The Mandalorian - Season 3 (SPOILERS possible)

[Muftak]

As the father of a severly autistic nonverbal ten year old boy with huge food anxiety issues, I continue to get so much more out of the Grogu journey than I expect. This week definitely had me flashing back to the struggles and triumphs our family has had with my son's communication device -- an iPad with dedicated buttons for key phrases he needs. He dislikes using it as a rule, but when motivated (usually through his food anxiety) he has shown full well to be in charge of his voice and able to convey his needs. I don't know if any of this was intentional on the creators' parts, but it is  something my whole family acknowledged and related to from the new episode, much like the whole "stealing Frog Lady's eggs" story was very relatable for us.

[P-Siddy]

So they were going to rebuild their homeworld with like 30 people? There have to be way more Mandalorians out there somewhere, right? At least Boba and Sabine for starters.

The one thing is this part of the plot moved way too quickly.  They just defeated the pirates and Karga gifted them some land in Nevarro to settle but they are already set to go back Mandalore.  And they kept talking about taking Mandalore back.  From who?  It seemed like pretty much a "dead" world without much activity from their visits (yes, there were many species they saw, but it didn't look like the planet was occupied by any means).  Has Moff Gideon been using Mandalore as a base all this time?  Apparently so.

I guess that wasn’t the Mythosaur that erupted out of the ground but I sure thought it was going to be.

No, but it seemed weird that the creature destroys their skiff/hovercraft and the Mandalorians go to this cave that conveniently leads them to the Great Forge.  Like, "Oh yeah, we've arrived at the Great Forge.  Too bad the valet took out our means of transportation."

[Dave]

The one thing is this part of the plot moved way too quickly.  They just defeated the pirates and Karga gifted them some land in Nevarro to settle but they are already set to go back Mandalore.  And they kept talking about taking Mandalore back.  From who?  It seemed like pretty much a "dead" world without much activity from their visits (yes, there were many species they saw, but it didn't look like the planet was occupied by any means).  Has Moff Gideon been using Mandalore as a base all this time?  Apparently so.

I griped about this frustration before.  Its an example of crappy/lazy writing that I think could be easily fixed with some better execution. 

Maybe there was always a garrison of remnant troops on Mandalore that Bo Katan and crew were building a coalition to take down and reclaim the planet, but it was never mentioned.  Then the story could play out and they get surprised by a much larger garrison and beskar troops and Moff Gideon. 

You would think that Bo Katan would be pretty aware of what is going on on Mandalore when she has been living on its moon Concordia for some time.

I still get the sense that Favreau/Filoni are only very roughly sketching out the overall season plot and then leave it up to individual writers/directors to craft their own stories, and then never try to reconcile them and get them to really gel.

[Rob]

That whole Zoom meeting was fascinating. No idea who Pellaeon is but was the woman supposed to be Rae Sloane?

He was Thrawn's right hand man in the original Heir to the Empire series back in the 90's.  A 'decent' Imperial if I remember right.

[Nicklab]

"The Spies" was a monumental episode in terms of what took place.  But it was also the culmination of what had transpired over the course of the season.  I credit Jon Favreau for not obviously beating the audience over the head with the breadcrumbs that he had been sprinkling throughout the season.

We had been wondering who was behind the TIE Interceptors and TIE Bombers that had attacked Bo-Katan's castle on Kalevala.  I had certainly been curious about how they had gotten there with no capital ship present for them to operate from.  The revelation of Moff Gideon's base on Mandalore answered that question.  It also seems as though Gideon is trying to position himself as the new Imperial leader.  The conflict between him and Pelleon seemed tense - especially with Gideon questioning him about just where and when Thrawn might re-emerge.

I appreciated the casting for Brendol Hux!  He was played by Brian Gleeson, who happens to be the brother of Domnhall Gleeson.  And Domnhall Gleeson just so happened to play General Armitage Hux in the Sequel Trilogy.  If you read the Aftermath trilogy of books, you might be a little familiar with Brendol Hux.  His character was tied to Grand Admiral Rae Sloane, but I was curious about her absence from the Shadow Council.

Count me as shocked to see that Gideon had a force of Imperial Super Commandos!  I remember them from REBELS, and it was surprising to see them re-emerge here.  But then that Beskar that Carson Teva found in the derelict shuttle came from somewhere.

