JediDefender.com Forums
Collectibles => Past Hasbro 3.75" Lines => Revenge of the Sith => Topic started by: DoctorPadawan on May 16, 2005, 10:19 AM
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I wanted to make a much more inflammatory subject line, but I figured I would hold back. ;D
Anyway, while I was at the local retailers earlier this morning, it occurred to me that the people Hasbro is so adamant about claiming to be their bread and butter, the children, are going to more than likely be sorely disappointed if (for some bizarre reason) they want some action figures this weekend other than the usual suspects. I mean, yes, there are gobs of Obi-Wans and Anakins so they can reenact that duel, and they can still get most of the main characters that they remember (Threepio, R2, Chewbacca, Yoda), but when it comes to exciting secondary characters and/or main bad guys, they're literally going to be SOL.
At every store I went to, I saw the same figures staring back at me in abundance. In Collection 1, there was an ample supply of Obi-Wan (1 and 27), Anakin (2 and 28), Yoda (3 and 26), the SBD, Chewbacca, R2-D2, Grievous' Bodyguard, Mace Windu, Tarfful, Clone Pilots, and Palpatine (35).
In Collection 2, there was an abundance of 13-24 (minus any Royal Guards with a massive amount of Mon Mothmas and Bail Organas), and 29-32, with a few Mas Ameddas and VMDs here and there amongst them.
So, out of those figures that I saw in abundance, these were the ones that (believe it or not) were almost totally missing (they may have been 1 or 2 at one store, but none at others), and once you see them, you'll see my complaint.
-#6 Clone Trooper (there were none of these anywhere)
-#9 Grievous (this one surprised me because there were so many about three weeks ago and they just dried up)
-#11 Vader (again, none anywhere)
-#12 Palpatine (ditto)
-#23 Royal Guard (either version)
-#33 Clone Commander (I saw a few at one store)
-#36 Grievous (surprisingly, since it sucks)
-#38 AT-TE Gunner (no surprise)
-#39 Polis Massan (exception to the rule)
I'm not even factoring in the complete absence of the #41 Clone which is starting to piss me off, personally, but this post isn't about me.
So, a kid goes and sees ROTS at some point after Thursday and decides that he wants to go get some figures. Mom says he can have some and he wants Vader. Sorry kid, you're out of luck. They have Yoda with a lightsaber but no Emperor with one (35 doesn't count since he's not cloaked), so again, sorry kid, Yoda's fighting air. Clone Army? Don't make me laugh! Didn't you hear that they're Ebay Exclusives? The main bad guy? Well, you've only got 10 bucks to spend, so you could buy that one with the cup or that one with the grappling hook, but then you can't afford to buy another figure to fight him.
But hey, you can reenact all the political wrangling you want, or the arguments (which all sarcasm aside, are still one of my favorite character quirks in the films) between Threepio and Artoo can be endlessly rerun in your living room. Oh, you found some Clone Pilots and Mom said she would get you an ARC-170 or Gunship for your birthday? Oops, too bad! You can't find those at retail either!
Okay, all joking will cease at this point and I'm going to try to maintain an air of professionalism. Hasbro's case assortments for this movie are horrible. They have done a poor job of gauging demand for figures and staying up to date on what is selling and what isn't. They are shipping too many of figures that have a limited appeal and too few of figures that a lot of people want. Bail Organa is an incredibly cool figure, and I think a lot of people are missing out by not having him, but I don't see a reason to ship him after the first case assortment of Collection 2.
Hasbro's defense, over the years, refers to the fact that the case assortments are made months in advance and can't be changed at the drop of a hat. Well, the case assortments coming later this year are going to be including figures (like the first and second Obi-Wans, Anakins, and Yodas) that are in a massive glut at retail already, so you would think that 6 months is enough lead time to correct this.
In 1999, Hasbro released a solid case of Darth Maul to try and decrease the hysteria surrounding that figure. The figure eventually pegwarmed because of this, but it was a single character. Hasbro could very easily crank out a case assortment of 12 Clones (#41 preferably) or a case assortment with 4 of those and 4 #6 Clones and 4 Commanders, but they won't, because doing so would be admitting that their ratios are horrible.
Back in the POTJ days, Hasbro seemed to have things figured out. The case assortments seemed to be done closer to release, and very few cases had older figures reshipped. If there was demand for a figure, it went back out there, but for the most part, the reshipped figures were ones that would sell (like Vader or Scout Troopers) instead of ones that wouldn't sell (Boss Nass, Porkins, or Aurra Sing). Then, with AOTC, they went right back to what almost killed the line in 1998 when everyone was selling figures for 2 dollars.
Now they're doing it again, and even their own website can't keep up with demand. I keep hoping that they will notice the lack of sales on some figures versus others, but if that happens, I'll eat my shoe. Hasbro is like that annoying guy at the bookstore who will not admit they are wrong because it would make them appear (or so they believe) weak. I was taught that when you make a mistake, you try to correct it, you admit when you're wrong, as humility is a virtue. It is not weakness; they only people they are hurting in the long run are themselves.
So, when you see a kid in the aisles this weekend who can't find Darth Vader because Hasbro didn't ship enough, or who wants a Clone Trooper to shoot his Jedi in the back (damn that's morbid) but can't find it because of the combined efforts of Hasbro and Ebay, just look at him and tell him, "Well, kid, it sucks to be you, doesn't it?" That's what Hasbro seems to be telling them anyway.
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You got Hasbro's number there.
What I find unbelievable about the whole Hasbro and case assortment crap is that the solution is so easy. Doesn't Hasbro have la consultant that can tell them what's hot and what's not ???. I mean, they do group panels with collectors from time to time. I was invited to participate in a group panel discussion about the Titanium series. I think it was good I could not go otherwise I would have given them the boot. :-X
It is not hard to talk to collectors about what sells and what doesn't. I find it amazing that with their "star wars is forever" crap they are still going to screw us and the kids forever.
They have taken our votes into consideration before like with the fan choice figures. Polling people in their website is so easy that is amazes me why they do not do it more often. Oh well...
Gatillo
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This is all the more hilarious/frustrating having been at the C3 panel. There are people at Hasbro that Get It. You could see some of the guys on the panel's frustration at a lot of things, just by watching their face. They understand who's buying a lot of their stuff. Somewhere up the line, like any great government there's some knob that has this stuck in their craw:
Hasbro is like that annoying guy at the bookstore who will not admit they are wrong because it would make them appear (or so they believe) weak.
As annoying as Colman was at the panel discussion, he was right. Hasbro is not paying attention and it isn't just evil JD saying so. There were a ton of guys in that room and not one child that I saw. It was adults with disposable income that build armies and buy secondary characters.
I'd thought Hasbro might be figuring it out by releasing all the new lines really targeted at kids (whether adults buy them or not) - Force Battlers, playskool-ish stuff, etc. The kids did seem to like them at C3. Great, target them with that and then figure out the action figures for collectors predominantly.
We've been re-inundated with case 1 so Vader can be found here, as can clones, Grievous and Royal Guard. I guess a $7.44-9.99 price point detracts the ebay crowd to some extent. But good luck finding anything other than a basic clone (which is a challenge by itself). I found a pile of them on Friday, upwards of 30 each at Walmart. All gone the next day. By Thursday this week I'd expect that store to be in the same boat as DP has described.
Dump some Obi/Ani/Yoda out of the cases, please. Don't throw in more Bail/Mon/Padme. Fill it up with clones, Grievous, Vader.
Odd observation: wookies are sitting around here collecting dust. I expect that will change by this coming weekend.
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Wow! Finally a mature discussion about the problem with the case assortments. I really agree with most of what's been said.
Yeah, Hasbro has an excellent resource to gauge what will sell (the collecting community) and they refuse to use it. But, coupled with the fact that when they do give us something we've been begging for, like the Shuttle, it gets handled poorly and doesn't sell, giving Hasbro further reason to ignore us.
I'm all of the opion of what was said earlier, when it all comes down to it, it's the suits with their Harvard business degrees calling the shots, and they don't necessarily know what's happening in the real world.
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I agree with the general sentiments of these posts (I would love to have a case of clones!) but I don't think that it's entirely hasbro's fault that we're seeing some pegwarmers and having a hard time finding "good" figures.
Hasbro has to cater to the retailers first, so whatever Target and walmart want in their cases, they get. Then TRU and lesser chains such as KB can input their needs. Since walmart and Target have to cater to everybody and not just toys and not just to collectors, they want figures that look good on the pegs as well as a wide variety of figures. If a mother walks down the toy aisle of walmart and sees only clones, she might buy 1 for her kid, but she's going to be mad that there's "not much selection." Target and walmart want to see the "heroes" on the pegs and fully stocked because those are the figures that kids want. (How many people had tons of vintage royal guards and only 1 Han Solo figure when they were little?)
