that, and until now, it had never really dawned on me that Vader doesn't/can't wield the lightning. Hmm... So was that something you gathered through some reference or EU book, Peter? Or just your own hypothesis there...?
Same question on him being a "disappointment" to the Emperor... Never heard or suspect that either. Just curious where that idea came from, as that would certainly present an interesting twist to things, and their relationship in the OT, which I'd certainly never considered before...
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I myself wonder wether or not Vader can use Lightning. He can use the Force on his hands, as we see in TESB where he stopped the laserblasts from Han.
So, to me, that means that he can still use the Force with his hands, them being bionical or not.
Yoda said:"The Force is everywhere."
But ever since TPM, there is this belief that "The Force is only there in your own body". I'm not convinced that is true.
The thing is, we don't see Vader do much Force-things. He chokes a few people, he walked to that broken window in Cloud City that sucked Luke out.
Beyond that, in the movies, nothing. I consider wielding a lightsabre not part of using the Force. Perhaps being able to foresee your opponent's moves.
The fact Vader could repel the shots from Han indicates that his hands can withstand high intensity rays, I think.
Also, what is Sith Lightning? I think it starts at the tip of your fingers, and isn't generated inside your arms, because then too, Sidious would buy it using it, as would any Sith.
Further, I think Vader died not from the Lightning bombardment alone, but he was exhausted as well.
Once Luke cut his hand, we hear Vader breathing very, very difficult. He has lots of trouble getting to his feet, and kind of staggers over to the Emperor. When he gets next to him, you can see him panting, his whole body is convulsing while trying to get the air in.
Lifting the Emperor, getting the hail of lightning, might have wrecked his body beyond recovery.
But, contrary to popular belief, his breathing aparatus still works, you can hear it.
As Luke lifts Vader's back up, you can hear that the breathing gets more comfortable, returning to alsmost normal.
Then, cut to the shuttle bay.
Vader is walking, assisted by Luke, and then simply breaks down to his feet out of sheer exhaustion. If his bionical gear would've been so damaged, including his artificial lungs, Vader would never have made it that far. Remember, the Emperor's throne room is in that tower we see Tie-Interceptors fly past. The hangar bays are in either the equatorial trench, or the 2 others north and south of that.
Even the shortest route is still quite a distance.
Vader made it to "a" hangar, not necessarily the same he arrived in at the start of ROTJ, but still, he went a long way.
All that combined, the pain from the lightning, being exhausted by the duel and the long walk to the hangar, that I belief is what killed Vader.
So, we now have to wonder why Anakin didn't die after getting his limbs cut and falling into a volcano and resting next to a lava-stream, causing him to almost fully burst into flames.
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Interesting. I'd never heard that, and until now, it had never really dawned on me that Vader doesn't/can't wield the lightning. Hmm... So was that something you gathered through some reference or EU book, Peter? Or just your own hypothesis there...?
Same question on him being a "disappointment" to the Emperor... Never heard or suspect that either. Just curious where that idea came from, as that would certainly present an interesting twist to things, and their relationship in the OT, which I'd certainly never considered before...
Both are mentioned in the ROTS Visual Dictionary.
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Ah, that explains it then. I haven't picked that book up quite yet. Thanks Mikey!
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Is the VD cannon or EU?
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EU
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So, in what amount does it hold water then compared to the movies?
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I agree with Herbert_Ackermans. Vader should be able to use lightning. The PT did try to trash that theory, however. ???
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So, in what amount does it hold water then compared to the movies?
I think it's all up to each individual's own taste really. Everyone has their own perceptions of what's EU and canon. I generally think of the movies as the only real canon material, but then when you get into officially licensed and created stuff like SOTE and CW, I'd say it very close to being canon, though still technically not (IMO). Then, the official reference types of books like the VD and whatnot are pretty close too... But then you get into the novels and comics and stuff, where I'd say it's all pretty much EU, for you to take as you wish.