The conflict between the Tribe and the Night Owls was predictable.  What wasn't was Grogu stepping in to break it up with IG-12!  He gave Axe Woves and Paz Vizsla enough of a wakeup call for them to realize that they shouldn't be fighting one another.  And it seemed like they recognized the value of that because they were the ones who flew Grogu out when the Sail Sledge got attacked by the Mandalorian Kaiju that burst out of the ground.  And I don't know if I can say that I was genuinely shocked that Paz Vizsla would sacrifice himself to save his people.  He came around and seemed to recognize how important it was for Bo-Katan and the other Mandalorians to escape from Gideon's base.  And for him to fight against 3 Praetorian Guards?    I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't heard Gideon talk about them earlier in the episode.  But sure enough, there they were.

But then there are THE SPIES.  Plural.  We know about Elia Kane, who seems to know about the pirate threat, and that they seemed to be serving as a proxy force.  Who else does that refer to?  I don't think it's Moff Gideon, despite him casting himself as a spymaster to the Shadow Council.  I have questions about Axe Woves.  His conflict with Bo-Katan is clear.  And then he escaped from the Imperial base.  But then there's the Armorer.  She left the surface before the joint Mandalorian scouting party got attacked by the Imperial Super Commandos.  Somehow she survived on Nevarro following Moff Gideon's takeover of the town in season 1, but many of the Mandalorians of the covert did not.  It seemed to me like she was harvesting the Beskar from their armor.  And I also noticed spikes on Gideon's helmet that were a lot like those on the Armorer's helmet.  I'm waiting for the proverbial other shoe to drop.

[Dave]

But then there are THE SPIES.  Plural.  We know about Elia Kane, who seems to know about the pirate threat, and that they seemed to be serving as a proxy force.  Who else does that refer to?  I don't think it's Moff Gideon, despite him casting himself as a spymaster to the Shadow Council.  I have questions about Axe Woves.  His conflict with Bo-Katan is clear.  And then he escaped from the Imperial base.  But then there's the Armorer.  She left the surface before the joint Mandalorian scouting party got attacked by the Imperial Super Commandos.  Somehow she survived on Nevarro following Moff Gideon's takeover of the town in season 1, but many of the Mandalorians of the covert did not.  It seemed to me like she was harvesting the Beskar from their armor.  And I also noticed spikes on Gideon's helmet that were a lot like those on the Armorer's helmet.  I'm waiting for the proverbial other shoe to drop.

Good theories!  I was wondering about "The Spies" in the title as spying seemed to play a minor role in the episode.

I have a hard time thinking Axe or The Armorer are spies, but I'm not sure I've got a better idea.  Maybe the "sailing Mandalorians" are spies for Gideon having survived for so long on Mandalore and potentially walking the rest right in to a trap by the forge. 

Either way, hopefully it'll be a fun wrap up to the season next week.

[P-Siddy]

Good theories!  I was wondering about "The Spies" in the title as spying seemed to play a minor role in the episode.

I have a hard time thinking Axe or The Armorer are spies, but I'm not sure I've got a better idea.  Maybe the "sailing Mandalorians" are spies for Gideon having survived for so long on Mandalore and potentially walking the rest right in to a trap by the forge. 

Yeah, I kept thinking those wounded Mandalorians were spies.  But what Nick says about The Armorer makes sense, too, regarding the Purge on Navarro and she being the only survivor.  No one asked how she survived that.... Plus, I keep wondering about her reaction to Bo-Katan's revelation about the Mythosaur.  It was dismissive in a way.  But maybe The Armorer has some deal with Gideon to allow a small number of Mandos live in exchange for some useful commodity (like Beskar).

[Jeff]

Re: The Spies/The Armorer
  - Maybe the "let's all keep our helmets on" isn't even a thing, it's just her way to hide her identity without everyone wondering why she never shows her true face?  Plus it was kind of weird that she volunteered to go on the 'away team' in the first place when she usually doesn't.  The horns on Gideon's helmet.  The way they focused on her return to the fleet and then didn't show the outcome.  They sure are making it seems like there is something there....

Re: Cloning
  - if Project Necromancer is Snoke and that's Daddy Hux's thing, then what's in all those cloning vats that Gideon walks by on his way to the secret shadow society of Imperial Warlords?  Is he doing a competing Snoke/Palps cloning thing or something else?  Why did he need/want Grogu in the first place?  For his own cloning project?  Was it like a race to see who could bring back Palps first?

Questions for next week's finale:
  - Is Bo gonna ride that mythosaur?
  - Is IGrogu-12 gonna rescue his daddy?
  - Will Thrawn/Sabine/Ahsoka make a cameo to further link to the next series (maybe this is the post-credits zinger tease?)

[P-Siddy]

Another weird thing is that Paz Viszla shoots the blast door to keep the Imps from going after the Mandos seemingly dooming himself to overwhelming odds.  After he defeats the commandos, and if the Praetorians hadn't shown up to finish the job, he would have been standing there foolishly trying to figure out how to reconnect with the others.