I just think that we, the collectors (adults w/discretionary income ;) ) have to accept our place as second-class citizens for hasbro's bottom line. Hasbro is too big of a company to take big chances like shipping a full case of clones to mass-market retail stores, they'd rather play it safe and ship assortments with a mix of heroes and villains...and senators... :P
On that note, I also think that hasbro has done much to appease us. The Entertainment Earth Exclusive Clone Trooper Army Builder sets were one thing that I thought that I would never see. These sets really show that hasbro does listen to us and sometimes even does something about it. It also showed hasbro that we are willing to shell out a little extra cash for great figures that wouldn't sell that well in retail stores. Successfully catering to us through alternate routes (such as online retailers) showed to hasbro that the market is ripe for things like army builders and special exclusives.
I don't want to sound like I'm a big-hasbro supporter because I will readily admit that they have made and continue to make huge mistakes/errors of judgment on a lot of things, but i'm just saying that things like case assortments are a little bit out of their control; some of the blame really needs to be placed on the large retail stores.
I really saw the proverbial "bright light at the end of the tunnel" after getting my set of EE Clone Troopers. I am hoping that hasbro realized the huge market potential and will bring forth other sets (come on, ep. III Clone Trooper builder sets would be a piece of cake, as would VOTC Stormtrooper builder sets).
Sorry if this seems like a rant, I am really enjoying this topic and just wanted to put forth my 2 cents for everybody's consideration. ;D
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Hasbro has to cater to the retailers first, so whatever Target and walmart want in their cases, they get.
Wal-Mart (believe it or not) has no say in what figures are included in what case assortments directly. Hasbro takes care of all that themselves based on what they think retail wants. They have those big meetings with the retailers where the higher-ups get to see film footage or photos of new items and they pick from assortments (like the basic line, deluxe line, Force Battlers, etc) what lines they will carry. No major retailer (WM, Target, or TRU) says "We want a case with this many Obi-Wans, this many Anakins" and so on because what one retail outlet wants does not always match up with what the other retail outlets want. If Hasbro did what the retailers wanted individually, they would have five times as many case assortments as they do now and it would be much more confusing and much less cost efficient for Hasbro.
The only places where retail has a say in how many they get of an item is with exclusives. Target says to Hasbro that they would like "something special" to attract people to Target above the other retailers. Hasbro says, "Well, we've got an idea for a Clone Trooper that has a logo on him that looks just similar enough to a Target corporate logo that might work." Target says, "We could probably sell 50,000 of those." The order is placed. Target doesn't say that they want a case of mass market figures that can be bought anywhere else for the same price because then there is nothing that makes Target's selection unique. Same with the other places.
Target and walmart want to see the "heroes" on the pegs and fully stocked because those are the figures that kids want.
I think the next two weeks will see whether or not kids are going to be buying this line at all. I've seen very few (I can count them on one hand) looking at SW toys lately, and if the young'uns and their notoriously short attention spans don't get all hyped up about an Obi-Wan or a Yoda after they see the movie, they aren't going to get hyped up at all.
I don't deny that it is important to get the main characters out there, and I'm certainly not implying that we need to do an "all background character" line for a year, as that would be destined to fail. The problem is that there is an absolute glut of several main characters out there right now, almost none of the others, and with kids' interest in the line/movie being a more or less temporary thing, collectors are the ones that are going to be buying the majority of this stuff, all claims by Hasbro to the contrary.
If the glut of Obi-Wans and Anakins is not cleared up by kids soon, and with Hasbro insisting on shipping even more of those same figures for the next few months, the collectors who drive this line aren't going to be able to find anything new whatsoever due to the pegs that retail will consider full, and retail will complain to Hasbro that sales are down. Then Hasbro will scale back their plans for next year, and it's very possible that retailers (particularly WM, who has this kind of pull) could stop supporting the line.
Is that retail's fault? I don't think so. Hasbro likes to pass off the blame for their own backwards thinking onto retailers or consumers all the time because they are in their ivory towers in Pawtucket away from it all. If there is too little product on the shelves, Hasbro blames it on retail not ordering enough. Never mind the fact that the reason retail isn't ordering enough is because Hasbro has continually sent out stuff that they already have in abundance for the past 10 years of this line that ends up being clearanced.
Likewise, if there is an overabundance of a particular figure, this is also retail's fault for overordering the assortments that Hasbro makes up themselves. When it comes right down to it (and I've said this several times before), Hasbro is never wrong, Hasbro never makes mistakes, and Hasbro wants us to buy, buy, buy, because we are good consumers. Be productive. Consume. Buy. Buy and be happy. :)
Hasbro is too big of a company to take big chances like shipping a full case of clones to mass-market retail stores, they'd rather play it safe and ship assortments with a mix of heroes and villains...and senators...
Hasbro has shipped solid cases several times before. They did solid cases of Stormtrooper Luke, Vader, and the Jawas in the POTF2 days; they shipped solid cases of Jedi Duel Maul in the Episode I line; and the new 12" cases with more Grievouses mixed in shows that they knew there was a shortage of those at retail. So there is a precedent.
On that note, I also think that hasbro has done much to appease us. The Entertainment Earth Exclusive Clone Trooper Army Builder sets were one thing that I thought that I would never see. These sets really show that hasbro does listen to us and sometimes even does something about it.
The EE Clone four packs are going to come back and bite us all in our collective hindquarters. Are they cool? Undoubtedly so. Are they overpriced? Again, undoubtedly. Hasbro listens to us when it benefits them and at no other time. Their attitude toward collectors is one of disgust and disrespect, and if anyone doubts that, I'm sure JediMAC can dig up the Q&A the JD staff did with them at ComicCon last fall that pretty much had the Hasbro reps calling collectors idiots in so many words.
It also showed hasbro that we are willing to shell out a little extra cash for great figures that wouldn't sell that well in retail stores.
And this is the problem. It starts with the Clone Trooper four packs (which I disagree with you on regarding how well they would sell in stores; one only look at the complete lack of Clones hanging on the pegs for ROTS to see that), which costs 35 bucks, plus shipping, for figures that would cost 20 bucks at retail, and continues with the Target Clone, which Hasbro had advertised at 10 bucks and Target charges 13 for. Where does it end? All these little exclusives are a way for Hasbro to gauge just how much we are willing to pay for Star Wars stuff, and the more we pay, the more they are encouraged to raise the prices. It's a slippery slope, and one that could very well cause me to quit collecting the 4" line before too long. I can handle 13 dollars for a Clone Trooper maybe once a year; but if they start doing ALL the figures like that, I'm out.
I don't want to sound like I'm a big-hasbro supporter because I will readily admit that they have made and continue to make huge mistakes/errors of judgment on a lot of things, but i'm just saying that things like case assortments are a little bit out of their control; some of the blame really needs to be placed on the large retail stores.
I don't want to sound like I'm a big Hasbro-basher either; I'm a fan of the films, first and foremost, and I collect the figures because I like having a piece of the films, in some goofy way, to take home with me. My disappointment comes with the fact that Hasbro has been doing POTF2 since 1995, and they are still making the same mistakes they did at the beginning of that line. They haven't learned anything when it comes to how to market the line; all they have learned is how much they can make off of it. Sometimes I wonder if they have even seen the films. :D
And I'd like to point out that none of this post is directed at you, Gregorbian, so I hope it wasn't taken that way. I am always interested in hearing everyone else's opinions on a topic like this, and it's one of the reasons I enjoy JD so much as a whole. Had I started a thread like this in other unnamed forums, it would have devolved into me being called names, and people with too many Gs in their names closing the thread out of a fear of it insulting the cash cow for their Wise Leader. ;)
EDITED: eye spel gud. :-*
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Yes, it is frustrating when you browse through the assortment breakdowns (see entertainmentearth.com for case breakdowns).
The SA clone must cost Hasbro a lot more to produce (compared to "regular" NA figures) for the simple fact that he constitutes a very small percentage of the 3-4 assortments he's in.
Hasbro has GOT to know that there is a lot of demand for this figure (based on the reponse from the SA AOTC clone trooper AND secondary price this figure commands).
The same "logic" applies to most Unleashed figures. The popular figures are still packed 2 per case (Vader, stormie, Fett, etc.).
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Interesting counter-points DoctorPadawan ;D You make a very strong argument and I definitely agree with you on a lot of it, I was just trying to put out a second opinion and place a little more blame on the retailers.
I still think that hasbro has to bend to the will of the big retailers to an extent (maybe I was mistaken when I said that the retailers can dictate the case assortments directly) because the big-guys want to see a variety of figures filling the pegs, especially the good guys.
If the glut of Obi-Wans and Anakins is not cleared up by kids soon, and with Hasbro insisting on shipping even more of those same figures for the next few months, the collectors who drive this line aren't going to be able to find anything new whatsoever due to the pegs that retail will consider full, and retail will complain to Hasbro that sales are down. Then Hasbro will scale back their plans for next year, and it's very possible that retailers (particularly WM, who has this kind of pull) could stop supporting the line.