But it's always fun to be able to mentally add a little backstory from the various alternative SW sources into the movies as you're viewing them, just to broaden the universe a little, and make the characters and plots deeper and more interesting than just what we may see on film.
I guess since we've seen Dooku and Sidious bust some ass with the lightning, that I'm just assuming Vader and Maul prefer to get down and dirty with the ass whipping the good old fashioned way... Works for me! 8)
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I agree that the Sith lightning probably damaged Vader's systems beyond repair, but I think the larger issue is that Vader was no longer channelling the dark side to artificially prolong his life. That's the impression I've always had.
I mean, if there was a medical station nearby, and Vader was still deeply rooted in the dark side, he could probably have been repaired or given new life support systems. The fact that he was no longer keeping himself alive (essentially a walking hate-filled corpse) is what—I believe—truly led to his demise.
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I'm all for canon over EU mostly, but I think the VD just interprets canon (the films) differently... That's where things get fuzzy. I think canon's indisputeable in instances of, say, the scale of an SSD being larger than the "EU" established 11km or whatever it is... That's canon because there's film evidence that can prove that and no real reason to dispute it...
The whole Vader/Force Lightning thing... Sounds like a Lucas retread on some level, but I can also bite that it's just another person's opinion of how the force works...
I'm not sure where I stand on Vader's ability (or lack thereof) in using the force lightning... I just haven't thought of it too much. I see credence to both arguments. Lucas has changed the Force from the classic films to the prequals though. I know my view of it was a little shattered after midichlorians, haha.
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I came up with a theory pre EpII that the fact that Vader loses so many appendeges also reduces his midichlorians and as such, he is less powerful in the Force. Lucas hints at the reduction in his powers in the Making of books (and I think in the OT DVD's) but its not played out on screen. This is why Palpatine is so interested in Luke.
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Interesting. I'd never heard that, and until now, it had never really dawned on me that Vader doesn't/can't wield the lightning. Hmm... So was that something you gathered through some reference or EU book, Peter? Or just your own hypothesis there...?
Both are mentioned in the ROTS Visual Dictionary.
I took a gander at the ROTS Visual Dictionary today when I was wandering around Borders, and it definitely very specifically addresses this issue, by saying:
Since Vader has two artificial arms, he can neither wield Sith lightning, nor endure it. So there ya' go. Of course, the source is rather EU, but still, I think that probably settles that particular issue...
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It's a good enough answer to suit me for the most part, but the VD (heh) is definitely EU as well... Though, Lucas's collaboration on any given piece of material can easily vary. I'm not sure if this is from the horse's mouth or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.
Then again, if it ain't on-screen, it ain't "canon"... So I dunno. My beef is that he still can force pull items to him, choke people, etc... He has offensive and defensive capabilities with the force but no lightning? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me I guess... A hand can produce lightning, but a nub can't? Or a nub with metal covering it? I dunno, but that seems weird in and of itself.
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So there ya' go. Of course, the source is rather EU, but still, I think that probably settles that particular issue...
Nah the VD is as much cannon as the movies in my opinion. There's no way it's EU because it coincides too much with the films. I have all 4 VD's and they are like my SW bibles. Novels, comics, etc... that's EU, but these books explain what George just couldn't right into the script. That's just my opinion.
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I think Palpy is interested in Luke they way he was interested in Anakin over Dooku, he wanted the younger, more powerful apprentice. One thing that bothers me about the OT now is how Obi Wan and Yoda didn't warn Luke about the Force Lightening. Yoda felt Palpy's lightning firsthand, so he would have to know that if Luke made Palpy mad he could get fried. Obi Wan and Yoda both showed that they could block Dooku's lightning, so why not give Luke a quick course on how to keep from getting cooked? Obi Wan must have left some books for Luke in his home, how else would Luke have built his saber? Why couldn't Obi Wan have left a force lightning book in a place Luke would find it? Why couldn't Yoda have mentioned something about it when Luke came back to Dagobah? I know we wouldn't have had Vader's redemption in the way we got it, but it now looks like Obi Wan and Yoda missed something important in their training of Luke.