As for the cloning:
Gideon did mention that he was going to create a new generation of darktroopers using elements of Jedi, clones, and Mandalorians and that the army would restore order to the galaxy... perhaps they're making a new breed of clone trooper... or perhaps the Sith Troopers?  It will be interesting to see where that goes.

[Dave]

Questions for next week's finale:
  - Will Thrawn/Sabine/Ahsoka make a cameo to further link to the next series (maybe this is the post-credits zinger tease?)

I was even thinking about that.  I think you're right that there will have to be some kind of tie in, somehow, even its not critical to the current plot.

I really hope that The Armorer isn't a spy.  Its hard to believe that would be the case.  Her covert hasn't been causing problems for the Imperial remnant and I'm not sure what valuable insight she could provide.  Its Bo Katan that causes the problems and the Imperial remnant knows where she lives.

Plus all the Mandalorian dogma she has been driving.  I think it would be a tough blow to have your spiritual leader be a traitor, and all the plot they've devoted to her teachings would seem odd.

Maybe it'll happen, but they really don't need spies in this series as there isn't anything overly sneaky/devious/complicated being plotted by the Mandalorians. 

[Nicklab]

Maybe it'll happen, but they really don't need spies in this series as there isn't anything overly sneaky/devious/complicated being plotted by the Mandalorians. 

The Covert has been in hiding since the beginning of the series.  And Moff Gideon made it clear to the Shadow Council that he views the Mandalorians as a threat to the resurgence of the Empire.  That says a lot to me about spies gathering information and acting against groups they might be involved with.

[Dave]

Maybe it'll happen, but they really don't need spies in this series as there isn't anything overly sneaky/devious/complicated being plotted by the Mandalorians. 

The Covert has been in hiding since the beginning of the series.  And Moff Gideon made it clear to the Shadow Council that he views the Mandalorians as a threat to the resurgence of the Empire.  That says a lot to me about spies gathering information and acting against groups they might be involved with.

The Covert was nothing but bounty hunters and others living in the shadows of Navarro.  They had no real plan and barely any aspirations for returning to Mandalore.  They thought it was a toxic wasteland.  And The Armorer battled and defeated a pile of Gideon's troops.  Not sure why Gideon would go after her and The Covert if they were on the payroll.

Bo Katan wanted to return to Mandalore, but up until an episode ago her crew and The Covert were rivals/enemies.

I know Moff Gideon said that the Mandalorians were a threat to the Shadow Council, but there is no evidence Mandalore is meaningful to anyone other than Moff Gideon and the Mandalorians that want to go back to their destroyed home world.

I honestly think this is just a weak narrative that is being used by the writers to create conflict to drive the story.   The writers could have described why Moff Gideon cares about Mandalore.  Maybe its super strategically located for his remnant Empire.  Maybe its got some natural resources (beskar, kyber crystals, etc?) that is critical to his larger plan, but there don't appear to be active mines.

I'm going to try and not bitch anymore about the writing, but if they're going to get twisty and clever with the writing (e.g. spies in the midst of the protagonists), they should first get a coherent narrative that we can follow.  I can deal with the weak narrative driving fun pulpy conflict, but they need to get things straight before they get clever.

[Nicklab]

Weak narrative?  At some point I think some of this is on the viewer and their capacity to follow along with things over the course of several seasons worth of a series.  Frankly, I think that weak writing is when a screenwriter beats the audience over the head with plot points by making things blatantly obvious.  I appreciate writers taking time to develop things subtly and over time.  Because how am I picking up all of this stuff?

-Gideon's forces only attacked Bo-Katan's home on Kalevala AFTER she and Din Djarin had been to the mines of Mandalore.  The story that had circulated about the planet was that it was poisoned, and it kept Mandalorians from returning.  Gideon benefited from the story that the planet was unihabitable, and did not want Mandalorians to return and threaten his operations on the planet.  And the Mandalorian survivors made a point of saying that any who attempted to leave the planet were shot down.

-Gideon's history with the ISB and leading the Empire's purge of Mandalore.  He saw something there to be conquered.  And much of the storytelling that has developed about the Imperial era is that the Empire regarded planets as the source of commodities needed to maintain their power.

-Beskar became a valuable commodity - that's been a recurring theme through the whole series.  And Gideon said it again when he made clear all of his evil plans that he regarded Mandalore as a planet with great resources.  He armored his troops with Beskar.  If there was any kind of a weak narrative, it was Gideon monologuing to the Mandalorians before trying to destroy them all.

-Gideon also made it clear that his cloning efforts are geared towards using the Jedi and Mandalorians to make what he regards as his ultimate soldiers.  That's at the heart of his research that would use Grogu's genetic material.