I agree with you completely here, and that's really the same logic that I use when I say that stores like wal-mart and Target have pull on what figures hasbro ships. These big stores want a lot of the hero figures because they are easier to mass-market and because a lot of their customers are non-collectors. I've seen countless mothers/kids picking up the figures at my local Target stores and they always go for the Obi-Wans, Chewies, Yodas, etc etc. (side note: Once I saw a grandfather and his granddaughter picking out some figures. The granddaughter really wanted a Chewbacca figure so I helped her look for it, but came up bone dry. I offered her a #23 Blue Senate Guard that I had picked up but she didn't like him. She ended up getting a Spinning Yoda and a Jedi-Kick Obi-Wan...poor girl. :P ) Anyway, back on topic, if somebody that is unfamiliar with Star Wars is in a toy aisle and they're going to buy a figure for their son/daughter/grandson/granddaughter/etc/etc they are more likely to pick up a well-known character than a Senator Bail Organa "Republic Senator!" figure (unless they're a Jimmy Smitts fan :P).
I stopped collecting figures during the green card days so I was unaware of hasbro shipping entire cases of 1 figure, but I don't see how retailers would like something like that. Also, those figures are now $2 each on eBay so maybe hasbro will tend more towards the corrective case assortments than solid-packs (#23 royal guard being packed with current assortments as opposed to cases of #23). Don't get me wrong, I would be a big fan of solid-case assortments of various clones, but I just can't see the logic of it from a retail standpoint. I think, from a manager's point of view, it would be much better to see a wide assortment of figures than a wall of clones (man, that would be awesome ;)) .
The EE Clone four packs are going to come back and bite us all in our collective hindquarters. Are they cool? Undoubtedly so. Are they overpriced? Again, undoubtedly. Hasbro listens to us when it benefits them and at no other time. Their attitude toward collectors is one of disgust and disrespect, and if anyone doubts that, I'm sure JediMAC can dig up the Q&A the JD staff did with them at ComicCon last fall that pretty much had the Hasbro reps calling collectors idiots in so many words.
First, I would definitely love to read that Q&A; I could definitely see that happening. As for the EE Clones, $10/figure after shipping is a lot, definitely, but I like the precedent that has now been established. Now, hasbro can fill collector's voids by making relatively small production runs of figures that cater almost exclusively to collectors. I don't see these selling that well on the mass-market because at a $35 price point, I can't see casual consumers picking many of these up; they would almost go exclusively to collectors (and spoiled kids ... and spoiled collectors ;)) . If the price point was lower, which would be possible given a higher mass-market production run, then they would fly off of the shelves. I think that's part of the reason for the upcoming Evolutions Sets.
Hasbro is a big company, so the bottom line will always be $$$, and if hasbro sees a way to exploit a collector-niche market, they will do so.
I think I've side-tracked my self a bit...
Where does it end? All these little exclusives are a way for Hasbro to gauge just how much we are willing to pay for Star Wars stuff, and the more we pay, the more they are encouraged to raise the prices. It's a slippery slope, and one that could very well cause me to quit collecting the 4" line before too long. I can handle 13 dollars for a Clone Trooper maybe once a year; but if they start doing ALL the figures like that, I'm out.
Yes, the Target Clones flying off of the shelves (and costing $25 on eBay) is very scary, because now hasbro and Target realize that they can charge that much and still sell out completely. Hasbro is just raking it in right now because we are, for all intents and purposes, a "captive audience." (I bought some sort of gooey candy just because it had a Darth Vader head on it the other day :'(). If it came down to it though, like you, I would drop out of collecting (again) if the prices went too high or if the quality went too low. Will other people drop out as well? Sure. Will a lot of people stick around and continue to buy? Of course. With no more films (apparently), hasbro will have to cater to us more and more in the following years.
I think a lot of the problems that people are having right now with finding figures is that so many people are buying them. People that wouldn't normally buy figures are picking them up because of the hype and that further reduces the amount of figures for us to find at retail. I personally haven't had a problem finding any figure so far, but I understand how frustrating it can be to search and search and not find the figures that you want.
OK, I seem to be way off of my original point and have started rambling. Basically, yes, hasbro messes up a lot and should really pay closer attention to the needs of collectors (if you cater to the early adopters, you don't have to worry about anything), but I think that the retail stores add to the frustration just as much. It just seems that neither hasbro nor the big retail chains learn from their mistakes.
I hope that my points achieve some semblance of coherence, and, DoctorPadawan, clearly none of this is directed as an attack at you. I really enjoy these types of conversations and I'm glad that we can have one without everybody resorting to calls of "scalper!" "hoarder!" and "idiot". ;D
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I still think that hasbro has to bend to the will of the big retailers to an extent
And I've made some veiled comments in the past here about Wal-Mart ultimately holding the fate of the SW line at retail in their hands, but I didn't know how far to take that explanation for people that don't know how much pull Wal-Mart has on brands in every area of the store. They've caused several companies to file for bankruptcy, they have been partially responsible for the decrease in quality of Levi's jeans and many other products that used to be synonymous with the word "quality", and as far as it relates to toy collectors, they are the number one toy retailer on the planet, sadly, and if WM isn't down with something, it can effectively kill that line.
The thing that worries me with the ROTS case assortments as it relates to Wal-Mart is that if WM gets stuck with a whole lot of excess figures that they cannot get rid of (like the Deluxe Obi-Wan) at half price, they're going to become upset. I'm of the opinion that the majority of WM toy managers hate Star Wars and the collectors of said line, because the SW section at WM is without a doubt, the most disorganized and least stocked area of the toy aisle. In a non-movie year, WM is lucky if they stock figures once in three months, and when they are your only outlet in small, rural areas, that makes collecting tough. Even now, in a movie year, one of my local WMs hasn't restocked figures more than twice since April 2nd, and their SW section is a disaster area.
This doesn't even take into account the "hot" exclusive Early Bird set that Hasbro convinced WM was a great idea. I've not heard of many areas that don't still have gobs of these on the shelf at full price; the other retailer exclusives have already come and gone and sold like gangbusters. 50,000 Lava Vaders in less than a day for Target, while WM still has the bulk of its 50,000 empty envelopes.
I have a tendency to ramble too, as you can no doubt tell, but my point is this: something major is going to have to happen as far as people other than collectors buying the figures between now and the end of the summer (late July) months or else WM is going to look at the pegs jammed full of Obi-Wans and Anakins and Yodas and say, "Star Wars just isn't selling. Don't reorder." And we all know what happens when WM decides not to reorder and put something on clearance: a lot of times, that line doesn't even enter back into the store.
Anyway, back on topic, if somebody that is unfamiliar with Star Wars is in a toy aisle and they're going to buy a figure for their son/daughter/grandson/granddaughter/etc/etc they are more likely to pick up a well-known character than a Senator Bail Organa
Oh, I don't doubt this a bit at all. I'm actually someone who looks forward to a decent Obi-Wan more than I do some of the weird background characters (I am also a minority in that, I think). My point was that there is a glut of certain figures out there, and by glut, I mean that 4 out of every 5 figures are either Obi-Wan, Anakin, Yoda, Mace, R2, Chewbacca, or the Super Battle Droid. Despite this, Hasbro is continuing to mix several of those figures into case assortments for later this summer (I read over at EE that the Mustafar Anakin case will include figures 25-28 again since stores aren't drowning in Tarffuls enough these days). It's good to have variety, and I don't dispute that, but when the variety consists of 6 of the same figures over and over with a random background character mixed in, variety ceases to exist.
First, I would definitely love to read that Q&A; I could definitely see that happening.
It was very telling as far as what Hasbro (or at least those particular reps) thought when someone wasn't blindly kissing their asses and asking actual questions. I'd actually like to read it again if someone could dig the link to the story back up. ;D
I hope that my points achieve some semblance of coherence, and, DoctorPadawan, clearly none of this is directed as an attack at you. I really enjoy these types of conversations and I'm glad that we can have one without everybody resorting to calls of "scalper!" "hoarder!" and "idiot".
Well, that's the great thing about JD when you compare it to most of the other message boards (you know who I'm talking about). I know I'm all "Chicken Little" sometimes when it comes to the SW lines, but I can say that kind of thing here without judgment. People may disagree with me, people may agree with me, but at least here you're granted the accordance of polite consideration, and no matter what, I give others the same. It's the best forum on the web for SW toys, and I don't just say that because I'm posting it here. Other places your thread would be locked and you would be banned, but not until you got 50 spam emails with no "unsubscribe" link. ;D
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Sorry, this thread is severely lacking in short posts. :o :P
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Haha, DoctorPadawan and I are "wordy" ;)
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I tend to agree with Dr. Padawan that Hasbro's got enough of a hand in this that they could be doing better... There's no Clone multi-pack on the market, yet it was inevitable Clones would be the hot thing...
Army builders aside, my gf's kids want Clones and just can't find the damn things... they've actually focused instead on Legos since they said, and I quote, "I got Clones with this walker thing... You can't even find a Clone! Haha!"
Yes, a 7 year old gave me a "Nelson Ha Ha" because he got a Clone with his AT-RT Lego... God Dammit. :)
Anyway, I think Hasbro can do better... I think retail can do better though as well, and they are a step in the process, but Hasbro's got the majority of responsibility here ultimately... It's their job to make the assortment and sell it... You'd think retail would be able to looka t their pegs and say, "ya know, we would like more Clones actually". :)
I tend to disagree with the EE Clones being such a GREAT thing though however... I like them, the concept's as sound as it gets, but the price is prohibitive to the actual intent... I don't know anyone going ape**** with army building with these really... And I debate just how well these sold, or EE wouldn't have declined more I think, and the exclusive wouldn't have shown now at other outlets... I think a lot of information on these is still in the dark, and may remain that way.
For what it's worth though, even in new packaging, by the case from EE, these sold for $6.25-ish/figure shipped... that's what I'm paying my buddy who bought a few cases for local collectors to divy up... EE made a profit even at $6.25 each, though admitedly a smaller margin since they were selling by higher volume. An all -white case would've been an ideal, to ship alongside the white/officer case.
Anyway, these figures don't really cost more than the other to make and sell, and if it's a figure like Clones/Troop Builders then increased sales should more than make up every cost incurred by simple volume of sales. The construction of a SA Clone isn't anything more spectacular than a Mon Mothma... There's just a few more parts to snap together. If one part of production cost more than anything it's "injection molded" pieces (the ball/socket shoulders and whatnot), but that's been a more common feature in the ROTS line than ever... It's not an expensive process really, nor more time consuming...
What really can cost on a SA style figure are the fixed costs like mold toolings and such, which are expensive, but which depreciate as more and more of a figure is sold... For every Clone put out, that cost is a little less, and the margin of profit isn't so narrow. Costs are incurred to produce more, but the price of a sale always covers the cost of production (+ a retailing MSRP/profit factored in) otherwise none would be made or sold.
The EE Clone set still just irks me that its very purpose (to army build) was dashed by overly expensive packaging, and an unnecessarilly high price per figure if you wanted only white Clones... I personally can't justify more than the couple sets I got, and only then because of their coming from cases bought by friends. :-\ I'm a guy with 100's of army builders, and sadly this one it looks like I'll not have too many of.
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The EE Clone packs were a good idea that was poorly executed, like many of Hasbro's exclusive items over the years. From what I can tell, the Stormtrooper/Sandtrooper FC 4-packs in the plain white boxes sold really well years ago (to the point that I never got the Sandtrooper pack, the only one I wanted), and they could have easily (and more cheaply) extended an olive branch to us and made them a mailaway exclusive four pack back in 2003. Sadly, they chose to use the JMPs for those stupid auctions and I'm sure there are still thousands of people with gobs of them sitting in a drawer to this day.
But, instead of selling the Clones directly to the people the very idea courts (army builders) for a decent price, they give them to one of the e-tailers that does the most markup on warehouse stock of anyone else (meaning that they get their stock directly from Hasbro, unlike other etailers who will not be named), slaps them in a fancy box, and doesn't say a word when EE makes it fairly cost prohibitive for anyone who doesn't have an oil refinery in their backyard to get a complete set. As it is, I had trouble scraping together enough money to get the one set I actually wanted, and it was only because of one of the fine people on this board that I'm going to have that set.
A window box wasn't necessary, a poster wasn't necessary, and 35 dollars plus shipping was definitely not necessary. It's just giving Hasbro ammunition to say, "Well, they paid approximately 8.75 a figure for these Clones, they paid 13 for the Target Clone, how much will they pay for (fill in the blank here)?" It's a case of "giving an inch and taking a yard."
But anyway, to shed further confusion/light on Hasbro's case assortments, we have a few vehicles coming later this summer, all of which will have to be ordered under the same UPCs that are still on the shelves. The Wookiee Copter is part of the Small Vehicle line (along with the Boga, BARC, and AT-RT) and I don't know about you guys, but if I see another BARC Speeder, I'm going to vomit. The Boga is selling okay, and the AT-RT comes and goes, but the BARC is going to be the thing that keeps the Wookiee Copter from showing up in great numbers. And what do you know, it's seemingly the last one in that assortment! How predictable!
I think that Plo Koon's Starfighter is going to be a major dud even when it does hit and no matter how many of them are packed per case. Knowing Hasbro though, they'll ship more of the Anakin and Obi-Wan Starfighters with it, since you know, there just aren't nearly enough of those around these days.
I have a feeling that the Deluxe line is going to be the one that results in a massive cluster**** later this summer though. There are so many Obi-Wans hanging on the pegs right now that the majority of the retailers I visit don't even have room to restock the figures even if they wanted to. Only Target has more room for the newer ones, which disappear after a few days, but WM is choking on the Obi-Wans and if I see any of the Wave 3 Deluxes there, I'd be amazed. At least Hasbro is being smart and not reshipping older Deluxes in cases with the new waves (yet). And this doesn't even take into account the massive disaster that awaits when the Clones come out in Wave 3, especially if they do several color variants at their usual 1 per case ratio to make room for the big seller: THE SPIDER DROID! KIDS LIKE TOYS THAT WIND UP CONSARNIT!
And yes, I'm very verbose, but the amazing thing to me is how often I use parentheses in posts. I really need to cut that out. :)
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I liked the EE exclusive sets a lot (I know, I seem like a major contrarian) and I thought that, all things considered, they were well done. They catered to army builders and carded/MIP collectors (I thought that they looked excellent in the package) and were easy to get. Granted, the price point was nigh ridiculous (and destroyed my wallet) but I'm happy that I was able to get some more Ep. II SA Clone Troopers. (the eBay price for these guys was upwards of $20 each for a Clone Wars loose figure) so paying $9/figure wasn't that much a comparative deal.
As for the dangerous precedent that we as collectors have now set in terms of "exclusives" and "army builders," I completely agree. Hasbro learns through their mistakes and tries to get away with as much as possible (which I guess is normal corporate strategy), so if they can get away with charging $15 a figure for "exclusive" clone troopers, then they will. However, as was previously noted, the initial price of the Target Exclusive Clone was $9.99 and Target jacked the price up to $13; furthering my frustration with retail stores...
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I can appreciate the frustation, but there is one factor that has not been discussed here at all: TIME. The toy line for REVENGE OF THE SITH is only about 6 weeks old. In that time there has been a great deal of buzz and attention on the line. That makes some things tougher to find (for a little while) and other things seem to be pegwarmers. Give it time for things to settle out. I took a good look at some of the case assortments that are current or upcoming. There are still a good number of the figures that have been mentioned here on the way. All you have to do is check out some of the case assortments that EE or Newforce Comics have listed. I think the long term trend is going to work out much more favorably.
You also have a couple of artificial factor that's being applied on stock levels at stores. Those are the speculators/scalpers and the army builders. Add in fairly zealous collectors who are at the store every morning and you've got a tougher environment for collecting. Give it time. Army builders are going to buy their fill, scalpers will move onto other items, and collectors will find what they're looking for. Give it time. Seriously, patience is the most obvious answer to so many of these kinds of posts and you'd think that people would learn it's only a matter of time before you find some things. There are 40+ basic figures out there along with 8 Deluxe figures. You're going to find them eventually.
Thus far the distribution seems to be much better than that of 1999 and 2002. There doesn't a glut of first wave product clogging shelves to the point where orders for future waves are being cut back. However, Toys R Us stores are still getting a number of first wave cases to keep the core characters like Obi-Wan, Anakin, Vader, Yoda, Grievous, Palpatine & Clone Troopers out there. I went to a store last week and saw 7 cases worth of just such an assortment going out. These things are going to wind up being more favorable to both collectors and the casual fan.
As for the comment about a lack of Clone Trooper multi-packs...HELLO. The Evolutions 3-Pack? The Deluxe 3-packs that are modeled on the Clone Wars 3-packs? What are those? And once again...we're only 6 weeks into the line. GIVE IT TIME. Do you seriously expect Hasbro to blow their load all at once? Why don't we at least give Hasbro until Comic Con (otherwise known as the Summer Toy Fair) before passing judgement.
It's this kind of impatience that really makes the collecting community seem like a dog chasing it's tail at times. Hasbro has the master toy license until 2018. Let them space it out a little bit in order to keep it interesting and vital for years to come.
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I think that DoctorPadawan's point in his initial post (and if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me) was that he was frustrated that after 2 major movie launches as well as 10 years of selling Star Wars figures, Hasbro would have worked out some better case assortments.
Based on 10 years of sales records and marketing research, I'm sure that that a better balance of mass-market items and "collectible" items could be achieved in their case assortments.
I think that with the combined resources of the various retail stores and hasbro, people shouldn't have such a hard time picking up the popular figures.
You also have a couple of artificial factor that's being applied on stock levels at stores. Those are the speculators/scalpers and the army builders. Add in fairly zealous collectors who are at the store every morning and you've got a tougher environment for collecting. Give it time.
Absolutely true. The hype is certainly something to factor in for an issue like this. With good and saturated marketing comes increased sales.
I don't think that people's patience is a problem with these posts. Personally, I have found all of the figures that I am looking for and have been able to buy multiples of the ones of which I want multiples. The figures have only been out for 6 weeks, but the fact that several TRU's are still putting out old stock from the April 2nd release date should say something about poor planning.
I think that topics like these need to be brought up, because it is frustrating to not be able to pick up the good figures that you want and then to see them on eBay for crazy prices, etc etc. It is a bit early to go into full-on panic mode, obviously, but not everybody can check their local stores during their lunches (like I am able to do) or go to Targets when they open and get first "dibs" on figures. There are many things that must be factored in, but I think DoctorPadawan brought up a good point with the case assortments.