-Bo-Katan explicitly said that Mandalore was too powerful to be conquered, but the infighting between Mandalorians brought them down.  That much was clear in a lot of canon material from the Clone Wars, through Rebels and now into this series.  Their factions have been their true weakness.

I'm not trying to be adversarial here.  But I've seen all of this laid out over the course of three seasons.  There have been some tangents along the way, but there's a lot that has been leading in this direction.

[Dave]

Weak narrative?  At some point I think some of this is on the viewer and their capacity to follow along with things over the course of several seasons worth of a series.  Frankly, I think that weak writing is when a screenwriter beats the audience over the head with plot points by making things blatantly obvious.  I appreciate writers taking time to develop things subtly and over time.  Because how am I picking up all of this stuff?

I'm not trying to be adversarial here.  But I've seen all of this laid out over the course of three seasons.  There have been some tangents along the way, but there's a lot that has been leading in this direction.

I think you're generously connecting dots that aren't really there to make the current season/episode's plot hold together better than it actually does.  There was virtually nothing meaningful about Mandalore in the first two seasons.

Season 1:
Din Djarin is a bounty hunter that stumbles on Grogu.  Adventures galore.  Din tries to return Grogu to "his kind", the Jedi.

Grand Moff Gideon's intentions are to capture Grogu for his genetics so they can be used in creating Dark Troopers.

There is almost no mention of Mandalore other than the religious holy land of The Covert.  In the last frame of the season you see Moff Gideon with the Darksaber.

Season 2:
Din Djarin is still a bounty hunter trying to return Grogu to the Jedi.  Adventures galore.

Bo Katan is introduced halfway through the season with her intention to "retake Mandalore".  They never mention who they need to retake Mandalore from.  The Darksaber becomes a key McGuffin (so Bo Katan can unite all remaining Mandalorians in her quest) in addition to returning Grogu to the Jedi while protecting him from Moff Gideon and Dr. Pershing's Dark Trooper plan.  Moff Gideon barely/never mentions Mandalore other than to gloat about its destruction.  Its not hinted at that it is key to his plans, but we know he likes beskar.

Grogu is delivered to Luke, Moff Gideon is captured and the Darksaber is acquired.  The missions are complete.

I don't know what the overall plan was, but I firmly believe Grogu was not intended to stay in the show beyond season 2 and was shoe-horned back in via BoBF via non-sequitur episodes because he was a fan/merchandising favorite. 

Other than Bo Katan's brief screen time, there is almost no mention of Mandalore other than the religious holy land of The Covert.

Season 3:
In between random episodes with Lizzo, and Dr. Pershing having moon pops on Coruscant there is lots of content about Mandalore, Bo Katan's intention to "retake it" (but we still have no idea from whom), and Moff Gideon's escape using beskar equipped troopers, and the Shadow Council are introduced along with the concept that Mandalore is important to the Empire.  Heck, Bo Katan's soliloquy at 17:35 in episode 7 talks about "reawakened dormant species" as the major threat in retaking Mandalore, not Moff Gideon or any imperial remnant.

I challenge you to find any indication prior to the most recent episode (#7) that Moff Gideon cares about Mandalore as anything more than his and the Empire's original conquest of power to defeat a powerful, defiant culture that doesn't want to bend the knee to the Empire.  Sure he cares about beskar, but the planet itself after it got annihilated?  It appeared there was plenty of beskar that he harvested over the years from dead Mandalorian armor and other places, but there didn't seem to be any indication he was actively mining it (and there still isn't any clear indication). 

Maybe I missed the hints along the way, but its still my position that they've sloppily introduced the conflict on Mandalore to drive the plot.  Moff Gideon's base could be anywhere, even on a star cruiser or an outer rim planet, but the writers chose Mandalore to create conflict.  Again, I'm okay with that, but will be annoyed if they get too twisty and clever after many, many episodes where Mandalore was little more than a halcyon homeland for Bo Katan or religious pilgrimage for The Covert.

[Nicklab]

I’d buy some of that if we were dealing with an amateur screenwriter who had no experience with an epic, episodic IP.  But it’s Jon Favreau.  Check out his IMDB for his writing credits.  His contributions to the MCU alone give him some foundation in mapping out a journey over the long haul.  And his right hand running the show as an EP is Dave Filoni. He has been at the right hand of George Lucas as the story of the Mandalorians was laid out in canon in the Clone Wars.  And it was built further - BY FILONI - as he was the show runner for Star Wars Rebels, where more of that story was told.  Oh, and they brought George onto the set on a regular basis.  But then WTF do I know?