As for the upcoming clone sets, hopefully they will be put out in abundance, but I'm not going to hold my breath for them...
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Frankly, I don't see a lot of core characters warming the pegs. When I was looking for the Anakin with Dooku saber variation, I was very surprised to see the LACK of Anakin and Obi-Wan figures on the pegs. These figures are continuing to ship so that the more casual fans can buy them. The truth is that it's not all about collectors, but kids really DO factor in.
As for getting the newer figures, you've basically got two routes to go: persistance or patience. Persistance demands that you show up at the store at opening and wait until they put out new stock. In a movie year that could be as many as three times a week. Where patience factors in is how long are you willing to wait? Two or three weeks ago people were talking about Clone Commanders and Clone Pilots and how it was tough to get them. Now you see them on a fairly regular basis. The same thing goes for Clone Troopers. They ARE continuing to ship. I walked into a TRU store last week and saw at least a dozen or more #6 Clone Troopers. A few days later they were gone. There's turnover.
What I notice sticking around a little longer are the Collection 2 figures. They don't move as quickly as the Collection 1 figures. And you know what? They don't ship in the same quantities that the Collection 2 figures do.
I think Hasbro has learned more than people give them credit for. This is their third toy line launch for Star Wars accompanying a movie release. This is a much better situation in terms of the overall availability of figures than 1999. Let us keep in mind the natural inclination of the American collector to complain.
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I have to agree that for here in Iowa at least, distribution is much better than it ever has been before. The only challenge here is the Red Guard and maybe the Tank Gunner, and I've seen him every day now this week, which leads me to believe the heat is off him. And of course #41-44, but they're still new. Turn over is high here, mainly at Target, who have the most current shipments.
It can always be better, though. I hate the exclusives, the packing of army builders one to a case, and the scalpers, but overall for me it's better this time around than last.
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As for the comment about a lack of Clone Trooper multi-packs...HELLO. The Evolutions 3-Pack? The Deluxe 3-packs that are modeled on the Clone Wars 3-packs? What are those? And once again...we're only 6 weeks into the line. GIVE IT TIME. Do you seriously expect Hasbro to blow their load all at once? Why don't we at least give Hasbro until Comic Con (otherwise known as the Summer Toy Fair) before passing judgement.
It's this kind of impatience that really makes the collecting community seem like a dog chasing it's tail at times. Hasbro has the master toy license until 2018. Let them space it out a little bit in order to keep it interesting and vital for years to come.
Nick...
Please calm down, nobody's in a panic or tizzy here I think since most people seem to have at least some of what they're looking for... I think being condescending in your reply isn't a necessity, as if you know this industry inside out and the rest of us are merely outside opinions... My point about no Clone multi-packs on shelves, as is in the context of what I wrote, was that there's NONE OUT NOW, for neither the build-up period to the film's release, nor for the release of the film itself. The Evolutions set, the 3-pack... They're NOT on pegs right now, and I'm not seeing TE Gunners, Commanders, or even the #6 Clone in great quantities either, if at all.
The film is here... It's now... Clones are a rarity on the pegs at any store save for TRU (and perhaps KB). And even at TRU the Clones aren't what I'd call "flowing like wine"... You're missing the point I was making. I've been down the collecting path for long enough that I (and the rest of us I'm sure) know patience is what pays off... You know as much as the rest of us, and I'm sure we all can see the point that Clones aren't on the pegs at the most pivotal moment for pushing a film, which is right now. That's smart business strategy, and Hasbro is missing it, and case ratios could be at fault... It's like there being no Vader on the pegs right now, or no main characters... It's not a good thing.
When a 7 year old says to me that the 3.75" line basically bites because I (myself) can't find a Clone, but his Legos rock because he has a small army going, I'm not really complaining from a personal perspective... I have amassed a nice collection. The point is one where Hasbro's maybe got the license till 2018, but these moments of opportunity to "hook" people don't come around every day, and not having some thing so pivotal as the Clone figure available in much of any form, is not a GOOD thing when the film is here now and the rush is on... When a kid passes on THEIR line for Lego because they don't have the product out (due to bad case ratios or whatever the case may be), then THAT is bad business.
The line has time for the die-hards, that's without a doubt... 2018's a long ways off. No Clones on the pegs though for the premiere of the film, I can't see how that could be argued as "good business" in any way... Who is at fault for that? I think Hasbro can take its share of the blame, along with others.
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Jesse, thanks for saying what I would have said had I been awake. ;)
Nick, I certainly agree that time is a factor with the release of these figures, but while it might be too early to say that certain figures are going to be long-term pegwarmers, we are also on the day of the film's release. I'm of the opinion that this weekend in particular will be the time when we see what interest kids are going to have in this line. Kind of going along with what Jesse referred to, what happens when a kid goes into a retailer and wants a Darth Vader or a Clone Trooper and doesn't see one to buy? Is he going to have mom and dad drive around and keep looking, or is he going to buy something else? :-\
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My point has been completely missed. Go to EE and check out all of the case assortments. Almost every case out there has Clone Troopers of one sort or another in it. And cases continue to ship to stores EVERY DAY. Add in the fact that sometimes anecdotal evidence just doesn't carry that much weight since things can be regionally skewed by how collectors collect in a certain area. One city or region does not necessarily reflect the rest of the country. No Clones on the pegs in one city? So. I saw plenty on the pegs in my area last night. My area just so happens to be one of the biggest metroploitan areas in the world. The two things don't seem to correlate, do they?
If you look at things with a measure of reason, you can see that there are some important trends that have developed. Such as the fact that Hasbro has put the bulk of their Clone Troopers in Collection 1 cases which happen to ship in higher quantities than Collection 2 cases. Does that leave the AT-TE Tank Gunner and the Royal Guards out in the cold? Yes, but those figures continue ship in over half a dozen different case assortments if you look at what's current and move on from there.
As for which characters SHOULD be on pegs, I would argue that it's Anakin Skywalker. It's HIS movie. And despite that, Hasbro has recognized that there is a demand for army builders and told collectors so at their Q&A session in Indianapolis. They have plans for more army builders. Some of the sets I mentioned are due out within weeks of the movies release. THAT, I argue is the prime time for any sort of collectible. Once the public has had the opportunity to digest the movie I think overall interest and sales will actually continue to rise. Add in the fact that Star Wars will have a little longevity in the theaters and not be gone from the local multiplex within three weeks. The movies have traditionally had some legs, and with the reviews being as favorable as these have been, this one could last longer than TPM and AOTC did in theaters. That combined with the all-out marketing effort that's going on mean that we're going to have plenty of product offered to us by a range of Lucasfilm licensees.
Hasbro being one of those licensees sees the need for longevity and have to provide a continuous attraction to fans and collectors through the course of the summer and into the 2005 Holiday season. If we were deluged with even more product now it might be more than the market and Hasbro's retail partners could take. Product needs to be spaced out for the benefit of both collectors and retail.
As for some REAL evidence, I have spoken at length with some people at a major retail chain. They say that sales are actually up from the 2002 line launch. This is genuinely encouraging, as the better sales numbers mean that Star Wars will continue to have a good shelfspace presense at retail through at least the holiday season. More shelfspace means more product.
I think our current society has more to do with the ugliness I've seen here than we all know. We've become a culture of instant gratification, and if it isn't here now then how the hell is it good for? I see a buildup of reports of people trying to find figures, outraged that they can't find them at their earliest possible convenience. Then they find them and the ranting stops. Until they start to get impatient once more and start wondering "Where's the Tarkin wave, these Wookiee Warriors are pegwarmers now!" I see far more of this than good discussions of the pros and cons of the figures that we have in hand. If only people would wait three weeks before running off at the keyboard, I think we would all be much happier. The negative energy that it all evokes is rather troubling at times.
Now, as for my own credentials which you've seen fit to address, let's see if our creds match up here, okay Jesse? I have covered the following Hasbro events: Celebration 2, Celebration 3, Wizard World Chicago in 2003, Hasbro's Collector Media Day in 2003, Toy Fair 2004, and Toy Fair 2005. I've gotten to know these people somewhat, and they've offered interesting insights into the line. I also cover a couple of other licensees as well. Add in some good contacts at one of the country's largest toy chains and I have a little bit of a feel for the toy industry. Please make an effort to know who you're addressing before you start talking down to them.
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We're not here to discuss credentials Nick, and your "credentials" don't make your comments/opinions any more valid than the rest of us, to be honest, so let's just let that go please.
As for the actual case assortment issue, I agree with pretty much all the points that everyone else has already made in this thread. There's a serious lack of army building figures out there, along with the main villain figures (Vader, Grievous, Dooku). Hard even for kids to recreate a lot of the main scenes from the flick without any of those figures. So for that reason, I'd say that Hasbro still doesn't have their fingers on the pulse of what's truly desired at retail, to the point that their case assortments continue to be less than stellar.
But, in Hasbro's defense, I will say this: The figures are really moving pretty well this time, much better than I recall the last two films doing. AND... It's almost frightening to hear me of all people say this, but there have been a LOT of kids buying into the ROTS line, which I've never experienced before. I've seen more kids stalking the SW section of the aisle in the past month, than I've seen in the past 9.5 years combined. So, FOR ONCE, I'll give Hasbro a tiny bit of credit in discussing the buying potential of the kids.
But prior to the past month, every time I've heard Hasbro reps spewing nonsense about how the kids are the ones supporting the line, and who the line is tailored to (I won't include all the various events like Nick though), they've been ridiculously wrong, and it's an insult to collectors everywhere to hear them reiterate that bull**** over and over and over again, every single year, at every single event their reps attend. I guess that explains Brent's comment here, as I finally grew tired of the same crap, and had to call Hasbro on "a few" of their comments at the C3 panel:
As annoying as Colman was at the panel discussion, he was right. Hasbro is not paying attention and it isn't just evil JD saying so.
:P
But back to the case assortment issue, though retail sales seem to be doing better than before, and the kids are actually finally participating, there's still a ton more money that Hasbro could be making (and thus more retail peg space that could be available for newer product) with some better choices in their case packs and ratios. But I've pretty much just accepted that they'll never quite "get it", and just take what I can get, when I eventually find it.
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Well, let's analyze the cases.
GLOWING = Army Builders
GREEN = Core heroes & villains (Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda, Dooku, Palpatine, Grievous, Padme & Darth Vader)
BASIC FIGURES
COLLECTION 1
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 1
1 x # III/01 Obi-Wan Kenobi - Slashing Attack
1 x # III/02 Anakin Skywalker - Lightsaber Attack
1 x # III/03 Yoda - Firing Cannon
1 x # III/04 Super Battle Droid - Firing Arm Blaster!
1 x # III/05 Chewbacca - Wookiee Rage
1 x # III/06 Clone Trooper - Quick Draw Attack
1 x # III/07 R2-D2 - Droid Attack
1 x # III/08 Grievous's Bodyguard - Battle Attack!
1 x # III/09 General Grievous - 4 Lightsaber Attack!
1 x # III/10 Mace Windu - Force Combat
1 x # III/11 Darth Vader - Lightsaber Attack
1 x # III/12 Emporer Palpatine - Firing Force Lightning
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 1, Rev. 1
2x Obi-Wan Kenobi with slashing attack (EIII #1)
2x Anakin Skywalker with lightsaber attack (EIII #2)
2x Yoda with firing cannon (EIII #3)
2x Clone Trooper with quick-draw attack (EIII #6)
2x General Grievous with four lightsaber attack (EIII #9)
2x Darth Vader with lightsaber attack (EIII #11)
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 2
1x Yoda with firing cannon (EIII #3)
1x Clone Trooper with quick-draw attack (EIII #6)
1x Grievous's Bodyguard with battle attack (EIII #8)
1x General Grievous with four lightsaber attack (EIII #9)1x Mace Windu with Force combat (EIII #10)
1x Emperor Palpatine with firing Force lightning (EIII #12)
1x Tarfful with firing bowcaster (EIII #25)
1x Yoda with spinning attack (EIII #26)
2x Obi-Wan Kenobi with Jedi kick (EIII #27)
2x Anakin Skywalker with slashing attack (EIII #28)
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 2, Rev. 1
1x Obi-Wan Kenobi with slashing attack (EIII #1),
1x Anakin Skywalker with lightsaber attack (EIII #2),
1x Super Battle Droid with firing arm blaster (EIII #4),
1x Chewbacca with wookie rage (EIII #5),
1x R2-D2 wqith droid attack (EIII #7),
1x Darth Vader with lightsaber attack (EIII #11),
2x Tarfful with firing bowcaster (EIII #25),
2x Yoda with spinning attack (EIII #26),
1x Obi-Wan Kenobi with Jedi kick (EIII #27),
1x Anakin Skywalker with slashing attack (EIII #28)
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 3
1x Anakin Skywalker (EIII #2)
1x Yoda (EIII #3)
1x Clone Trooper (EIII #6)
1x Grievous' Bodyguard (EIII #8)
1x General Grievous (EIII #9)
2x Darth Vader (EIII #11)
2x Clone Commander (EIII #33)
1x Clone Pilot (EIII #34)
1x Palpatine (EIII #35)
1x General Grievous (EIII #36)
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 3, Rev. 1
1x Super Battle Droid (EIII #4)
1x Chewbacca (EIII #5)
1x R2-D2 (EIII #7)
1x Darth Vader (EIII #11)
1x Yoda (EIII #26)
1x Obi-Wan Kenobi (EIII #27)
1x Anakin Skywalker (EIII #28)
1x Clone Commander (EIII #33)
2x Clone Pilot (EIII #34)
1x Palpatine (EIII #35)
1x General Grievous (EIII #36)
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 4
1x Obi-Wan Kenobi (EIII #1)
2x Clone Commander (EIII #33)
2x Clone Pilot (EIII #34)
1x Palpatine (EIII #35)
1x General Grievous (EIII #36)
1x Clone Trooper (EIII #41)
1x Neimoidian Warrior (EIII #42)
2x Wookie Warrior (EIII #43)
1x Destroyer Droid (EIII #44)
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 4, Rev. 1
1x Obi-Wan Kenobi (EIII #1)
1x Clone Commander (EIII #33)
1x Clone Pilot (EIII #34)
1x Palpatine (EIII #35)
1x General Grievous (EIII #36)
1x General Grievous (EIII #9)
1x Clone Trooper (EIII #41)
1x Neimodian Warrior (EIII #42)
1x Wookie Warrior (EIII #43)
1x Destroyer Droid (EIII #44)
1x Anakin Skywalker (EIII #2)
1x Yoda (EIII #3)
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 4, Rev. 2
1x Yoda (EIII #26)
1x Clone Trooper (EIII #6)
1x Darth Vader (EIII #11)
1x Tarfful (EIII #25)
1x Clone Commander (EIII #33)
1x Clone Pilot (EIII #34)
1x Palpatine (EIII #35)
1x General Grievous (EIII #36)
1x Clone Trooper (EIII #41)
1x Neimoidian Warrior (EIII #42)
1x Wookie Warrior (EIII #43)
1x Destroyer Droid (EIII #44)
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 4, Rev. 3
1x Obi-Wan Kenobi (EIII #1)
1x Anakin Skywalker (EIII #2)
1x Yoda (EIII #3)
1x R2-D2 (EIII #7)
1x General Grievous (EIII #9)
2x Clone Trooper (EIII #41)
2x Neimoidian Warrior (EIII #42)
2x Wookie Warrior (EIII #43)
1x Destroyer Droid (EIII #44)
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 5
1x Tarfful (EIII #25)
1x Yoda (EIII #26)
1x Obi-Wan Kenobi (EIII #27)
1x Anakin Skywalker (EIII #28)
1x Palpatine (EIII #35)
1x General Grievous (EIII #36)
2x R2-D2 with Mustafar sounds (EIII #48)
2x Commander Baccarra (EIII #49)
2x Anakin Skywalker on Mustafar with Vader Hood & Cloak (EIII #50)
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 5, Rev. 1
2x Clone Trooper (EIII #6)
3x Darth Vader (EIII #11)
1x Clone Commander (EIII #33)
2x R2-D2 (EIII #48)
2x Anakin Skywalker (EIII #50)
2x Commander Baccarra (EIII #49)
SW Episode III Collection 1, Wave 6
2x Darth Vader (EIII #11)
1x Clone Trooper (EIII #41),
1x R2-D2 (EIII #48),
1x Anakin Skywalker (EIII #50)
1x Commander Baccarra (EIII #49)
2x Turbo Tank Driver (EIII #54)
2x Obi-Wan Pilot (EIII #56)
2x Mustafar Sentry (EIII #55)
COLLECTION 2
SW Episode III Collection 2, Wave 1
1x Count Dooku - Sith Lord (EIII #13)
1x Chancellor Palpatine - Superme Chancellor (EIII #14)
1x Bail Organa - Republic Senator (EIII #15)
1x Plo Koon - Jedi Master (EIII #16)
1x Battle Droid - Separatis Army (EIII #17)
1x C-3PO - Protocol Droid (EIII #18)
1x Padmé (pregnant Padme) - Republic Senator (EIII #19)
1x Agen Kolar - Jedi Master (EIII #20)
1x Shaak Ti - Jedi Master(EIII #21)
1x Kit Fisto - Jedi Master (EIII #22)
1x Royal Guard - Senate Security (EIII #23)
1x Mon Mothma - Republic Senator (EIII #24)
SW Episode III Collection 2, Wave 2
1x Bail Organa - Republic Senator (EIII #15)
1x Battle Droid - Separatist Army (EIII #17)
1x C-3PO - Protocol Droid (EIII #18)
1x Royal Guard - Senate security (EIII #23)
2x Ki-Adi-Mundi - Jedi Master (EIII #29)
2x Saesee Tiin - Jedi Master (EIII #30)
2x Luminara Unduli - Jedi Master (EIII #31)
2x Aayla Secura - Jedi Knight (EIII #32)
SW Episode III Collection 2, Wave 2, Rev. 1
1x Plo Koon - Jedi Master (EIII #16)
1x Agen Kolar - jedi Master (EIII #20)
1x Shaak Ti - Jedi Master (EIII #21)
1x Kit Fisto - Jedi Master (EIII #22)
2x Ki-Adi-Mundi - Jedi Master (EIII #29)
2x Saesee Tiin - Jedi Master (EIII #30)
2x Luminara Unduli - Jedi Master (EIII #31)
2x Aayla Secura - Jedi Knight (EIII #32)
SW Episode III Collection 2, Wave 3
1x Count Dooku (EIII #13)
1x Chancellor Palpatine (EIII #14)
1x Battle Droid (EIII #17)
1x C-3PO (EIII #18)
1x Ki-Adi-Mundi (EIII #29)
1x Saesee Tiin (EIII #30)
1x Luminara Unduli (EIII #31)
1x Aayla Secura (EIII #32)
1x Vader's Medical Droid (EIII #37)
1x AT-TE Tank Gunner (EIII #38)
1x Polis Maasan (EIII #39)
1x Mas Amedda (EIII #40)
SW Episode III Collection 2, Wave 3, Rev. 1
1x Bail Organa (EIII #15)
1x Padmé (EIII #19)
1x Kit Fisto (EIII #22)
1x Royal Guard (EIII #23)
2x Vader's Medical Droid (EIII #37)
2x AT-TE Tank Gunner (EIII #38)
2x Polis Maasan (EIII #39)
2x Mas Amedda (EIII #40)
SW Episode III Collection 2, Wave 3, Rev. 2
1x Count Dooku (EIII #13)
1x Chancellor Palpatine (EIII #14)
1x Battle Droid (EIII #17)
1x C-3PO (EIII #18)
1x Ki-Adi-Mundi (EIII #29)
1x Saesee Tiin (EIII #30)
1x Luminara Unduli (EIII #31)
1x Aayla Secura (EIII #32)
1x Vader's Medical Droid (EIII #37)
1x AT-TE Tank Gunner (EIII #38)
1x Polis Maasan (EIII #39)
1x Mas Amedda (EIII #40)
SW Episode III Collection 2, Wave 3, Rev. 3
1x Count Dooku (EIII #13)
1x Chancellor Palpatine (EIII #14)
1x Battle Droid (EIII #17)
1x C-3PO (EIII #18)
1x Ki-Adi-Mundi (EIII #29)
1x Saesee Tiin (EIII #30)
1x Luminara Unduli (EIII #31)
1x Aayla Secura (EIII #32)
1x Vader's Medical Droid (EIII #37)
1x AT-TE Tank Gunner (EIII #38)
1x Polis Maasan (EIII #39)
1x Mas Amedda (EIII #40)
SW Episode III Collection 2, Wave 4
1x Count Dooku (EIII #13)
1x Bail Organa (EIII #15)
1x Padmé (EIII #19)
1x Mon Mothma (EIII #24)
1x Vader's Medical Droid (EIII #37)
1x Polis Maasan (EIII #39)
2x Tarkin (EIII #45)
2x Senator Ask Aak (EIII #46)
2x Mon Calamri Senator (EIII #47)
SW Episode III Collection 2, Wave 4, Rev. 1
1x Padme (EIII #19)
1x Vader's Medical Droid (EIII #37)
1x Polis Maasan (EIII #39)
3x Senator Ask Aak (EIII #46)
3x Tarkin (EIII #45)
3x Mon Calamri Senator (EIII #47)
SW Episode III Collection 2, Wave 5
1x Royal Guard (EIII #23)
2x AT-TE Tank Gunner (EIII #38)
3x Utapaun Warrior (EIII #53)
3x Captain Antilles (EIII #51)
3x Zett Jukassa (Tado) (EIII #52)
To me, these case assortments look pretty well loaded with Army Builders as well as the core characters. There may be a couple of cases missing there, but this does seem pretty representative of what's at retail and what's on the way. It seems to show that Collection 2 is kind of dragging things down. Those are the characters I see that aren't selling as well. Thankfully they aren't shipping in the quantities ofCollection 1.
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Nicklab Said:
Now, as for my own credentials which you've seen fit to address, let's see if our creds match up here, okay Jesse?
Nick, wow, I'm sorry you were offended by my words, but I can't see where I called into question your "credentials". If anything I simply was saying you're on-par with anyone in this thread... That's the truth in my eyes, and I'm sorry if you feel you are different than the masses, really...
I think you should maybe heed these words you yourself said:
Please make an effort to know who you're addressing before you start talking down to them.
Because it strikes me that you're implying the REST of us don't know as much as you do... Kinda "talking down" to everyone and all that. I'm sorry you maybe feel that way about some of us...
I didn't talk "down" to you, I simply addressed your tone because it wasn't appreciated on the boards is all. I'll reiterate my words for clarity's sake...
As I said in my post:
I think being condescending in your reply isn't a necessity, as if you know this industry inside out and the rest of us are merely outside opinions...
&
You know as much as the rest of us, and I'm sure we all can see the point that Clones aren't on the pegs at the most pivotal moment for pushing a film, which is right now.
I'm not saying you are completely ignorant about toys in any way Nick. You have certainly been to many conventions, shows, and the like, and that's fantastic. I simply told you that the whole "I know more than you do, OBVIOUSLY" attitude was a bit much... You know as MUCH as the rest of us in my view, whether you do or not... Maybe you disagree, and as I said I'm sorry if you feel that way.
As far as the points you make...
I agree with the sociological POV on collectors (or U.S. culture as a whole) requiring instant gratification, that's a pretty popular mode of thought on modern society I think, and it's evident, but as marketing teaches students in the earliest classes, society and how to cater to them are keys to marketing products... It's easy enough to argue then that lack of instant gratification is sales lost... I personally see the lack of Clones as a mistake because of this, as they are popular among a broad audience... It's just my opinion though, but when a 7 year old tells me what he did, I found that to be a profound thought as I was rifling through the pegs for more Clone figures in my collection...
There's no disputing MORE are shipping, there's time for MORE to come out, no doubt... And I'll be here for them too, with open wallet arms. My point still stands though, that (at least in my area, and many other areas I'm told) Clones aren't abundant... I'm glad your neck of the woods has plenty for all though Nick, because that means things are maybe flowing better in the pipelines out there... It could simply be that Pittsburgh has bad distribution itself and the rest of the country's doing well on these figures. I know on another toy line I like that we have gotten the short end of the stick lately while others had plenty of whatever they wanted.
On the issue of Collection 1 doing better than COllection 2, I personally see them as faring rather evenly myself, for the most part, with the duller of the C2 figures sitting the most and the more abundant C1 figures sitting the most of their cases... But, like you said, Add in the fact that sometimes anecdotal evidence just doesn't carry that much weight since things can be regionally skewed by how collectors collect in a certain area. One city or region does not necessarily reflect the rest of the country.
, so where NY sees Clones galore and Collection 2 sit like they're fertalizer to grow more C1 figures, in my neck of the woods the sales are fairly even...
Put at the front of a store even, I've found that EVERYTHING sells out. My one Taret had its 4/2 overstock at a checkout aisle temporary endcap, and I've watched that thing go from overflowing with figures to nothing in a month... Impressive considering how much was hanging there not long ago.
But that is the differences people see... And everyone has their own experiences to share, that influence their opinions, and everyone has their own "credentials" too, and when I see a thread like this I see everyone as knowing as much as the next guy in my book.
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One of the biggest mistakes so far that I've seen in the Case Packs is in the latest Collection 1 Case
1x Palpatine
1x Explodin' Grievous
2x Clone Commander
2x Clone Pilot
1x Obi-Wan
2x Wookiee Warrior
1x SA Clone
1x Destroyer Droid
1x Neimoidian Warrior
That, is horrible...really horrible
Repacking old figures at 2 per case over new ones and having one of the 1 pers be the most saught after figure of the launch :(
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So should we address our future figures post to him? ???
:P
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It's taken nearly 2 months, but it does seem that a lot of the tougher army builders are becoming more readily available lately, like the Clone Commander, Clone Pilot, Blue Royal Guard and several others. Plus, the previous wave of the Destroyer Droid, Nemoudian Guard, and both Wookiees has been surprisingly easy to obtain. Of course the SA Clone is still a very difficult find, but I'm hearing more reports of people finding that too lately. So hopefully some of the more recent case assortments are getting a little bit better, and Hasbro's making some smarter decisions than usual with these things. The figures overall seem to be selling through relatively well at least.
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I don't think any of us are going to be completely happy until Hasbro does solid cases of red Royal Guards and SA Clones.
But, that's only two really hard-to-find figures out of 44, so I think Hasbro is doing alright. And the SA Clone just came out, so that only leaves one HTF figure. Not counting exclusives, which are unmitigated disasters at any chain.
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Looks like Hasbro may be catching on finally. From RS:
Store Report: Target Builds Armies
Jay: For those of you Hasbro collectors that are looking to build your armies, Target now has a specific case assortment shipping to them full of cannon fodder. According to a Target employee "[the case] had 3 figures each of the following: #41 Super Articulated Clone Trooper, #42 Neimoidian Warrior, #43 Wookie Warrior, #44 Destroyer Droid." Looks like the Big H. is starting to pay attention to customer demands. Happy Hunting!
And I've been noticing a lot more of the army builders showing up in the past week or two as well, like the Blue Guards, Clone Commanders, Gunners, and Pilots too. I think there's been another case assortment with a pretty solid mix of just these army builders as well.
Unfortunately, regarding that case RS mentioned, that Nemoidian is already seriously pegwarming, and since he really didn't see any action in the movie, he shouldn't have been a top priority there. But I guess it's the thought that counts... But Ben's right, where's the Red Guards, and some more SA Clones? That's where the money's at now for toughest to find. But at least it's getting a little better now, like Aaron already mentioned above.
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I'd say there's probably different ways Hasbro looks at case assortments. I'm sure they like having a wide variety of figures available just so there looks to be a good selection on the display. Our market seems to be focused almost exclusively on army builders, and we all know they'd sell well, and are selling well around here. Maybe to Hasbro we're a narrow market though, and while we buy a ton of figures, maybe they have a strategy of playing to other shoppers, and having pegwarmers could be part of that. In a perfect world I'm sure they'd like to sell everything, but I suppose they don't want the pegs to appear limited to only a bunch of clones and army builders. This could make certain shoppers think "wow, all they have are these few characters, and I'm not really into these generic background characters." Basically they are trying to please everyone, and that's not gonna happen all the time.
I do think they've improved with the army builders greatly for this launch. Past performance probably hasn't helped the Royal Guard situation. Remember all the Saga red guards there were? Those didn't sell, did they? I mean the ones I got were on clearance. They certainly didn't sell like other army builders, and so now there seems to be a greater demand, and they didn't really meet it.
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I do think they've improved with the army builders greatly for this launch. Past performance probably hasn't helped the Royal Guard situation. Remember all the Saga red guards there were? Those didn't sell, did they? I mean the ones I got were on clearance. They certainly didn't sell like other army builders, and so now there seems to be a greater demand, and they didn't really meet it.
Besides the obvious fact these are great figures, I think that situation was self-perpetuating initially. Before the release, people were freaking out about the availability of red vs. blue variants. And on April 3rd, everyone was throwing bitch fits about "Oh Lordy Lordy, I only see red (blue) in my area, I'll never be able to find the ultra-HTF blue (red) guard, I must go online and buy for 3x retail value". I believe people were hoarding these as soon as they found them, afraid they'd never see them again. Then of course enter scalpers/speculators into the equation. Wherever I looked, both types disappeared right quick.
I've been saying all along to chill out and eventually everyone should be able to find some of each variety. Assuming these keep shipping, logically the market will have to reach saturation and both will be readily available.
Though I still don't understand the notion behind red and blue variants instead of releasing them as completely separate figures.
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Though I still don't understand the notion behind red and blue variants instead of releasing them as completely separate figures.
Neither do I, especially considering the fact that it's not a simple paint variant (along the lines of the POTJ Scout Trooper or Saga Battle Droid). The thing that really irks me is that Hasbro packed the figure (again, still viewing both RGs as one figure) at one per case in initial assortments, and the distribution of one or the other was totally random. To me, that means that a store would have to get two cases of one assortment in order for one person to (theoretically) get one of each version. And that's with the idea that the two cases will have one blue and one red each and not two of both.
Another point of logical fallacy here is the fact that Hasbro said at C3 (according to reports) that the Red Royal Guard is the "chase" figure: now, I'd say the average person out there has no idea what film the blue guards are in, where they were, or so on. The Red Royal Guard is easily identifiable because he was with the Emperor in ROTJ. The blue guys have one shot in the new film, and in that one shot they're out of focus and off to the left. Realistically, if they *had* to make one a bit more of a struggle to find, shouldn't it have been the one that wasn't as recognizable?
This being said, I'm not one of these people that goes for the whole "thrill of the hunt." I don't enjoy making repeated trips to the same stores over and over and walking out empty handed because Hasbro thinks it would be funny to shortpack a figure or because someone needs to make their week's salary equivalent on Ebay with the figures that aren't shortpacked.
Has the army builder situation gotten better? Slightly, although the #6 Clone is still nonexistent, as is the #41 Clone, the Deluxe Clone 3 pack, and (believe it or not) the Destroyer Droid. Clone Commanders and Clone Pilots are starting to sit (the latter because the Gunship and ARC-170 still haven't shown up in numbers enough for people to buy more than one), and the AT-TE Gunner pops up once in a blue moon, but if it's a Clone and it doesn't have a jet pack, it disappears before you can say "Genetic Copy of Jango Fett."
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Clone Commanders and Clone Pilots are starting to sit (the latter because the Gunship and ARC-170 still haven't shown up in numbers enough for people to buy more than one), and the AT-TE Gunner pops up once in a blue moon, but if it's a Clone and it doesn't have a jet pack, it disappears before you can say "Genetic Copy of Jango Fett."
In this area even the Deluxe Clone w/Jetpack is now impossible to find. Sure it was easy when the Wave 2 Deluxe figures were hitting en masse, but now good luck getting one. Practically that entire Deluxe Wave 2 is gone already. Stupid Jedi Jump Obi-Wan is still clogging the pegs, but the fact that (a) the Vulture droid had variants, (b) Vader on Operating Table and Clone w/Jetpack are in high demand and (c) Yoda on Cancell is now also being shipped in the Wave 3 case - the only non Wave 1 Deluxe figure I can find w/o any trouble is the Yoda. Even the Wave 3 shipped Vader on Operating Table flys out of the store.
So here's my biggest complaint about case assortments so far... the Deluxe line should have been four waves of three, not three waves of four. Especially if you're going to have the cases fit only six figures. Better yet, ship the cases so they fit eight figures and re-ship two figures from the previous wave. So for example:
Wave 1
2x Quick Change Anakin/Vader
2x Quick Change Palpatine/Sidious
2x Deluxe General Grievous
2x Lousy Jumping Obi-Wan
Wave 2
1x Deluxe Grievous
1x Quick Change Anakin/Vader
2x Vader on Operating Table
2x Yoda on Can-Cell
2x Clone w/JetPack
Wave 3
1x Vader on Operating Table
1x Clone w/JetPack
2x Vulture Droid
2x Spider Droid
2x Stass Allie w/BARC Speeder
Wave 4
1x Vulture Droid
1x Stass Allie w/Barc Speeder
2x Clonetrooper 3-pack (all white)
2x Clonetrooper 3-pack (w/unit markings)
2x Crab Droid
Also if they could have made it so Waves 1 & 2 shipped simultaneously and Waves 3 & 4 shipped simultaneously they could have ensured that NONE of them were really peg warmers. Perhaps I'm crazy but case assortments like the ones I listed above would actually make it EASY to find the entire Deluxe Assortment AND reduce the number of eventual peg warmers.
Don't even get me started on the basic figure assortments, they are just bass-ackwards. Why SO MANY older figures are being re-assorted when the new figures first come out is anyone's guess. Hasbro instead of having the single case shipping at any one time mentality they should have two cases shipping - the "new figures" wave and the "Catch-up, replenishment wave".
When they launched the line instead of 1-12 and 13-24 being 1 per case, it should have been 2x of each figure and split the cases up. The Blue/Red Guard should have been split into two separate figures as well.
After that, since the pace has been what it is, ship the next six figures from both Collection 1 and 2 at two per case so that would bring us up to 36 figures. At the same time you're shipping what would be my Wave 3s, this would be the time to ship "catch-up" cases of 1-12 and 13-24 at one per case and with case product levels of 1/3 to 1/4 the number of "wave 3" cases you're shipping. Then when you have the next six figures (the wave 4s) from both collections shipping, have a mix of the first 18 figures from each collection in the case, packed 1-per focusing on the core characters from 1-12 or 13-24 and then 1 each of the follow-on six figures.
Keep continuing the method of large production new figure cases, smaller product "catch up" cases and we would be at 48 figures released so far, all with excellent and sensible distribution.
The fact that you're also offering "catch up" cases allows you to offer different mixes, army-builder heavy mixes, mixes that make up for the "hey we had no idea that figure would be in so much demand" foul-ups, etc...
Hasbro would never do it 'cause it just makes sense, but in the future, I do not see the line surviving unless they start making cases of 100% new 2 per case figures so that online retailers can start offering cases (and half cases) on a subscription-type basis so all collectors can remain "caught up" on their complete collections. Sure this would mean the collectors who "pick and choose" which figures they want to buy would be a bit screwed, but with the case assortments now, they're getting screwed too - at least help the completist collector who wants one or more of each figure - in the long run that collector will be buying the most product.
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I believe people were hoarding these as soon as they found them, afraid they'd never see them again. Then of course enter scalpers/speculators into the equation. Wherever I looked, both types disappeared right quick.
Without a doubt! I remember on 4/2 how there were umpteen guys fighting in to look at the pegs and the mantra they chanted was "The Royal Guard Variants are Rare!", as you watched women and children basically shoved out of the way.
Sad...
I found both on the way home that day at some Wal-Mart stores, but since 4/2 I've seen 2 Blue's and that's it. It's amazing how a hands-down superior figure to all previous versions will sell. I mean, even the red Clone from AOTC didn't sell well... Not even at first really. He was easy to get on clearance at KB. It's fun to observe. :)